Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[VanQ]

Let's think of it this way.

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

Do you not think that if we allowed transgendered people (with male bodies) free reign to use female locker rooms that there would not be some terrible people out there that wouldn't take advantage of that?

Trans women being forced into men's areas and being assaulted is something we see all the time. Trans women in women's areas is not something we see causing problems (beyond giving politicians et al something to rant about)

You answered neither of my questions but okay.

 

[NateA42]

I've always felt that it has to go by biological sex. If post-op they are female then they use the Woman's room, pre-op they use the Men's room. I've always supported LGBQT rights and so has my family but we all feel this way. The two transgendered people I know (both Female to Male) agree with me on this so I stand firm in my conviction. At the same time I would not wish to say this to the face of a transgendered person who feel the opposite.

 

[tippy2k2]

Spoiler: Quote tree from IMissedThatOne; spoiling for the sake of size

Not that I don't believe you (and you seem far more informed on this debate than I am so that's why I'm asking you) but do you have stats or anything like that to back the "transwoman more likely to be raped"-thing up (if you already gave them earlier, I apologize. This thread got a lot longer than I anticipated and I've been gone for the last day or so)?

I'm sure that it does happen but is there anything "official" that shows that a transwoman (who, for everyone else in the area, looks like a man unless she goes around telling strangers that she's female) is that much more likely to be raped than any other person?

I was reading this thread silently. I did not post yet because I felt like I couldn't add anything.
I always wonder how transwomen navigate through their daily lives with that stress of not knowing if their upsetting someone if they need to pee. It's seems that they're in a bad position no matter what place they use.

Anyway: considering statistics of sexual asssault the first thing that I found was this:
http://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

Qoute:
"Statistics documenting transgender people's experience of sexual violence indicate shockingly high levels of sexual abuse and assault. One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.1 Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse.2 This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization. "

A second source seems to confirm this:
http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944

Quote:
"Most studies reveal that approximately 50% of transgender people experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetime."

but I didn't check the sources well. They might be biased.

Then there is also the report of the williams institue which specifically targets the siuation of bathrooms and harrasment:
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/study-transgender-people-experience-discrimination-trying-to-use-bathrooms/

but it's a small sample so conclusions should be made with caution:

Here are some interesing details:

"Survey Respondents? Experiences with Gendered Public Restrooms
The survey assessed people?s experiences accessing or using gender-segregated public restrooms by asking specifically about denial of access to facilities, verbal harassment, and physical assault. Overall, 65 respondents (70 percent) reported experiencing one or more of these problems. Eighteen percent of respondents have been denied access to a gender-segregated public restroom, while 68 percent have experienced some sort of verbal harassment and 9 percent have experienced some form of physical assault when accessing or using gender-segregated public restrooms."

"
Health
Fifty-four percent of respondents reported having some sort of physical problem from trying to avoid using public bathrooms, all of whom reported that they ?held it? to avoid public restrooms. Health problems that respondents reported due to avoiding using public bathrooms include: dehydration (n=9), urinary tract infections (n=7), kidney infection (n=2), and other kidney-related problems (n=2). Six percent of respondents have seen a doctor for health problems caused by avoiding public restrooms."

Participation in Public Life
Problems or expectation of problems with gender-segregated public facilities can impact a person?s participation in public life, causing him or her to refrain from going to public places or attending public events. Fifty-eight percent of respondents reported that they have avoided going out in public due to a lack of safe restroom facilities. Thirty percent of respondents reported not attending a specific event for a variety of reasons related to public restrooms. The most common reasons for avoiding an event were that the length of the event was too long to avoid using the restroom (n=20) and a lack a familiarity with the venue where the event was being held (n=18). Respondents also reported avoiding events because the event was not important enough to risk problems with restrooms (n=17), restrooms at the event seemed unsafe (n=15), and there would be no friends or people the respondent knew at the event who could help navigate the restroom (n=14)."


It seems transgender people rather avoid using sex-segregated places all together.

Thank you for the info.

That last half especially (the "bathroom experiences") seems to be most helpful for the thread since it sounds like the experience that this transgendered gal is having is pretty common. The biggest question that I end up having though (and something that is being touched on lightly in this thread) is...what can we actually do?

As the study said, 70 percent of participants said that they were verbally assaulted, which unfortunately depending on their looks makes sense. It's what happened to the complainer here; someone who looks like a man walks into a woman's room and they get yelled at for it. A gal in the bathroom screams and her boyfriend storms into the bathroom and sees (what looks like) a man standing there with his girl so he grabs her (the transgender gal that is, not his girlfriend) and forcibly shoves her out of the bathroom because they see a guy standing there in the girls restroom.

That's kind of the shitty thing here; there's no real easy answer to fix this (unless making all bathrooms unisex is easy but there are people who are going to have valid concerns about that and will fight it). Like you (even though I'm the topic creator), I've been hanging back in the shadows reading each post since I really have no clue what can be done because I know I don't know (hence the topic asking).

There are valid points to both sides of the argument (hell, the poll above is relatively split on this issue here). Maybe it's just time that needs to pass for some of the older thinking to go away (like how gay marriage is starting to really gain steam as older generations go down and the younger generations that "grew up with gay" and don't see the big deal rise up)...

Either way, thanks again for the info.

 

[HankyPanky]

Standing on the side of the "Obviously transphobic hateful monsters" because I view transgenders as, in all honestly, reality deniers.

What, even in the face of both neurobiological and psychological evidence of its existence? You're the one believing contrary to the scientific consensus.

May I have a link/reference to the studies?

 

[Sarge034]

Again, what does "in the physical form" mean? Someone who looks like a certain gender to you?

No, as I already said, if you have a penis you are a man in the physical form. If you have a vagina you are a woman in the physical form. AND, before you try to cloud the issue (again), I said the physical form doesn't determine the mental form.

Just not trans people, it seems.

Wait wait wait. So just because they don't get what they want they don't feel safe? Because they don't let people with penises in the vagina changing room and vice versa? Like I said, I'm all for transgender rights, but there ARE things that need to be addressed because this is relatively a new issue. To just expect to be able to walk in and have everyone bend over backwards to accommodate *you* because *you* are "special" is naïve.

Nobody has the right to "feel safe" by deciding they get to exclude others. Do they get to "feel safe" by excluding ethnicities or religions they don't like?

I'd say depends. Men aren't allowed in shelters for abused women for example. Much like I can understand why a male body shouldn't be in a female body changing room.

 

[Silvanus]

May I have a link/reference to the studies?

Sure thing.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

"RESULTS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals."

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

"A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones"

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2005-05392-000/ (Behind a login, but the abstract is there).

"For example, pioneering research on structural differences in the brain validates transgender people's feeling of being a member of the other sex."

 

[Kathinka]

May I have a link/reference to the studies?

Sure thing.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

Just weighting in as someone who has lately worked with shit ton of studies because I wrote my doctorate on that stuff: It is worth nothing that this is a change that occurs after living as the identified-as gender for a time. MtF transwomen are still born with a "male" brain and FtM with a "female" brain. It's a change similar to how the part of the brain responsible for sound will develop in a violine player, or the one tasked with orientation and path finding in a taxi driver.
Of course that doesn't make the condition any less real or serious. Just something worth noting when the old theory from the 70s and 80s "born with the wrong brain" gets thrown around.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Just weighting in as someone who has lately worked with shit ton of studies because I wrote my doctorate on that stuff: It is worth nothing that this is a change that occurs after living as the identified-as gender for a time.

I would like a link for that.

 

[Diaconu Cristian]

Not sure why this is complicated but:
penises in the man's room
vagina's in the ladies room
simple as that.

What you identify as is another issue completely. And no you don't get to choose, you get to grow a thicker skin if things in life don't go as you want them (oh poor you, you where born with a d**k but like to play with barbies... well guess what some kids won't have anything to eat in the next few days so nobody owes you anything)
Now if you change your P into a V than you get to go to the ladies room.

Also, the amount of muscles you posses should not overrule the P for man's room and V for ladies room.
If you are one strong chick than you get to go to the ladies room even if someone can mistake you for a guy.

The reason we have different lockers for different genders is because women wouldn't feel safe to change with men around (men would probably not give a rats ass about it).

 

[Kathinka]

Just weighting in as someone who has lately worked with shit ton of studies because I wrote my doctorate on that stuff: It is worth nothing that this is a change that occurs after living as the identified-as gender for a time.

I would like a link for that.

I don't have web links (doing this stuff with a library like a good little med student), but I'll provide the studies and I'm sure if you are super interested you can dig most of them up online.
The first significant to our issue here are twin studies (the first conducted by Buhrich, Bailey an Martin, in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.)
If indeed a transperson were born with a non-matching brain, genes, hormonal exposure or something like that would be responsible (a stance known as 'biological determinism'). If that were so, it would mean that monotonically twins would always both be trans, since they share exactly the same genes and were exposed to the same hormones before birth and so on. Since that isn't the case, as found in the twin studies conducted, the born-with-female-brain-in-male-body theory is probably lacking. That doesn't mean that genetics or hormonal exposure don't play a role, but it obviously isn't the deciding factor.
Another interesting study (Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF, can probably be found online) found that the change didn't occur until in adulthood. The reasons for that are being speculated, for example neuronal activity leading to the change and that again to the discrepancy of how the brain feels and how the body looks.
A close look at the studies that looked into a biological link between the condition and genetics, hormone exposure and so on shows that it certainly plays a role, but apparently rather minor. (Check out Kruijver, Zhou).

A more likely answer is a complex interaction of genetic, hormonal and psychological factors.
The problem is that the entire debate is highly politicized and a bit of a taboo. Transgenders were, like homosexuals, for a long time victims of close-minded views and had to fight long and hard to be recognized. The idea that the condition is determined and one is born with it gives people a sense of legitimacy. Which is nonsense, the situation IS legitimate, whatever the cause. Doing bad science and hampering research into the field helps no one, lest of all the trans community itself. Still, it happens a lot because people feel like they are being attacked and get defensive when it is suggested that the condition might be more complex than a simple "born that way". Even when the people suggesting it are the ones that want to help.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I don't have web links (doing this stuff with a library like a good little med student), but I'll provide the studies and I'm sure if you are super interested you can dig most of them up online.
The first significant to our issue here are twin studies (the first conducted by Buhrich, Bailey an Martin, in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.)
If indeed a transperson were born with a non-matching brain, genes, hormonal exposure or something like that would be responsible (a stance known as 'biological determinism'). If that were so, it would mean that monotonically twins would always both be trans, since they share exactly the same genes and were exposed to the same hormones before birth and so on. Since that isn't the case, as found in the twin studies conducted, the born-with-female-brain-in-male-body theory is probably lacking. That doesn't mean that genetics or hormonal exposure don't play a role, but it obviously isn't the deciding factor.
Another interesting study (Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF, can probably be found online) found that the change didn't occur until in adulthood. The reasons for that are being speculated, for example neuronal activity leading to the change and that again to the discrepancy of how the brain feels and how the body looks.
A close look at the studies that looked into a biological link between the condition and genetics, hormone exposure and so on shows that it certainly plays a role, but apparently rather minor. (Check out Kruijver, Zhou).

A more likely answer is a complex interaction of genetic, hormonal and psychological factors.
The problem is that the entire debate is highly politicized and a bit of a taboo. Transgenders were, like homosexuals, for a long time victims of close-minded views and had to fight long and hard to be recognized. The idea that the condition is determined and one is born with it gives people a sense of legitimacy. Which is nonsense, the situation IS legitimate, whatever the cause. Doing bad science and hampering research into the field helps no one, lest of all the trans community itself. Still, it happens a lot because people feel like they are being attacked and get defensive when it is suggested that the condition might be more complex than a simple "born that way". Even when the people suggesting it are the ones that want to help.

Thank you, sorry about the response time, I had to read them all.

Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF seem to postulate it's prenatal (and maybe perinatal) hormonal exposure seems the most likely candidate (and this is not contested in the other articles) for determining size of BTSc later on in life. Although that doesn't explain why there is no significant chance of monozygotic twins being both transgendered, limited exposure in the womb seems likely, seeing as MZ twins differ in IQ (most likely due to reduced oxygen to the second baby), finger prints, and retinas.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

The reason we have different lockers for different genders is because women wouldn't feel safe to change with men around (men would probably not give a rats ass about it).

Who cares? After all, some children won't have anything to eat over the next few days, so nobody owes these women anything. And of course, the fallacy of relative privation is a perfectly valid argumentative technique, right?

 

[Thaluikhain]

But you do understand my point right? The ladies room exists so they can feel safe.

I'd argue that it's about being safe, not feeling safe. Not quite the same thing.

This is just a temporary means to try and create a barrier between victims and perpetrators, and put them in another spot that we perceive as being safer.

Based on the assumption that trans women are perpetrators, and cis people the victims.

We cannot really use women's facilities as a refuge from violence in the mens facilities

Is that not what they are there for?

Just not trans people, it seems.

Wait wait wait. So just because they don't get what they want they don't feel safe?

No, because forcing trans women into men's areas is known not to be safe.

Like I said, I'm all for transgender rights, but there ARE things that need to be addressed because this is relatively a new issue. To just expect to be able to walk in and have everyone bend over backwards to accommodate *you* because *you* are "special" is naïve.

Bend over backwards, by treating trans women the way you'd treat other women? Treating women like women isn't particularly hard.

 

[Kathinka]

An interesting reversal of the situation: What about the (admittedly much rarer) trans men? Would you force an 80 pound five feet trans-man looking like a girl into a mans restroom?

Tricky situation all around.

 

[Demagogue]

The woman was exactly where she was supposed to be. The fact that this closed minded other woman keeps referring to her as a man shows the lack of respect for the transwoman. No, the gym shouldn't have to 'warn' all their members that they have some transgendered members, it is none of the other members business. I'm not even sure it is the gym's business to know.

No where in this story does it mention the transwoman doing or saying anything to make the other woman uncomfortable, other than just being there. I'm sorry, but if being in the mere presence of someone different than you upsets you, then maybe YOU are the problem, not them.

As for the idea of men lying to get a peek at naughty bits... get over yourself. These are not immature children, they are adults, and while you may have some adults that go to a gym just to watch the women run on treadmills or whatever, they are 1) far from the majority and 2) the reason no judgement policies exists.

 

[HankyPanky]

May I have a link/reference to the studies?

Sure thing.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

"RESULTS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals."

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

"A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones"

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2005-05392-000/ (Behind a login, but the abstract is there).

"For example, pioneering research on structural differences in the brain validates transgender people's feeling of being a member of the other sex."

Thank you.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Just as one can be a man or a woman, they can be a two spirit, that IS HUMAN, and it is insulting to all of those who take pride in being two spirit to claim they are not.

Where did I do this? I renounce what you think I am. That is what I renounce. Because I disagree on your analysis of my condition does not mean I'm belittling an entire culture.

If your brain scans show you to be between to male and female spectrum, that is what would be defined as two spirit by definition.

How about if you let people identify, and self authenticate themselves rather than pretending you have any right to?

The brain scans of males, female, and transgenders are different, and the transgender brain is neither male or female, and they should be proud of this, it is natural and healthy. In Native American cultures, these people are called two spirits, that is not an insult, or degrading it is what they are called instead of transgender. Many consider transgender to be more of a degrading term than two spirits and prefer to use that solely to define themselves.

And yet ... given I am transgender, you find my personal input invalid in regards to my self identification? Come now ... you'll need stronger. Does it at all surprise you that trans people consider themselves man or woman based on their own self authentication? If you are going to call these people liars, then what right do you have to summon my respect for superstition as key to understanding self?

It is great that those things helped you with what you decided was wrong with your life, the issue though is what you experienced in your life that made you feel you needed to both externally and internally. Societies expectations of what it means to be male or female are part of the problem, not all societies make people feel as though they have to be one or the other in the first place. You cannot rewind and erase everything you have been exposed to since birth and change how your own perceptions of what it means to be male and female to auto correct all of the negative data you have received, but some who were instead celebrated for being two spirit never developed a negative self image, instead they loved themselves just he way they are.

I experienced philosophy, actually. It give me the means to articulate my despair ... and it gave me the strength to realise that my self expression is not merely valid, but also a stepping stone to achieving a society that can be free from artificial ideas of the essentialism of mankind. I didn't choose to physically change because of society's ideas of man or woman, but rather on my belief that there is no universal man or woman for anyone to make any valid criticism of a transgender identity.

It is great these things helped you, and I hope they continue to help you, Some however, do not see that there is anything wrong on themselves that needs to be fixed, nor should they be pressured to.

Of course not. I am, if nothing else, a libertarian.

If we change societies view of " what is normal" we will also change how people view themselves. When it becomes normal and considered a great thing to be two spirited, less people will have the desire to change themselves because they will already feel normal.

The problem is not feeling you are perfect to begin with, what in your environment made you feel that way, and how we go about making everyone feel as they are perfect the way they are so they all have a positive self image from the start.

And yet just as it is not for people to pretend there is normal, nor is it for you to determine who is 'two spirit'. Certainly not without the persona so identified. Why not listen to them first, to see how they feel?

Medical consensus disproves what? My choice fields of study were Immunology and Pediatric Medicine, and I am fully aware that the studies have shown and that the transgender brain scans have shown that their brains are neither male or female, but in between. I think you misunderstand, I am not saying that you should not have surgeries if that is what you feel you need. However, I am stating that we need to address the issues in society that are pressuring people into thinking they are broken and need fixed, when they are not.

Medical consensus shows that treatment, hrt and surgical, if so desired reduces cases of suicide and increases general social participation. Though I dislike this idea that people 'need to be fixed' ....

Whilst certainly, many transgender people articulate this as such, I see it more in terms of self authentication. Something I will myself to be. It's my choice, regardless ... I see it less as fixing a problem, but rather being more true to self. Being unfaithful to one's idea of self is not necessarily a person who is 'broken'.

Indeed, I hold in confidence a gay friend who came out to me, but is afraid of what his family will say. Pretending, in the mean time, if only to give him a chance to properly come out on his own time. I do not see him as 'broken', but I do see him as reaching for his self authentication in all aspects of his life.

He is striving for it. It is a part of his character. Not broken, merely human. A crime we're all guilty of.

 

[Demagogue]

Looking at this fella I can see why the woman would be more than a little concerned. It looks like someone slapped a dress on Skinner from the X-Files

Did you SERIOUSLY just randomly picture hunt from google to find a picture to 'prove' your point. First off... wow, completely inappropriate...

Secondly, so just looking 'manly' is reason enough to suspect someone of being a violent person or a pervert?


And that folks is one of the biggest problems... people are guilty by snap judgements of appearance.

That's totally fine though isn't it... /sarcasm.

edit: brain 2 finger communication was disrupted.