Poll: A Certain Double Standard

[Phasmal]

Gender roles are annoying and stupid.
It irritates me when male friends of mine are shocked (shocked!) that I know how to do `manly` things, like playing poker. Which apparently requires penis to learn.

This is how I see it- Everything I do is ladylike.
I'm a lady doing what I like.

However, emasculation and men being feminine being SO WRONG is another thing that pisses me off, probably more than how people get onto me about being unfeminine.
It presumes that you are a man by outside factors. That masculinity is about being strong but itself is so weak it needs to be coddled by women acting a certain way as to not `emasculate` others around them.
Nobody is going to force you into a dress because I can open my own jars.
If you're male-identifying, you're a man, relax.
And if you wanna do something feminine, fuck what everyone else thinks.

Basically, if you want to conform to gender norms, good for you, but don't look down on those who do not and vice versa.

 

[Winthrop]

* It's extremely rare to find complaints on roles from the gender that benefits from them.
* The majority of gender chastising seems to come from within the same gender.

I agree completely, especially with your second point. All the time (even in this thread) we have people saying "Why are girls sluts and men players?" But you know what, I've only ever heard one guy call a woman a slut but he calls literally every woman a slut and makes horrible racist comments at least twice a day. The people calling girls sluts seem to be other girls 9 times out of 10. Same goes for being a player. Men call other men players. Though I think its worth noting that this attitude dies down later in life and exists only in a small but vocal social group.

 

[Bertylicious]

I hate people that make sweeping generalisations.

 

[mechashiva77]

I don't care what you do with your life. Just don't do things for the sole purpose of avoiding gender roles or endorsing them, either because you don't want to fit the picture or do.

What if avoiding gender roles IS what makes them happy?

 

[Karoshi]

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

Not to pick on you, but I've never liked that analogy. One can mess around with the concept though:

"A wall socket that can turn on any plug is an amazing wall socket. A plug that can plug into any wall socket is an amazing plug."

"A wrench that can turn any bolt is an amazing wrench. A bolt that can be turned by any wrench is a weird bolt."

"A mailbox that can hold any package is useful. A package that can fit in any mailbox is small."

How about one more apt to this site?

"A console that can play any game is an amazing console. A game that can be played on any console is not defined by traditional video game values."

Haha, loving this.

As for the poll, where the hell is the "It's ok for men and women to break gender roles" option? That would be the only logical thing to say.

 

[RubyT]

Gender roles are tough.

If I had kids, I would try to keep them away from them. I wouldn't give my boy guns, I wouldn't give my daughter dolls. They would get LEGO, I've already decided on that. And I'd hate for my daughter to grow up wanting to become a princess, model or stewardess.

OTOH, some gender roles are a must for me. While I, as a man, am terrible at repairing anything, I would never wear dresses or skirts. Maybe a kilt though. And when my make friends would start to, I'd be seriously irritated, to say the least.

 

[Subscriptism]

I'm fine with them existing but people should be allowed to break them if they want. After all they are bound to exist due the simple fact that men and women are different. Gender roles will exist no matter what in jobs like mechanics and builders, men are just more interested (and some would argue more physically appropriate to a job where you haul heavy things all day) in those roles than women. Same goes for hairdresser, stylist and seamstress. Those gender roles are there because women like those things more than men on the whole.

It's just the way our societies are, I have no problem with it but people should be allowed to break them if they want.

 

[mechashiva77]

What can I say?

Sexism isn't dead yet.

I mean, I think my country (America, and north of the Mason-Dixon line) is becoming more progressive in terms of acceptance of people functioning outside traditional roles, but we have a long way to go.

Personal note: the disparity between 'girl who sleeps around = whore' and 'guy who sleeps around = playa' pisses me off to no end. If you sleep with people for the sake of sleeping with people, you're a whore. Period. Gotten into several rather vocal disagreements with douchebags of various flavors over that.

What's wrong with that? If both parties are aware that it's just sleeping around, and they stay safe I don't see the problem with it.

 

[Tycon]

How has this not been posted yet?

Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

You make an interesting point but isn't that more of a social perspective problem. Although the dictionary(online dictionary)specifically states slut as being an immoral/dirty woman, when I hear the word slut it generally translates to me as a promiscuous female and player is a promiscuous male and nothing more. Its just a word title that describes the behavior of a person and really should have no negative or positive attachments to it, slut is a fine word at conveying a females behavioral habits and should not be viewed as offensive imo. However its people identifying that behavior as traditionally immoral and associate it with being bad/immoral.

Also i'd like people to refrain from the "Key dick" defense because it is a clever metaphor but its quite a stretch, if any thing sexual double standards are biology's fault, as a male you can spread nearly an indefinite amount of seeds and bear many children so you have the option to choose many partners that are fertile. As a female you only get 1 every 9 months and a set amount of eggs through out your life, so you pretty much have to choose he right mate to bear that one child with, especially with the tradition of choosing a mate with resources.

Disclaimer: Not everyone wants to have kids and some people just can't but you're still subconsciously under the influence of your biological nature. In a perfect world there wouldn't be double standards but in my opinion this is the root of male vs female sexual double standards.

 

[mechashiva77]

I don't think it's wrong, per sec.

Not classy/not a good look, sure, but not wrong.

I get annoyed when people either: brag about it, like it's something people should commend them for, or apply the 'I'm a playa, she's a whore' double standard.

That's understandable. I couldn't tell you meant that by your previous post. ( I really just wanted to say the first sentence, but that would risk mod wrath o__o)

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

other [http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/beat%20a%20dead%20horse]


Given a choice, I pick a dutiful housewife when playing Skyrim, like Camilla Valeris. An adventurous one would likely go fight a troll and leave dishes in the sink. I also downloaded a mod so that she gives me more than 1 meal per day. I do all the work while she sits in the cozy hearthed home reading my extensive library of ancient texts and dressing in enchanted jewelry I leave for her. She might as well make me 3 square meals.

 

[Genocidicles]

I don't have a problem with men doing feminine things, but I worry about what would happen if that becomes the norm.

I don't want to wear makeup or get manicures, but what if that becomes expected of men (like one could say it's expected of women now)? Would I lose out on a job because I didn't wear makeup to the interview? Would not wearing it be seen as 'not putting the effort in', like not combing my hair and not having a shave the morning before the interview?

 

[Lieju]

I mean we shouldn't necessarily assume gender roles are bad as a lot of people constantly confuse it with the negative outlook of sexism. If only people could choose to follow gender roles and not get chastised for their choice, if only...

But if those gender roles didn't exist, people couldn't get chastised for falling into them. If a girl likes pink and flowers, it's okay. But don't assume that all girls like that stuff. I didn't, and yet I got barbies and ponies as gifts... I specifically asked for 'monster-dolls', and one of the relatives bought me this overly cute dragon-thing, saying "We had hard time finding a monster-toy that's fitting for a girl."
At that moment, at 7, I became an advocate for gender-equality. Because boys had all the gool toys.

These kinds of gender-roles change depending on culture and time, what is girly now can be manly the next century.
Why care? I don't care about the sex or gender of people, except if I'm interested in them romantically.

I spent a lot of time with my grandparents as a kid, and they had very traditional gender-roles; grandma did the house work inside, grandpa outside (for the most part). But I always liked the outdoorsy stuff more, so I usually helped grandpa.

And I was allowed to do that. But it's not too long ago that at home boys weren't expected to help with housework, so of course grown men couldn't do it either.

 

[Easton Dark]

I like to cook. Is that against gender roles?

Men are supposed to only like to barbecue ribs or something.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

CAPTIN KEYDICK!!!!?? WHERE? WHERE IS HE I'LL KILL HIM

you pulled a captin keydick..BAD! bad analogy!

To be honest, every single time I read this I need to restrain myself from making a joke which would probably get me burned at the stake, but NO MORE restraining my immature tencendies I say.

Spoiler: Beware, mature (well, IMMATURE) content inside

Spoiler: Yes this is bad and I issue a trigger warning, might be necessary.

And a lock that doesn't open at all needs several guys with power tools to force it open.

Or you could just replace the door.

On topic:
Gender roles bad, blabla, maybe let everyone be themselves blabla, done to death blablub.

 

[uneek]

Never was it my intention to shut anyone up, let alone you in particular.

Never mind. I read more forward. Now I know what you meant.

About your comment:

Are you saying people shouldn't do things they aren't capable of, eventhough they might have fun doing it?

Last time I checked, the phrase "aren't capable of" meant "couldn't do it even if you tried". I'm sure it'd be fun to grow wings and fly, but I'm sure as hell not capable of that.

 

[uneek]

Gender Roles SHOULD exist, because men and women are, quite bluntly, not the same, and if gender roles didn't exist it would be because people were artificially forcing them not to exist to maintain some misguided sense of equality. Men and women, generally speaking, enjoy different things, and thus gender roles exist.

What I am against, however, is the enforcement of gender roles in any way. As much as men and women are different, each individual is different too, and this leads to the inevitability of those who are not the same as what their gender role describes. There is nothing wrong with this, and people like that should not be forced to fill the gender role usually associated to their gender.

Those 2 paragraphs seem very contradictory to me. You do know what gender roles are, right? Let's try to be more specific. Genders are different biologically. people are different mentally.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I'm going to re-contextualize the "gender rolls" discussion just a little bit.

I have a gay male friend. But the thing about him is that he is one of the most quintessentially "straight" people I know. He watches Football (American Football) And gets upset with me when I call it HandEgg. He plays Call of Duty and Halo. He chastises me for liking musicals and My Little Pony (And I'm strait and find no shame in it) He doesn't present himself well in the way you'd expect a stereotypical gay person would. He drives a Mustang, and drinks beer, etc.

People think he's misrepresenting himself, but that's not the case.

When you think about the girls who like football and videogames and hate manicures, makeup and other girly things.
Would you think they're misrepresenting themselves?

If you saw a woman wearing pants you wouldn't look twice,
If you saw a man in a dress you'd call him a transvestite.

I don't really like that Male oriented stuff is open season, while female oriented stuff it taboo.
Like you put MLP in the OP, I would have never said MLP is a girl's show. (A kid's show, sure but not a girl's show) Is that only because I've been watching it from the start, and the only other people I know who watch it are guys? (Bronies? I've never heard of a Femmnie)

It seems to me like Shame is a male dominated emotion.
This you can't like "girly" things or else people will think you're gay! and women can like "manly" things with no consequence.

Being a guy (A strait guy) who likes some girly things I don't like the double standards. But they're not going anywhere.

 

[Celi]

Something I've been struggling with a lot recently is how much of the difference between men and women is truly inherent differences and howmuch is just societal. It's generally thought that there's at least some fundamental psychological distinction. From my own experiences, I would say that the difference is, at the very most, that each gender is predisposed slightly to certain personality traits, but I'm not a psychologist or anything.

It's not that it actually matters--even if, for instance, boys are inherently more fond of action figures than dollhouses (which I doubt) that's no reason to ridicule or even discourage a boy for playing with dolls. I just think it would help with discussions like this to know where the line was.

 

[DrunkenMonkey]

I mean we shouldn't necessarily assume gender roles are bad as a lot of people constantly confuse it with the negative outlook of sexism. If only people could choose to follow gender roles and not get chastised for their choice, if only...

But if those gender roles didn't exist, people couldn't get chastised for falling into them. If a girl likes pink and flowers, it's okay. But don't assume that all girls like that stuff. I didn't, and yet I got barbies and ponies as gifts... I specifically asked for 'monster-dolls', and one of the relatives bought me this overly cute dragon-thing, saying "We had hard time finding a monster-toy that's fitting for a girl."
At that moment, at 7, I became an advocate for gender-equality. Because boys had all the gool toys.

These kinds of gender-roles change depending on culture and time, what is girly now can be manly the next century.
Why care? I don't care about the sex or gender of people, except if I'm interested in them romantically.

I spent a lot of time with my grandparents as a kid, and they had very traditional gender-roles; grandma did the house work inside, grandpa outside (for the most part). But I always liked the outdoorsy stuff more, so I usually helped grandpa.

And I was allowed to do that. But it's not too long ago that at home boys weren't expected to help with housework, so of course grown men couldn't do it either.

Sorry I bungled up my post a lot, I meant to say if only people can could choose to follow or not follow respective gender roles and not get chastised for the choice made.