Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!

[Riot3000]

Why does everytime benevolent sexism comes up it this hold doors open crap that misses the forest of the trees.

I would go into because Dizzy summed it up well and I don't feel like a wall of text.

The in my opinion yes benevolent sexism is real and is more prevasive than malevolent because benevolent can conceal itself way better because of its machinations. I think it has invaded even suppose feminist places and discussion which has caused me to avoid them or just grow irksome with them for a time.

The whole to be or not be a gentlemen aspect of this does not really do this conversation the justice it so rarely gets.

 

[Ieyke]

Yea, they can go and fuck off.

Regardless of if I do it just for women or not, if I hold open a door for a girl and she takes offense, then that just highlights that I want nothing to do with her.

Because if I do something nice for a woman and can't be bothered to do the same for a guy, it doesn't really matter. I'm still being nice.
The world should NOT prefer that I be apathetic to all instead of benevolent towards some.

Do I do it because I think they're weak?
No.

Do I think they're weak?
I think (know) they're less physically powerful than men on average, and very probably weaker than me specifically (most men are too), but no, I don't assume they're actually weak.

Why do I do it?
I don't always. I do it because it's convenient and it's someone I want to be nice to, and that's pretty much true of anyone, but more so women.
Because....I like women. I tend to get along with them better than guys just in general. Most of my closest friends are women.
For all I know, it could be because of the whole "women are only bitches to other women" thing, which means I always get their pleasant side, whereas a guy who's an asshole is usually just an asshole to everyone.... Or not. I'm told that's a thing. I dunno. Don't really care either.

Point is, if I hold open a damn door for you, don't be a jackass and get offended.


Swap out "holding doors" for whatever the fuck example you want.

 

[mecegirl]

Did you tell him "Knock it off" in those exact words? Because that's probably why he flipped if that's the case. Am I saying "OH IT'S YOUR FAULT!!"? No. But he was doing something he found to be socially acceptable and appropriate with no ill will towards you, and if you responded with a hostile "Knock it off!" then I can understand him being frustrated. It sucks when you're being nice and someone flips at you.

Oh the other hand if you told him that you've got it and he persisted and he became morose trying to take the bags from you, then yeah. I can get you being upset by that.

Nope, didn't use those exact words, back then I was trying to let him down gently.

But that's exactly my point. This guy had known me for many years, but as soon as he decided he wanted to date me, he started treating me like a delicate flower when anyone who's known me more than five minutes could tell I would absolutely hate that. Because that's what he thought women should like/be like, regardless of what the individual he was trying to impress (I guess) actually wanted.

So, yeah, that whole thing was dumb.

We should all be polite to strangers, and making a show of yourself trying to be a `gentleman` is often more to do with you than the other person. (General `you`).

Sorta reminds me of my first boyfriend in highschool. He learned the lesson quickly, mostly because we were friends before he started liking me so he kinda knew better. I guess he felt the need to start treating me more like a "girl" than on of the guys since he was crushing on me. But he knew the sort of person I was so I don't even know why he bothered outside of tradition.

The day that he decided to ask me out he, and a mutual male friend, popped up at my locker that morning. I guess the mutual friend was there for emotional support or whatever. Anyway, old boyfriend asked if he could carry my books. I said "No I got it." without even thinking. The mutual friend leaned over and whispered to me that I should stop being so independent. Like what the fuck? We'd known each other for a year, he knew were my locker was, he or none of my other male friends had ever offered to carry them before. I must have given them the meanest glare after that because they shut up real quick.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

Scratch everything I just wrote, I don't wanna get involved in this shit.

Now that I've cooled off, I'll try and understand things and articulate my thoughts.

1. It's a study with a tiny sample size. Is this peer reviewed? Probably not.

2. I can't actually read the study as it's behind a pay-wall. I sometimes fall for click-bait, but I'll never fall for click-bait behind a pay-wall.

3. From what I've read, some of the questions were pretty vague yes or no questions.

4. The "Ambivalent Sexism Index" sounds like bullshit. (It's on the Washington Post article that the National Review links)

5. Why do people think tabloids matter. I've never been able to comprehend this.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Some people here sound like they go to the rudest schools or universities in the world.

It always seems to be universities.

Do people really look at you funny because you open the door for men and women even though you're a woman?

Do people really stop to give a look or pass a remark when you, as a dude, hold open a door for a woman and they think you might only be doing it because she's a woman?

Maybe I'm lucky that I got through five years of third level education without encountering a "door incident." Do people in your universities not have better things to do with their time than freak out about doors?

Christ, open the door for people just like they would for you, it's not a big deal.

 

[L. Declis]

EDIT: You know what? I don't want to get dragged into the usual slop that these people do.

Being a good person isn't something we should demonise. Maybe start with the bloody mountain of sexism like... Oh, I dunno, women not being allowed to go to school in some parts of the world before we start on this?

It's like getting angry that someone has made you a cup of your favourite drink, but it's in the WRONG CUP! Meanwhile, in the house next door, the kitchen is on fire and killing everyone inside.

 

[Amaror]

If you just doing these things because the person your doing them to is female, then yes that's sexist.
But many of these things are incorporated into "Being a decent person".
I don't know how it's in America, but here in Germany you hold the door open for other people.
If a person, regardless of gender, is near behind me i just hold the door open when i go through, instead of slamming it into their face. It's pretty basic behaviour.
If i am on a date and invited the girl to dinner, then i am paying for that dinner. Not because she is a woman, but because i invited her. If she invited me i would expect her to pay for dinner, unless previously discussed.

 

[Carnagath]

This is not new, nor is it any less dumb the more you hear it. Holding a door open is called "manners", you either have them or you don't (the recipient's gender doesn't matter). Other things are called "obligations", because men and women are ACTUALLY NOT the same thing (shock and awe), so as a man there are some things that you should do as a decent human being, like walk a girl home after going out if it's late at night so she will feel more safe, and to help her out if some drunk guy lunges at her or something, because you are most likely physically in a better position to handle that kind of thing. How very sexist...

 

[Phasmal]

Just understand that many men are just... raised to be helpful to women and they're not trying to insult women by doing these gestures as for the majority they are taught to do these things by women.

I do understand that.
However, I also wish some dudes would realise that a woman not wanting their help is not a personal slight.

You can see it here in the thread, guys getting offended that someone might not appreciate them doing something they've decided is nice. You did it yourself in the original post.

If someone takes it that personally when another person doesn't want their help, it makes me question their motives as `just being nice`. If you're just being nice, it's fine when the other person doesn't want your help.

Yes, many men are raised to be nice to women. Many women are also raised to do things by themselves.

A good tip for me would be- if the person looks like they are struggling or asks for help then it is a good time to be offering help.

 

[Lightspeaker]

If someone takes it that personally when another person doesn't want their help, it makes me question their motives as `just being nice`. If you're just being nice, it's fine when the other person doesn't want your help.

You really can't see why someone would be offended by being slighted for making what they think is a polite gesture? Because people just don't work that way in reality.

Try some non-gendered examples. You buy a family member a gift and they turn it down, not for any particular reason but because they think that you're after something. You wouldn't be offended by the implied insult?

You offer to fetch someone a drink when you go to get one for yourself and they reject the offer, complaining that they're perfectly capable of doing so on their own. That wouldn't offend you either?

I appreciate that's not quite the point you're making, but that's because you're coming at this from only one angle. Even if the person's motivations are in good faith, they're still ultimately making a small gesture in an attempt to be polite. Throwing politeness back in someone's face is unlikely to be taken well regardless of who you are or they are or why they've done it; because its very easy to take it as an insult.

Here in England people hold doors for each other, regardless of whether they're male or female. At least in my experience its just the done thing. However if I were to hold a door open for someone and they snapped at me for it for whatever reason then my instinctive reaction would be "well screw you then".

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

I hold the door open for anyone who is close behind me when I am going thought a door. Gender is not even a factor, It's am just being polite.
to go even further I am gay, so I don't even trying to get a women's attention. If any women happens to be assuming anything other then I am being polite, then said assumption is inaccurate.

 

[Luminous_Umbra]

Though, this reminds me of a different study that I've read on "benevolent sexism." Men that treat women as equals (and don't display benevolent sexism) tend to be viewed as sexist themselves by the average woman (emphasis on average). The study: https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeung_Amy.pdf?sequence=1

I've talked about this with friends, and we pretty much agree that it's because the average guy treats the average woman "better" than he treats other guys (again, emphasis on average). Guys are openly dicks to each other, and generally don't watch their language around each other, and this can come as a large surprise when a woman is truly treated as "one of the guys."

At least, that's what seems to be the case.

I've had the same experience with one exception honestly. Heck, from what I've found from personal experience and speaking with others, it's a bit of a trust thing that develops among male friends (Predominately in my experience). That is, they trust each other to not say or do dickish things to each other with ill intent. That it's all in good fun, just ribbing or teasing.

 

[Phasmal]

Here in England people hold doors for each other, regardless of whether they're male or female. At least in my experience its just the done thing. However if I were to hold a door open for someone and they snapped at me for it for whatever reason then my instinctive reaction would be "well screw you then".

I'm also English, and although opening doors is generally a non-issue, when it comes to things like trying to take a heavy load off of someone, I don't think anyone should be offended by a polite but firm `No thank you`.
After all, generally British people value politeness, but also minding your own business.
(Just in case that wasn't clear, that's a joke).

 

[remnant_phoenix]

They list the "women and children get evacuated off the sinking ship first" thing, which is called the Berkenhead drill, which is something which never really was an official thing in maritime protocol, at least not universally and not for a very long time. And it certainly does not exist in the present. The troubling thing behind that is that it puts women and CHILDREN in the same category. It's based on the assumption that women and children are on the same level of capability and self-sufficiency, both physically and psychologically.

I was always taught that "women and children first" was a matter of gentleman's honor. It's not belittling woman by placing them on the same level as children; it's the man placing his desire for self-preservation BELOW his desire to take care of his family, to sacrifice one's own needs to serve the needs of others that one considers more, not less, worthy than one's self. If I was in that situation, that's exactly what I would do and that's why I would do it. Then again, this only works for family men I suppose, and I hold on to codes of honor, even if our culture at large has no regard for honor.

And this brings me back to the heart of this issue: why is intention not given consideration? If someone offers to carry something heavy for someone else, why can't it just be because that first someone wanted to be helpful? Why is there an underlying assumption of "if you offer to ease someone's burden, you are implicitly saying that they are weak and NEED your help"? Do we live in such a cynical time that people can't accept altruism? That they assume that there is an ulterior motive?

...

When I think about how the average person on the internet would answer my questions, I get sad and I remember why I'm spending less and less time on the internet nowadays...

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

I just do those "gentlemanly" things for everyone.

And I used to live in a small town where if you didn't hold the door for someone, it could actually become gossip. Because it was considered human decency.

I miss that.

tl;dr: You can circumvent this by being polite equally to everyone, regardless of gender.

 

[Deathmageddon]

Feminism: so you can defer all responsibility for your safety onto strangers, blame bad decisions you made while blackout drunk (getting blackout drunk being one of them) on an imaginary "rape culture" which contradicts common sense, and still get mad at men who treat you like a person.

Meanwhile, some countries have a genital mutilation rate as high as 90%, marry 8-year-old girls to middle-aged men, and execute victims of actual rape. But nobody gives a shit about those atrocities, because their culture is just as valid as ours, right?

 

[Michel Henzel]

I have always done these types of gentlemanly things and after reading this I will continue to do so, if being a gentleman makes me a sexist then well, I am proud to be a gentlemanly sexist pig.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Some people here sound like they go to the rudest schools or universities in the world.

It always seems to be universities.

Do people really look at you funny because you open the door for men and women even though you're a woman?

Do people really stop to give a look or pass a remark when you, as a dude, hold open a door for a woman and they think you might only be doing it because she's a woman?

Maybe I'm lucky that I got through five years of third level education without encountering a "door incident." Do people in your universities not have better things to do with their time than freak out about doors?

Christ, open the door for people just like they would for you, it's not a big deal.

Living in Canada, I see people holding the door for everybody. Women holding it open for men, men holding it open for other men, I don't think I really ever see anyone being discriminatory for it. Same deal with the university I go to, and our university is probably only 50% born in Canada. Is this mainly a states thing?

Feminism: so you can defer all responsibility for your safety onto strangers, blame bad decisions you made while blackout drunk (getting blackout drunk being one of them) on an imaginary "rape culture" which contradicts common sense, and still get mad at men who treat you like a person.

Meanwhile, some countries have a genital mutilation rate as high as 90%, marry 8-year-old girls to middle-aged men, and execute victims of actual rape. But nobody gives a shit about those atrocities, because their culture is just as valid as ours, right?

You know, I've seen people getting hung up on the "So I can't have sex with anybody who's drunk?" aspect of this, but I've never seen someone on this site who doesn't have a problem with somebody having sex with a person who's so drunk they can't resist.

Congratulations, you trailblazer

 

[Sarge034]

Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

You answered your own question. If you do ANYTHING based on sex alone then it's sexist. Do you hold the door open for men the same you do for women? Do you offer men your jacket, or your umbrella? "Chivalry" needs to die already, it's just sexism in disguise. That's actually what makes me angry about it. People don't realize it's sexism because it's what's expected of a "gentleman" and/or because it benefits them. If I'm expected to treat women better or in a special manner because thay are women then why can't I treat them worse because they're women too? (Not saying I would or even want to, but just drawing parallels.)

 

[Lupine]

EDIT: You know what? I don't want to get dragged into the usual slop that these people do.

Being a good person isn't something we should demonise. Maybe start with the bloody mountain of sexism like... Oh, I dunno, women not being allowed to go to school in some parts of the world before we start on this?

It's like getting angry that someone has made you a cup of your favourite drink, but it's in the WRONG CUP! Meanwhile, in the house next door, the kitchen is on fire and killing everyone inside.

While I agree with you in spirit, man I'm gonna say being a good person means not giving a crap. Now, that's not to say that people can be rude to you and you shouldn't take offense, that is also not to say that sharp remarks have to roll off you like water down a duck's back, but what I am saying is that if you're a good person and you're doing things with honest intentions because it was the right thing to do or the socially responsible move, then you should not give a crap about how people respond to it. This is sort of like beyond the line of duty heroics to me, if you're doing the right thing with the expectation of getting something in return then you are kinda doing it for the wrong reasons and maybe you need to reevaluate how you feel about the things you're doing in the first place.

Jumping straight to the point, how people respond is pretty much irrelevant. That's not to say that you can't value their opinions and weight it against your own or that you shouldn't always be introspective about your own thoughts and motives, but what I'm saying is that if everyone everywhere were to demonize good people, actually good people shouldn't really care seeing as they are good people to begin with and it isn't stroking their egos or self-aggrandizement they are seeking but doing the right thing in benefit of others and society as a whole.