[Politics] Yang Gang 2020
- Thread starter Marik2
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- Apr 1, 2009
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Not really, infact right now the polling has Biden beating trump by the widest margin with 52.6% Bernie is only 50% and Warren is 48.9% Really most of the democratic candidates show they would win against trump today, but Biden is the only one who wins all the polls shown here. [https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html]MrCalavera said:
The thing that will give trump the best chance of managing to win is how the democratic party acts since there is a very good chance of Biden getting the nomination. If the democrats come off as divided then trump will latch onto that like a tick and use it relentlessly, not to mention the blatant lies he will come up with.
The only reason a shit candidate like Biden would get the nomination is because of useless surface-level reasoning like the above.Worgen said:
The following is Biden on a "good" day-- the debate after which the media hailed him as doing better than the previous two and attacked Julian Castro as being "mean": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUYVTkFOXx0
[tweet t="https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1172964269383663621"]
He's not going to win. And if he does, the Democratic Party deserves to lose. It will have chosen extremely poorly.
Rather than expecting me and many others to vote for that detritus, make peace now with the fact that Joe Biden will lose in one way or another, and I cannot stress this enough, pick a better nominee. The real important fight is in the primary. Yes, just like 2016. You send out a dud, you lose.
- Apr 1, 2009
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Stop being stupid, its shit like this that gave us trump in the first place. This is the problem with the left, we purity test hard core, its why the right will always be much more politically effective, because the far right will support any right wing candidate that gets them closer to what they want, the left seems like it would legit rather see the world burn then get anyone who is less pure then they want. I don't want Biden to win either but I'm not so delusional to pretend that I wouldn't rather have 5 of him then a single fucken trump. By taking the position you are you might as well be voting and campaigning for trump yourself.Seanchaidh said:
It's not a purity test to oppose Biden. It's having thought about it for more than five seconds. The problem with "the left" is that it won't go along with the right-wing shitbags who have coopted the party-- or rather, the problem with "the left" is that it often isn't represented by the party that is supposed to represent it. What the fuck is "left" about Biden's bankruptcy bill? What the fuck is "left" about Biden's crime bill? What the fuck is "left" about palling around with segregationists, and talking incoherently about the need for better parenting in response to a question about reparations for slavery?Worgen said:
Biden will not get the vast majority of people any closer to what they might want.
No, by taking the position you are, you might as well be voting and campaigning for Trump yourself. The purpose of a primary is choosing the best candidate. Now get to it! You think Yang is it, fine. You think Warren is it, whatever, great. You think Harris is it? OK, I won't judge. You think Sanders is it? You're correct.
There is one very simple way to not have to deal with the problem you're talking about, and that is N-O-T NOT selecting Biden as the nominee. You're not going to win with him, with or without my vote. Make peace with that and work to get someone else. Any strategy or effort predicated on the possibility of Biden winning the primary will at best be irrelevant because he won't. If he does win, it will be futile, because he will lose the general anyway. Don't torture yourself. Don't torture the rest of us. Just do whatever is in your power to make sure he isn't the nominee and you will have done as much as you can to defeat Donald Trump. Biden is a non-starter. Banish the idea from your mind that he can be president. He can't.
I'm not a US citizen, and I'm far from a hard core Sanders supporter, but can the Democrats not do better than Biden? Yeah, he'd be much better than Trump, because a chimpanzee would be, and Trump is a real possibility, but, c'mon.
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Ahh, ok, I see the problem here, you think the democratic party is left wing. Its not, its a pretty moderate to kinda left party, it has some more left wing members and some more right wing members but its a pretty moderate party in general.Seanchaidh said:
Biden will get the vast majority of people closer to what they want because what they want is anything but trump.
The polls all show you are just wrong and crying about it wont change things.
As I said before, we like to think the democratic party is left wing but its actually pretty moderate. Like it or not chances are the moderate majority of the primary voters will probably go Biden, even now hes polling extremely well.Thaluikhain said:
Polls at this stage are unlikely to reflect the state of play after the final candidates are going at eachother.Worgen said:
Rather than the polls, look at the most recent example we have to make a comparison: Clinton vs Trump. Why do you think Clinton lost?
Chief reasons would be: extensive political baggage; a tepid centrist platform people found uninspiring, which failed to motivate the vote; associations with the political establishment, which fed into the Trump campaign's narrative.
Every single one of these factors acts against Biden much more than almost any other candidate.
Remember, Clinton polled better than Sanders before the primaries, when people were asked who had the better chance of success... but that didn't last. According to later polls, Sanders would have performed better in a Presidential election against Trump, because he appeals to a broader cross-section and has a greater motivational impact. Polls also showed that continued exposure benefitted him, while it harmed Clinton.
Polls can be meaningful, but you have to look deeper.
- Apr 1, 2009
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The polls there were actually pretty good. Most of them showed Clinton winning but it was pretty close and Clinton did win the popular vote, for however much that matters, which is nothing till someone wins the popular vote by enough and the electoral collage goes to the less popular one that it triggers demand for change and lawsuits.Silvanus said:
Actually one of the bigger reasons would probably be states they thought the democratic party had on lockdown that ended up just being a soft lock so they didn't visit them. And her message mainly seeming like it was being against trump instead of her own vision for the future. Because she might have been correct in her rhetoric, that doesn't matter if the population feels shes wrong.
We don't know if he would have fared better, we can speculate but we have no idea if he would have won. Because your dealing with a moderate populous who is scared of change and it sounds like his health care system would make private insurance illegal which most american's aren't ok with.
I believe the point of that is to try to eliminate what I think is refered to as the "welfare trap" where the problem is that when people's conditions or income improve to the point that they no longer need/qualify for a certain welfare program, losing that welfare puts them in a worst position than they were when they qualified for welfare. Simple example: person makes $1000 a month and gets $500 in welfare for a net of $1500. They then get a raise to get $1100 a month which pushes them over the hypothetical threshold so they no longer get welfare and their $100 raise just became a $400 cut. Reality is often a bit more complicated than that but the principle remains the same. Since it would be poison for a Democrat to suggest cutting welfare programs even if they are being replaced by a UBI, this allows for the existing programs to remain in place while providing a smoother way for people to eventually get off those programsPseudonym said:
They don't, though.Worgen said:
The party base is more left than the politicians, that's pretty clear. And a huge number of independents are to the left of the typical Democratic Party politician.
You're in the middle of telling us that polls prove that Biden is going to win the primary-- with his less than 30% of the vote, no less.Worgen said:
Well, guess what: we have extensive polling about Bernie Sanders going head to head against Trump from 2015 and 2016. It happened closer to that general election than any poll about the 2020 race that doesn't make use of a time machine. It may surprise you to learn that Bernie Sanders tended to do significantly better than Hillary Clinton in those polls about who would fare better against Trump. Repeatedly 5-10% better than Hillary Clinton. And he did significantly better in the rust belt, that so-called 'blue wall' which failed Hillary.
So,
And furthermore, I'm not 'crying' about Biden. I'm not going to vote for Biden ever. I'm letting you and anyone else who might care know that now so you may start the process of getting over that rather than impotently whining about your coalition predictably not coming together if by whatever quirk of fate he becomes the nominee. Choose a better candidate or lose.
- Apr 1, 2009
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Yeah, see your a trump supporter. Maybe not directly but when Biden ends up winning you will ***** and moan and do everything you can to stop other people from voting for him to "teach the democrats a lesson" and we will end up with more trump, like we did in 2016 and the Bernie bros bitching and moaning and protest voting. Because people are too dumb to realize this shit matters and like it or not, you have to make due with a lesser of two evils.Seanchaidh said:
The problem with upstart progressives is that they don't know how to play politics. While Biden flutters and falls on his stupid potentially election damaging gaffes, his more pragmatic, and more intelligent advisors are going to every union, and left-leaning group, and saying if you don't support us, you will not get government contracts, our support for your issues, etc.
You want to know how I know this it's because the same thing happened with the recent New York Governor race.
Whereas with Warren, and Sanders it takes for granted that unions will be supported no matter whose side they support, which is crazy.
Warren and Sanders are not going to win on flowers, and kittens at this rate.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cuomo-won-punish-wfp-nixon-endorsement-article-1.3943571
You want to know how I know this it's because the same thing happened with the recent New York Governor race.
Whereas with Warren, and Sanders it takes for granted that unions will be supported no matter whose side they support, which is crazy.
Warren and Sanders are not going to win on flowers, and kittens at this rate.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cuomo-won-punish-wfp-nixon-endorsement-article-1.3943571
Biden winning the primary is the Democrats raising a white flag. This much should be obvious since this already happened before.
Worgen said:
Sanctimonious crap about the virtue of accepting the lesser of two evils aside, getting rid of losing campaigns like Biden's are exactly what primaries are for. He. Does. Not. Have. To. Be. Nominated.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgbpb/a-major-labor-union-just-endorsed-bernie-sandersGergar12 said:
Sanders is aggressively courting union support. He not only shows up at strikes, but frequently puts out notices of strike actions on his campaign app so that people can show up and support them. He's also been promoting the unionization of people who aren't unionized as well as working to better their conditions (Amazon, Wal-Mart). Unions would either be foolish or sold out by their leaders to choose Biden (which can certainly happen, and indicates a problem with the structure of the organization and its process of coming to decisions). Why should unions want the VP of the guy who promised but then did nothing to try to deliver card check? It makes no sense.
- Apr 1, 2009
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Of course he doesn't have to be nominated, but he probably will and you have to accept that. I don't want him to be the nominated candidate but as I said before, any dem over trump.Seanchaidh said:
He probably won't, though.Worgen said:
And in any case, as I said I already have a plan for if he is. Never Biden.
Has Yang said anything about the UAW walkout? I'm assuming no, but I could be pleasantly surprised (or the opposite, potentially).
And as for this "you're actually a Trump supporter" bullshit, I don't feel the need to lend any support to attempts to go back to how we got here so we can do it again. That's not my interest. Pick a new direction.
Why are you still on about this? I've told you my voting intention, you're not going to change it with this sanctimonious crap, and you've decided that not voting for your candidate = "crying" for some reason. If you want me (and many, many others) to vote for a Democrat, don't nominate Biden. This isn't hard. Just don't.Worgen said:
And as for this "you're actually a Trump supporter" bullshit, I don't feel the need to lend any support to attempts to go back to how we got here so we can do it again. That's not my interest. Pick a new direction.