Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Thaluikhain]

You don't just up and become transgender so as to freak out the sort of people making a fuss over this.

a man (who identifies as a woman) being in the woman's locker room

No, a woman. A woman was in the women's locker room. And everyone loses their minds. This bullshit is constantly brought up to attack trans people. There is talk about criminalising trans people who go to the wrong bathroom or whatever. If they go in the one for the gender they identify is, the usual suspects freak out. If they go in the other one, the usual suspects freak out.

Would it have been better if this woman had gone to the men's locker room instead?

Hell, should we ban cis women that don't look like some arbitrary and undefined ideal of femininity from locker rooms as well? "Look at her haircut, she doesn't look like a woman, I feel scared!"

 

[jklinders]

Woman in the story is transphobic. The fact that she keeps using the wrong gender makes me suspect that if the trans person she was complaining about had all the surgery and whatnot and she found out she was trans, she would still have a problem.

The policy should be clearly posted as Dirtyhipsters noted and violation of said policy should be addressed appropriately. The article makes it sound as if she lost her membership after simply making a complaint. I'm a little skeptical that it was that simple.

Now I found a source piece that included this tidbit from the LGBT community. I like the way they think.

"Char Davenport is a professor at Saginaw Valley State University as well as Delta College. She's a prominent member of the transgender community. Davenport is also a transgender woman.

Davenport said she is not surprised by Cormier's reaction. At the same time she said she applauds Planet Fitness for understanding the needs of the transgender community.

According to Davenport, Planet Fitness and any other facility looking to support the transgender community, she insists they must have the proper facility so that supporting LGBT rights doesn't impose on those who may not have a full understanding of her community.

"Private showers and changing areas really would go a long way in resolving these issues," Davenport said."

http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint

Some partitions or even a stall or two would not be a bad idea. Frankly with such a massive number of people being prudes elsewhere, expecting that bar to be lowered in a gym locker room is weird. Sometimes just saying that people should be completely comfortable with someone who is physically the opposite gender letting it all hang out in front of them is actually counterproductive. There is no one size fits all solution and some people may be legitimately and unpleasantly surprised.

 

[elvor0]

You don't just up and become transgender so as to freak out the sort of people making a fuss over this.

a man (who identifies as a woman) being in the woman's locker room

No, a woman. A woman was in the women's locker room. And everyone loses their minds. This bullshit is constantly brought up to attack trans people. There is talk about criminalising trans people who go to the wrong bathroom or whatever. If they go in the one for the gender they identify is, the usual suspects freak out. If they go in the other one, the usual suspects freak out.

Lets not boil it down too simple here, it was not just a case of a woman being in the womens locker room and every going mental.

Thing is, from her point of view, a male just strolled into the womens locker room. Now while there is nothing wrong with being trans, unfortunetly if you just say "I'm a Woman", while still very clearly being a man who is "just" saying "I'm a woman" and stroll into an area where men aren't supposed to be, that IS going to make the people in there uncomfortable. Now, Transgendered people absolutely should be able to go into where they feel comfortable, but as long as they're not seriously deluded, they are going to have to accept that some people aren't going to feel right with a person that biologically resembles the opposite gender getting naked in front of them in locker rooms.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Lets not boil it down too simple here, it was not just a case of a woman being in the womens locker room and every going mental.

Yeah, it is. It really is.

Thing is, from her point of view, a male just strolled into the womens locker room.

Yeah, from her point of view. If she thought the woman was a panda, it doesn't make her right about that either.

Now, Transgendered people absolutely should be able to go into where they feel comfortable, but as long as they're not seriously deluded, they are going to have to accept that some people aren't going to feel right with a person that biologically resembles the opposite gender getting naked in front of them in locker rooms.

Sure, and? Some people aren't going to feel right about black people, the disabled, the mentally ill, homosexuals etc

 

[DEAD34345]

The problem doesn't come from the transgender situation at all, it comes from the fact that we still arbitrarily separate men and women into separate locker rooms (and bathrooms, and whatever else). The real solution would be to just have unisex locker rooms everywhere and for everyone to just stop caring. Don't they generally have little enclosed spaces anyway, so you don't see other people getting changed regardless?

Unfortunately, that solution is not likely to happen any time soon, and there's no perfect solution without it. You can either please the people who are not OK sharing their locker room with someone who appears to be the opposite sex, or you can please the people who appear to be the opposite sex but do not consider themselves as such. In a strict moral sense, the latter makes more sense to me, since I believe people should be able to identify as and behave as whatever sex they want, but I also couldn't really complain too much about the former. If you boil it down to making the least amount of people uncomfortable as possible, that would probably be the one to go with, as transgender people are quite a bit rarer than the people who would freak out at the sight of a "man" in the women's locker room.

 

[elvor0]

Lets not boil it down too simple here, it was not just a case of a woman being in the womens locker room and every going mental.

Yeah, it is. It really is.

No it isn't, it's a guy identifying as a woman, that is not the same as a biological woman and you know that, you can't have transgenderism be special and non existant at the same time.

Thing is, from her point of view, a male just strolled into the womens locker room.

Yeah, from her point of view. If she thought the woman was a panda, it doesn't make her right about that either.

What? What kind of argument is that? That's such a rediculously obtuse statement, I choked on my tea. If I just see someone that is clearly biologically male why would I not be correct in stating that they are male? I can't read minds. If you want to pull that card, just saying you're a Panda doesn't biologically make you appear as one either and you'd have no right to freak out if people questioned you being a Panda while not even remotely resembling one. Cormier's not wrong that a being of the male sex is standing in front of her, no matter how much the transwoman identifies as a woman.

Take it literally: from her point of VIEW, she sees what is biologically a male, how is she immedietly supposed to know that this man identifies as a woman? And even if she did, that doesn't change what is physically in front of her.

Now, Transgendered people absolutely should be able to go into where they feel comfortable, but as long as they're not seriously deluded, they are going to have to accept that some people aren't going to feel right with a person that biologically resembles the opposite gender getting naked in front of them in locker rooms.

Sure, and? Some people aren't going to feel right about black people, the disabled, the mentally ill, homosexuals etc

That is true, and obviously that's not right and perhaps neither was the way the lady in the story behaved either. But I don't think the lady was being off to be spiteful, but because from her point of view, a bloke walked into the womens changing rooms, she has no way of knowing this is a transwoman and she was concerned for herself. Judging by the story, Cormier went to complain, not because there was a transwoman in the locker room, but because from her point of view there was a man in the locker room.

 

[The Lunatic]

I guess it depends if they're locker rooms which entrance is allowed based on sex or gender?

 

[inmunitas]

I guess it depends if they're locker rooms which entrance is allowed based on sex or gender?

Locker rooms are partitioned by sex, not gender or sexuality. Transitioning gender doesn't change your sex, and vise versa.

 

[Thaluikhain]

No it isn't, it's a guy identifying as a woman, that is not the same as a biological woman and you know that, you can't have transgenderism be special and non existant at the same time.

A trans woman is a woman. That's why the second part of "trans woman" is woman.

Take it literally: from her point of VIEW, she sees what is biologically a male, how is she immedietly supposed to know that this man identifies as a woman? And even if she did, that doesn't change what is physically in front of her.

Suppose she was a cis woman instead, but looked like a man to her. Does that change anything?

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

Their gym their rules, simple as that... kinda sucks for the woman that got kicked out though... she did seem rather reasonable about it

 

[FirstNameLastName]

No it isn't, it's a guy identifying as a woman, that is not the same as a biological woman and you know that, you can't have transgenderism be special and non existant at the same time.

A trans woman is a woman. That's why the second part of "trans woman" is woman.

To be fair, that's rather shaky reasoning. You could also say, a biological man is a man. That's why the second part of "biological man" is man.

 

[inmunitas]

No it isn't, it's a guy identifying as a woman, that is not the same as a biological woman and you know that, you can't have transgenderism be special and non existant at the same time.

A trans woman is a woman. That's why the second part of "trans woman" is woman.

Gender and sex are not the same thing.

Take it literally: from her point of VIEW, she sees what is biologically a male, how is she immedietly supposed to know that this man identifies as a woman? And even if she did, that doesn't change what is physically in front of her.

Suppose she was a cis woman instead, but looked like a man to her. Does that change anything?

Her sex would still be male, so she'd go into the male changing room.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Take it literally: from her point of VIEW, she sees what is biologically a male, how is she immedietly supposed to know that this man identifies as a woman? And even if she did, that doesn't change what is physically in front of her.

Suppose she was a cis woman instead, but looked like a man to her. Does that change anything?

Her sex would still be male, so she'd go into the male changing room.

A cis woman that looks like a man to Cormier uses the male changing room?

Huh.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Well... did she look like a man?

Because all I have is this lady's word, and maybe this person did just look like a man in a wig at first glance, and it freaked her out as I imagine it would freak out many women changing if what they initially thought was a dude just came strolling in. Even if she was biologically a woman, you can't blame someone for mistaking them for a man if they look very man-ish. From what this article says, it's not like she went complaining because a transgendered person came walking in, but because what she thought was a man.

So this just seems like an honest if very unfortunate mistake.

 

[inmunitas]

*snip*

Suppose she was a cis woman instead, but looked like a man to her. Does that change anything?

Her sex would still be male, so she'd go into the male changing room.

A cis woman that looks like a man to Cormier uses the male changing room?

Huh.

Gender and sexuality doesn't come into it, changing room partitions are purely based on sex.

 

[Arshaq13]

Wait! Is this the same Planet Fitness that is the butt of all jokes across every single gym-goer who knows about it?

To stay on point with the question though, don't think she should have banned but she should have been warned though. The trans-woman really did nothing wrong.

 

[Zombie_Fish]

Cis male here. My general opinion is towards gender neutral facilities instead of the above choices. But until the day comes when those are the norm, trans* people should be allowed to use the changing room that matches their gender identity.

Gender and sexuality doesn't come into it, changing room partitions are purely based on sex.

Unless you are required to provide DNA test results every time you want to use a changing room and other changing rooms are provided for people who have neither XX nor XY chromosomes, changing rooms partitions are not purely based on sex.

 

[The Lunatic]

Unless you are required to provide DNA test results every time you want to use a changing room

Or be accurate 99.96% of the time.

Exceptions don't make the rules.

Also, intersex bathrooms or gradually becoming a thing, actually.