Poll: Are you a feminist?

[Evilpigeon]

"I shouldn't have to specify that I'm not a racist, because there shouldn't be racism, so instead I identify as a racist."

What the fuck?

Binary thinking at its best.

IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ONE OF US YOU MUST BE ONE OF THEM!

Seriously?

I'm fairly confident you missed my point.

I'm not saying that anyone here is sexist because they refuse to identify as a feminist. I'm saying the logic being used to avoid identifying as a feminist is flawed. They think they shouldn't HAVE to fight for equality, so they're not going to. That doesn't make a lot of sense when you really think it through.

If that was your point, you're right I did miss it, sorry. I guess I was primed by reading moopig's odd arguments

On your actual intended point: Frankly fighting for it works anymore in the West, other parts of the world certainly still have opposition that needs genuine fighting but that's separate. I'm not so naive as to pretend that everyone is treated equally by everyone else but, to be honest you'd probably go a long way to solving current issues with sexism or racism by waiting a bit so that the older generations who were raised on this stuff to die off.

Most of what I see done under the banner of feminism is trivial (feel free to prove me wrong) and I don't think I'm alone in having a seriously bad impression of the movement as a whole.

I said earlier in the thread, in it's general sense feminism is a movement with a good cause but it can't/won't detach itself from a century's worth of bad press and one of the worst names you could possibly give to a movement attempting to promote equality.

 

[Steinar Valsson]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

I guess the salory part can get quite pressing for a single mother. Making ends meet is harder for her then a male.

 

[Epona]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

I guess the salory part can get quite pressing for a single mother. Making ends meet is harder for her then a male.

Except that it's a myth. Most of the gap comes down to women making choices to work fewer hours, lower paying jobs and being less flexible to come in at any time.

Plenty of evidence out there, just Google Wage Gap Myth. I am not interested in trying to convince you, just letting you know that the wage gap is disputed.

 

[Ryotknife]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

Right now it's a defensive fight.

See, there aren't political pundits out there with audiences in the millions saying MEN should have their voting rights revoked.

There aren't bestselling authors proclaiming for men to "get back in the kitchen" or similar to cure the nation's ills.

Yes, feminists have won most of what they were seeking. But you gotta continue fighting if you want to keep it...

It is pretty much impossible for women to lose any of the rights that they have won. It would take an absolute catastrophe like the near extinction of mankind. It is far more likely for men to lose rights than women.


Hell, the media shows men as the inferior sex and it is considered politically correct. All you have to do is look at TV, movies, books, or commercials. I was literally floored when in a Colgate commercial the guy had the "cleaner" mouth than the woman test subject as that is very rarely done in the past decade. 90+% of the time where one person is slow, stupid, or dirty and the other is fast, intelligent, or clean the guy is the one on the short end of the stick.

And you know what? I will be the first one to admit....it IS funny as hell when they do that. But it is used so often and is so pervasive in our society that men are lead to believe that there is something wrong with them since they are born a man. There was an article recently on CNN stating that men (not some men, all men) must have some sort of mental illness that must be addressed due to the colorado shootings.

Your only opposition is from the "Old Guard" who are literally a dying breed with practically no one to fill their shoes when they pass on. Granted, they have a lot of money.


The younger/moderate men have not only given up fighting about women's rights (which is a good thing) but they have also given up defending/standing up for themselves in any situation involving a woman (which is a BAD thing). Why? Because it is not worth it thanks to the media. It is so much easier to go the "durr hurr hurr im just a guy!" route like the media portrays us than trying to stand up for yourself and become demonized by the media/society.



And no, i dont believe that any of this is womens fault actually. That probably sounds a bit odd after my rant. Well, it is not specifically their fault, it is also equally men's fault. Really you can say its American's fault. As a people we tend to either change too slowly, or over-react. Very rarely is our group response somewhere in the middle. Right now we are over reacting. Yes, there are a few areas in which women's rights still need to focus on (mostly economic), but honestly they can stop beating the war drums so loudly. Course even if they did there is still the problem of men having their collective spine removed by the media/society.


There seems to be MORE fervor and anger in gender related issues NOW than when the feminist movement first started, which doesnt make much sense as they had a hell of a lot more things to be angry about back then.

And no, i dont believe that men have life worse than women. I also dont believe that women have it worse than men. I believe that life is sh#$ no matter what group you belong to.

 

[Epona]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

Right now it's a defensive fight.

See, there aren't political pundits out there with audiences in the millions saying MEN should have their voting rights revoked.

There aren't bestselling authors proclaiming for men to "get back in the kitchen" or similar to cure the nation's ills.

Yes, feminists have won most of what they were seeking. But you gotta continue fighting if you want to keep it...

Nor are there any political pundits fighting for equality for men in a number if areas like child custody, domestic violence, selective service, etc...

Women aren't going to lose voting rights, so people talking about it is hardly a concern and no one is going to force women "back into the kitchen". How can you even compare those things to the fact that equality for men isn't even discussed?

 

[Epona]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

Right now it's a defensive fight.

See, there aren't political pundits out there with audiences in the millions saying MEN should have their voting rights revoked.

There aren't bestselling authors proclaiming for men to "get back in the kitchen" or similar to cure the nation's ills.

Yes, feminists have won most of what they were seeking. But you gotta continue fighting if you want to keep it...

Nor are there any political pundits fighting for equality for men in a number if areas like child custody, domestic violence, selective service, etc...

Women aren't going to lose voting rights, so people talking about it is hardly a concern and no one is going to force women "back into the kitchen". How can you even compare those things to the fact that equality for men isn't even discussed?

Pretty convienient standard there; completely write off misogynistic banter from the kooks, but the misandrist kooks warrant immediate concern. Not workin that way buddy, even if I do agree with you on principle that child custody, domestic violence, and selective service standards are crap.

The difference is, the LAW is imposing these restrictions on men. It's judges that rule in favor of mothers getting custody 90+% of the time, it's the law that refuses to treat men as equals in domestic violence cases and in DV funding, it's the law that makes men register for the draft (if it were to ever return) but not women and so on...

In your examples, it's just people talking shit, the law isn't taking away voting rights nor is the law forcing women into the kitchen. Can you not see that?

And yet...."Be a man" is still a compliment. "You think like a man". Still a compliment. "Man up". Compliment.

Those aren't compliments.
"Be a man" = You aren't being manly enough
"You think like a man" = thinking with your penis
"Man up" = same as the first one.

 

[Epona]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

Right now it's a defensive fight.

See, there aren't political pundits out there with audiences in the millions saying MEN should have their voting rights revoked.

There aren't bestselling authors proclaiming for men to "get back in the kitchen" or similar to cure the nation's ills.

Yes, feminists have won most of what they were seeking. But you gotta continue fighting if you want to keep it...

Nor are there any political pundits fighting for equality for men in a number if areas like child custody, domestic violence, selective service, etc...

Women aren't going to lose voting rights, so people talking about it is hardly a concern and no one is going to force women "back into the kitchen". How can you even compare those things to the fact that equality for men isn't even discussed?

Pretty convienient standard there; completely write off misogynistic banter from the kooks, but the misandrist kooks warrant immediate concern. Not workin that way buddy, even if I do agree with you on principle that child custody, domestic violence, and selective service standards are crap.

The difference is, the LAW is imposing these restrictions on men. It's judges that rule in favor of mothers getting custody 90+% of the time, it's the law that refuses to treat men as equals in domestic violence cases and in DV funding, it's the law that makes men register for the draft (if it were to ever return) but not women and so on...

In your examples, it's just people talking shit, the law isn't taking away voting rights nor is the law forcing women into the kitchen. Can you not see that?

As I said elsewhere, you mistakingly think that people just "talking shit" doesn't get results.

Prop 8. The Tea Party. THe list goes on and on of major sea changes that started just as "talking shit".

Talking shit can get results if it gets big enough but it's not at that point right now. The things I mentioned with men ARE AT THAT POINT RIGHT NOW. Surely you can see the difference?

 

[Sindaine]

No because I like sex too much. Specifically, sex with men. That's misogynistic, you know!

 

[Epona]

Oh really? What rights do males have that females do not?

Women are not drafted to the military, women get generally the upper hand in hild custody rights, home abuce of men is taken less seriously, circumcision is ok with boys and statistically women get leaner prison sentences then males for the same offence (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/).

Women have more visable and pressing issues, but men still have some.

(On top of what I have, read the responses you have)

After what you listed about men getting the short end of the stick, what could be more pressing for women?

Right now it's a defensive fight.

See, there aren't political pundits out there with audiences in the millions saying MEN should have their voting rights revoked.

There aren't bestselling authors proclaiming for men to "get back in the kitchen" or similar to cure the nation's ills.

Yes, feminists have won most of what they were seeking. But you gotta continue fighting if you want to keep it...

Nor are there any political pundits fighting for equality for men in a number if areas like child custody, domestic violence, selective service, etc...

Women aren't going to lose voting rights, so people talking about it is hardly a concern and no one is going to force women "back into the kitchen". How can you even compare those things to the fact that equality for men isn't even discussed?

Pretty convienient standard there; completely write off misogynistic banter from the kooks, but the misandrist kooks warrant immediate concern. Not workin that way buddy, even if I do agree with you on principle that child custody, domestic violence, and selective service standards are crap.

The difference is, the LAW is imposing these restrictions on men. It's judges that rule in favor of mothers getting custody 90+% of the time, it's the law that refuses to treat men as equals in domestic violence cases and in DV funding, it's the law that makes men register for the draft (if it were to ever return) but not women and so on...

In your examples, it's just people talking shit, the law isn't taking away voting rights nor is the law forcing women into the kitchen. Can you not see that?

As I said elsewhere, you mistakingly think that people just "talking shit" doesn't get results.

Prop 8. The Tea Party. THe list goes on and on of major sea changes that started just as "talking shit".

Talking shit can get results if it gets big enough but it's not at that point right now. The things I mentioned with men ARE AT THAT POINT RIGHT NOW. Surely you can see the difference?

So it's impossible to oppose both schools of thought? I didn't know that, because I've gotten into shouting matches with hardcore misandrists as surely as I have people in the Vox Popoli blog and Dick Masterson's cult.

I never said you couldn't oppose both. I oppose both! I don't want women to lose voting rights or the right to work outside the home and I also want men to be treated equally as well. It's just that there are alot fewer people that care about mens rights and that's why the state can discriminate against men without much protest.

 

[Sindaine]

No because I like sex too much. Specifically, sex with men. That's misogynistic, you know!

Implying that being a feminist means you're no longer allowed to have and enjoy sex with men.

Good god, how many acres of cornfield do you need for a strawman that big?

That's just what I've been told by the campus feminists. They literally called me a 'gender traitor' and a 'rape enabler'.

Nooope. Not touching that with a pole ten miles long, thanks.

 

[Ryotknife]

That's what lgbt's thought in California. Then Prop 8 happened.

not a gender issue

Short of said near extinction event, how?

actually in an extinction level event men would go back to the pre-feminist movement status extreme (which is a bad thing for humanity). So the only way men are ever going to be empowered in gender related issues is....for most of us to die.

Well that is freakin depressing.

And yet...."Be a man" is still a compliment. "You think like a man". Still a compliment. "Man up". Compliment.

Most of those are INSULTS. Specifically to shame another person. "you think like a man" is still not a compliment, its either taking pride in having compromised judgement or welcoming a woman as part of their group (even then it depends HEAVILY on context). It is like having pride in only having one leg, not quite a compliment.

if i walk up to a random woman and say "you think like a man" one of four things will happen:

1. she will be confused
2. she will walk slowly away
3. slap me
4. kick me in the balls

hmm....doesnt sound like the normal reaction to a compliment to me. okay, what about for men? if some random person came up to him and said that, he would either be confused or just walk away.

Oh, and masculine traits in the business and political world? THAT"S what's praised. Just a few campaign commercials at all levels proves that.



And I can find you articles that explain how a shooting of women at a trade school was a revolutionary action done to liberate men. You want to play stupid article vs. stupid article with me? Really? We can go there if you want, buddy...

Alright, where is that article located? Is it on a major network? Because i highly doubt even Fox news, as sickeningly biased as they are, would touch such an article. I suppose it is possible, afterall my opinion of that network is so low that it has passed through the earth's core and is now coming up on the opposite side of the world.

Except for 4chan and a good deal of the Xbox live populance. I can even show you some blog communities that are never short of members to agree. Just for an example, go google the "Vox Popoli" blog. Tell me that there's no young/middle aged who are insistent on revoking women's rights after that.

4chan and xbox live is also full of racists, anti-seminites, bigots, and people who hate babies. You can not point to it when those locations universally hate any and all things that are considered holy or good.

There are probably as many young/middle aged men who are insistent on revoking women's rights as there are neo nazis. You are seeing enemies in the middle of a graveyard. All major opponents to women's rights are either dead, have one foot in the grave, or are ghosts who would never publicly say anything in real life because they dont have the guts.

Is gender a hot topic here? yes, because it is the internet. Try to bring up a thoughtful gender debate in real life and men will either flee in terror or say whatever the one side wants them to hear regardless if they feel that way or not. In fact, you are more likely to see feminazi men in those debates than feminazi women because we feel that in gender debates we have to admit that we are universally horrible people who deserve to die a slow and painful death (and it is only through the good and merciful grace of women that our lives are spared and indeed given any sort of meaning) because THAT is the politically correct stance.