Poll: Auto industry bailout: Should congress do it?

[Slycne]

I personally think that we shouldn't do it, but I also think chances are this is going to pass regardless. Just like the Republicans and 'The Church', the Democrats have been in bed with the unions far to long to let them fail. Even with public support against it, reelections won't happen for sometime and your average vote will have long forgotten about it. So expect a show with these C.E.O., but the Democrats are not going to bail on some of their biggest finical contributors.

 

[AceDiamond]

True, but it's a proof of concept. You know (or probably do) that electric motors are powerful. Most Americans think that electric motors are wimpy things that won't propel a car that well. If you can show them an electric car that laughs at most Italian sports cars (which cost more), you get consumers.

That isn't my point. What this illustrates is that

A. Electric Motors are powerful but
B. Only people who aren't heavily affected by gas price fluctuations can afford them, at least for the next 3-4 years.

Now I know I'm being very unfair regarding this because I know it's their first model (and hey, I definetely have to give them credit for making an alternative-fuel car that looks aesthetically pleasing), but at the same time it also could make the idea in the minds of the common public that alternative fuels are an elitist concept which undercuts the message.

Again I know I'm being a bit unfair but then again people by and large are astronomically stupid about these things.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

True, but it's a proof of concept. You know (or probably do) that electric motors are powerful. Most Americans think that electric motors are wimpy things that won't propel a car that well. If you can show them an electric car that laughs at most Italian sports cars (which cost more), you get consumers.

That isn't my point. What this illustrates is that

A. Electric Motors are powerful but
B. Only people who aren't heavily affected by gas price fluctuations can afford them, at least for the next 3-4 years.

Now I know I'm being very unfair regarding this because I know it's their first model (and hey, I definetely have to give them credit for making an alternative-fuel car that looks aesthetically pleasing), but at the same time it also could make the idea in the minds of the common public that alternative fuels are an elitist concept which undercuts the message.

Again I know I'm being a bit unfair but then again people by and large are astronomically stupid about these things.

I see your point, and that's why I hope one of the car companies goes under (Dodge/Chrysler). If they go under, more people will look at the Tesla, if they get big enough, their cars will become cheaper and the masses will buy them. For the time being they have to wave their car in skeptics faces saying "haha your 60's GTO got it's ass handed to it by a GOLF CART!"

 

[Najos]

The bailout is almost the complete opposite of capitalism. I disagree with it for that reason alone, but there's several other reasons I don't like it. All of them have already been said, though.

@AceDiamond: Right now, in the US, alternative fuels are an elitist concept. There's really no way around that.

To clarify: I've never seen a bio diesel pump, car outlet, or any kind of ethanol pump at any gas station anywhere near my hometown. In fact, I've only ever seen ONE and it was across the country in California. So yeah, it is an elitist concept.

 

[KaZZaP]

ummmm of course not? Mabey its because I don't pay any attention to economicial stuff but bailing out any company doesnt seem like a good idea. You know the CEO's have multi million dollar sallaries and then ask for tax payers money to bail them out. Auto companies really havent changed that much since we started making cars. We're still making the same old cars just with a new shell and a DVD player in the head rest. If we keep shoveling money to the bad companies no good new companies will ever emerge. Its like if the government kept giving money to casset companies becasue CD's are taking over.

North American cars suck, they have lower gas efficency and more emissions, if they cant change their companies to survive they should go under thats evolution. I hope they do go under because then all the people that loose their jobs can start making cars that run on water or air or corn.

Didn't this same thing happen with air lines a while ago, they we're loosing money and we're gonna have to fire people so they got a large bailout but then they fired their employee's anyways and basically pocketed the cash. If a buisness cant survive it deserves to go under, my lemon aid stand as a kid didn't do well wheres my bailout.

 

[AceDiamond]

The bailout is almost the complete opposite of capitalism. I disagree with it for that reason alone, but there's several other reasons I don't like it. All of them have already been said, though.

@AceDiamond: Right now, in the US, alternative fuels are an elitist concept. There's really no way around that.

Yeah I never realized that wanting to save the environment for the benefit of all was elitist. How silly of me. No wait I'm thinking of something else.

 

[JMeganSnow]

No, the government should not be bailing out any business under any circumstance, especially not with money forcibly taken from taxpayers.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The bailout is almost the complete opposite of capitalism. I disagree with it for that reason alone, but there's several other reasons I don't like it. All of them have already been said, though.

@AceDiamond: Right now, in the US, alternative fuels are an elitist concept. There's really no way around that.

Yeah I never realized that wanting to save the environment for the benefit of all was elitist. How silly of me. No wait I'm thinking of something else.

Yeah, but you have to look at the average person who doesn't believe man is warming the Earth. They don't believe that and the people with hybrids who do wave their cars at their faces (not every hybrid owner, but enough of them to gain a reputation). Average Americans do see alternative energy vehicles as elitist because they know someone who is an elitist. The especially annoying ones are the ones who write "emissions tickets" on SUV and truck owners. I've actually seen one of these people. They really are annoying as hell. I wasn't even being targeted by the guy and I found him annoying.

 

[Najos]

The bailout is almost the complete opposite of capitalism. I disagree with it for that reason alone, but there's several other reasons I don't like it. All of them have already been said, though.

@AceDiamond: Right now, in the US, alternative fuels are an elitist concept. There's really no way around that.

Yeah I never realized that wanting to save the environment for the benefit of all was elitist. How silly of me. No wait I'm thinking of something else.

Okay, I can already tell you're just going to strawman me to death. I'm willing to try one more time.

Until the majority of Americans (or at least 40%) have easy access to the means by which to have an alternative fuel vehicle it is, AT THAT MOMENT, an elitist concept. Saving the environment has nothing to do with it. It could be cars that shoot lasers, but if you can't charge the batteries then it is a fucking elitist concept.

 

[thiosk]

Hybrid and electric cars are a feel-good technology. The big three are not dying because of a lack of hybrid and electric cars. They are dying because of legacy labor costs and a freeze on the credit market leaves them unable to raise enough funds to pay the bills.

The lithium ion battery in my cellphone died after 2.5 years of sustained usage. And I didn't even talk on it every day. Now you want to fill a car with enough lithium ion batteries to run a car all over town? Oh, but they do have a failure rate after just a few years, sorry, you'll need to re-purchase the most expensive component of your vehicle every two years.

Besides, this saving the environment with electric cars is garbage. Unless you get your power from hydroelectric (tapped out), nuclear (maybe we'll build some new plants maybe), or pathetic wind\solar, (doesn't provide the terawatts we need to run this country) then you are just shifting the energy dependence from oil to coal. And coal is arguably dirtier than oil. (co2 is not a pollutant, the sulfur released by coal is) This is fine with me, its just simply too expensive to mandate, and besides, the greens won't let us build coal power plants at the capacity we need to continue running this country in any sort of automotive capacity.

I hope they do go under because then all the people that loose their jobs can start making cars that run on water or air or corn.

Oh, ripe. So we're currently using 20% of the output of our corn production in the US to make ethanol for cars. This was a feel-good concept at the time, but now just about everyone has come around to realize what a horrible idea this is. 20% of our corn, we mix it in to make less than 10% of our gas. And food prices went up. Big suprise there, this is the year the food agencies can't acquire enough food to give to third world countries. Great plan!

We could make them run on water, yes. I assume you mean hydrogen, since water doesnt burn. But you still need electricity to make the hydrogen. We make industrial quantities of hydrogen now-- out of natural gas, and that makes as much CO2 as burning the natural gas in the first place. Or maybe we could lyse the water with solar... ok, but you need about half the worlds supply of palladium catalyst to make enough hydrogen for the state of rhode island's cars. Need to grossly improve the photocatalytic splitting of water for this to work, and we're not there yet. Putting ford out of business will only slow that down.

Air? Pneumatic cars?
Now you're just being silly.

 

[videonerd250]

People say give the workers the money, and that would be fine and perfect for them, but what about future generations? Keeping the businesses going insures that there are more jobs available in the US (until they move overseas). We can't expect the government to keep handing out more and more checks because we want to prove a point. Give them the bailout and watch them so that it doesn't happen again.

 

[Doomguru]

Does bailing out an industry or business make them stronger? I would argue that it does not--all it does is create a dependence mentality. Most if not all of the businesses with their hands out have either been bailed out before by the government and are either seeking an "easy way out" or are just wanting a piece of the "free-money" pie.

The U.S. automakers are in trouble because they're having trouble selling cars. Duh. Yes, they make a lot of gas-guzzlers. Yes, we just experienced the highest fuel prices I've ever seen in my lifetime recently and that affects people's behaviors. Gee, do you think that affects people's buying habits?? (massive sarcasm quotes here) Now that fuel is less expensive, people are still not buying them. Does that mean that gas prices aren't the only factor? Again, duh. It's not just the economy, it's that people don't like what they're offering. Why bail out businesses that can't figure out how to make money selling products that people actually want?

Then there's the albatross business. Not to offend anyone but the proverbial albatross around their collective necks are the unions, primarily the UAW. No other automakers building cars in the U.S. (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, etc.) mess with them. Gee, I wonder why.

Sounds to me like a vicious cycle and an unwarranted credit risk. If they were a viable credit risk, it would be debatable as to if they would be deserving of assistance. As things stand now, I think it's too late for them. Chapter 11 may be harsh but it may also be the best thing for them too. I sincerely hope they can pull their heads out of their asses without sticking their hands in our collective pockets because I *know* we can't trust our "leaders" in D.C. to not throw money at them unless we threaten their jobs.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Hybrid and electric cars are a feel-good technology. The big three are not dying because of a lack of hybrid and electric cars. They are dying because of legacy labor costs and a freeze on the credit market leaves them unable to raise enough funds to pay the bills.

The lithium ion battery in my cellphone died after 2.5 years of sustained usage. And I didn't even talk on it every day. Now you want to fill a car with enough lithium ion batteries to run a car all over town? Oh, but they do have a failure rate after just a few years, sorry, you'll need to re-purchase the most expensive component of your vehicle every two years.

Besides, this saving the environment with electric cars is garbage. Unless you get your power from hydroelectric (tapped out), nuclear (maybe we'll build some new plants maybe), or pathetic wind\solar, (doesn't provide the terawatts we need to run this country) then you are just shifting the energy dependence from oil to coal. And coal is arguably dirtier than oil. (co2 is not a pollutant, the sulfur released by coal is) This is fine with me, its just simply too expensive to mandate, and besides, the greens won't let us build coal power plants at the capacity we need to continue running this country in any sort of automotive capacity.

The only statement I'm willing to dispute right now is wind/solar weakness. Wind and solar are very good producers of electricity. They're probably the cheapest in the long run too since you only have to pay for maintenance. If they were adapted more, we could easily run our country off of wind and solar.

 

[thiosk]

Give them the bailout and watch them so that it doesn't happen again.

This is the second time we're being asked to bailout chrysler.

The only statement I'm willing to dispute right now is wind/solar weakness. Wind and solar are very good producers of electricity. They're probably the cheapest in the long run too since you only have to pay for maintenance. If they were adapted more, we could easily run our country off of wind and solar.

The problem with wind and solar now is the problem of scale.

Terrawatts. Your house runs on kilowatts. Power plants make megawatts. States use gigawatts. The world uses terrawatts. Trillions of watts of energy (not just electricity).

Wind is, and will always remain, a boutique energy source. Ideal in certain places, but simply can not make terrawatts. Solar is the only one that has a chance, and we need much, much more time to really figure that out.

I would reccomend looking at academic publications by Dr. N. Lewis at CalTech, i believe, who is doing some exciting work in solar technology now. And even with advances like that, we are way too far behind the gun to attempt a paradigm shift in world energy supply.

 

[Jimmyjames]

They've had their chance to do something different. Instead they've shoveled out the same gas guzzlers and relied on the same business model for 50 years. Let someone new give it a go.

 

[videonerd250]

Give them the bailout and watch them so that it doesn't happen again.

This is the second time we're being asked to bailout chrysler.

In all fairness though there is the three strike rule.

 

[Slycne]

The U.S. automakers are in trouble because they're having trouble selling cars. Duh. Yes, they make a lot of gas-guzzlers.

Even their fuel efficient cars don't sell. On average their sedans sell for thousand of dollars less then an equivalent Honda or Toyota. The difference is that Honda and Toyota choose to cut costs by using standardized parts. These auto makers try to cut costs by inserting inferior parts. The consumers prefer to buy the more dependable vehicle that is also in turn cheaper to repair.

Some of the 3 don't have that much trouble selling either. GM for instance makes more money then all the other auto makers, the problem is that they spend more then everyone else as well.

All in all, they are simply poorly managed companies that are paying far to much for labor. Any loan that we extend to them is likely to not be paid back, meaning the tax-payers will have to eat that cost.

 

[PatientGrasshopper]

Why the fuck not? We're already waste deep in recession, we can't put an entire city out of work (Detroit or wherever the fuck it is), and should we not bail them out we'd probably hit recessions status that makes the Depression look like a party. Not to mention when those guys go out of work, they'll have to practically leave state to find jobs.
And as Crimson said, many of them have been doing good work, unlike Dodge. Dodge purposely broke it's toy and is now demanding a new one.

OK here's the thing yes if the company goes under people will lose their job in the short run but will eventually find a new job. If we give them bailouts it gives the companies an excudse to be lazy and not take responsiblity for their failures. So they will either fold or be bought out and then they can rebuild under beter management.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Give them the bailout and watch them so that it doesn't happen again.

This is the second time we're being asked to bailout chrysler.

The only statement I'm willing to dispute right now is wind/solar weakness. Wind and solar are very good producers of electricity. They're probably the cheapest in the long run too since you only have to pay for maintenance. If they were adapted more, we could easily run our country off of wind and solar.

The problem with wind and solar now is the problem of scale.

Terrawatts. Your house runs on kilowatts. Power plants make megawatts. States use gigawatts. The world uses terrawatts. Trillions of watts of energy (not just electricity).

Wind is, and will always remain, a boutique energy source. Ideal in certain places, but simply can not make terrawatts. Solar is the only one that has a chance, and we need much, much more time to really figure that out.

I would reccomend looking at academic publications by Dr. N. Lewis at CalTech, i believe, who is doing some exciting work in solar technology now. And even with advances like that, we are way too far behind the gun to attempt a paradigm shift in world energy supply.

We could easily make that scale. Especially for wind. There's almost constant wind over the oceans, it wouldn't be hard to set up windmills near the coast and run coastal towns and cities. Of course it would make more sense to use [a href="http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Wave_buoys"] wave power[/a] And there are very few places where solar can't get energy. We just need to take a bigger look at it.

 

[Milford Cubicle]

The collapse of the three American car companies would not be fatal for the US. The collapse of all the American car companies would not be fatal for the US!

The collapse of the main American banks would bring down the rest of the country with them. As unpalatable as it is to fund the bankers, the banks cannot be allowed to go under.

Companies who make substandard automobiles (in comparison with European and Japanese cars) have no God-given right to stay afloat. Recessions are no places for rose-tinted spectacles.