Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!

[Colour Scientist]

Some people here sound like they go to the rudest schools or universities in the world.

It always seems to be universities.

Do people really look at you funny because you open the door for men and women even though you're a woman?

Do people really stop to give a look or pass a remark when you, as a dude, hold open a door for a woman and they think you might only be doing it because she's a woman?

Maybe I'm lucky that I got through five years of third level education without encountering a "door incident." Do people in your universities not have better things to do with their time than freak out about doors?

Christ, open the door for people just like they would for you, it's not a big deal.

 

[L. Declis]

EDIT: You know what? I don't want to get dragged into the usual slop that these people do.

Being a good person isn't something we should demonise. Maybe start with the bloody mountain of sexism like... Oh, I dunno, women not being allowed to go to school in some parts of the world before we start on this?

It's like getting angry that someone has made you a cup of your favourite drink, but it's in the WRONG CUP! Meanwhile, in the house next door, the kitchen is on fire and killing everyone inside.

 

[Amaror]

If you just doing these things because the person your doing them to is female, then yes that's sexist.
But many of these things are incorporated into "Being a decent person".
I don't know how it's in America, but here in Germany you hold the door open for other people.
If a person, regardless of gender, is near behind me i just hold the door open when i go through, instead of slamming it into their face. It's pretty basic behaviour.
If i am on a date and invited the girl to dinner, then i am paying for that dinner. Not because she is a woman, but because i invited her. If she invited me i would expect her to pay for dinner, unless previously discussed.

 

[Carnagath]

This is not new, nor is it any less dumb the more you hear it. Holding a door open is called "manners", you either have them or you don't (the recipient's gender doesn't matter). Other things are called "obligations", because men and women are ACTUALLY NOT the same thing (shock and awe), so as a man there are some things that you should do as a decent human being, like walk a girl home after going out if it's late at night so she will feel more safe, and to help her out if some drunk guy lunges at her or something, because you are most likely physically in a better position to handle that kind of thing. How very sexist...

 

[Phasmal]

Just understand that many men are just... raised to be helpful to women and they're not trying to insult women by doing these gestures as for the majority they are taught to do these things by women.

I do understand that.
However, I also wish some dudes would realise that a woman not wanting their help is not a personal slight.

You can see it here in the thread, guys getting offended that someone might not appreciate them doing something they've decided is nice. You did it yourself in the original post.

If someone takes it that personally when another person doesn't want their help, it makes me question their motives as `just being nice`. If you're just being nice, it's fine when the other person doesn't want your help.

Yes, many men are raised to be nice to women. Many women are also raised to do things by themselves.

A good tip for me would be- if the person looks like they are struggling or asks for help then it is a good time to be offering help.

 

[Lightspeaker]

If someone takes it that personally when another person doesn't want their help, it makes me question their motives as `just being nice`. If you're just being nice, it's fine when the other person doesn't want your help.

You really can't see why someone would be offended by being slighted for making what they think is a polite gesture? Because people just don't work that way in reality.

Try some non-gendered examples. You buy a family member a gift and they turn it down, not for any particular reason but because they think that you're after something. You wouldn't be offended by the implied insult?

You offer to fetch someone a drink when you go to get one for yourself and they reject the offer, complaining that they're perfectly capable of doing so on their own. That wouldn't offend you either?

I appreciate that's not quite the point you're making, but that's because you're coming at this from only one angle. Even if the person's motivations are in good faith, they're still ultimately making a small gesture in an attempt to be polite. Throwing politeness back in someone's face is unlikely to be taken well regardless of who you are or they are or why they've done it; because its very easy to take it as an insult.

Here in England people hold doors for each other, regardless of whether they're male or female. At least in my experience its just the done thing. However if I were to hold a door open for someone and they snapped at me for it for whatever reason then my instinctive reaction would be "well screw you then".

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

I hold the door open for anyone who is close behind me when I am going thought a door. Gender is not even a factor, It's am just being polite.
to go even further I am gay, so I don't even trying to get a women's attention. If any women happens to be assuming anything other then I am being polite, then said assumption is inaccurate.

 

[Luminous_Umbra]

Though, this reminds me of a different study that I've read on "benevolent sexism." Men that treat women as equals (and don't display benevolent sexism) tend to be viewed as sexist themselves by the average woman (emphasis on average). The study: https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeung_Amy.pdf?sequence=1

I've talked about this with friends, and we pretty much agree that it's because the average guy treats the average woman "better" than he treats other guys (again, emphasis on average). Guys are openly dicks to each other, and generally don't watch their language around each other, and this can come as a large surprise when a woman is truly treated as "one of the guys."

At least, that's what seems to be the case.

I've had the same experience with one exception honestly. Heck, from what I've found from personal experience and speaking with others, it's a bit of a trust thing that develops among male friends (Predominately in my experience). That is, they trust each other to not say or do dickish things to each other with ill intent. That it's all in good fun, just ribbing or teasing.

 

[Phasmal]

Here in England people hold doors for each other, regardless of whether they're male or female. At least in my experience its just the done thing. However if I were to hold a door open for someone and they snapped at me for it for whatever reason then my instinctive reaction would be "well screw you then".

I'm also English, and although opening doors is generally a non-issue, when it comes to things like trying to take a heavy load off of someone, I don't think anyone should be offended by a polite but firm `No thank you`.
After all, generally British people value politeness, but also minding your own business.
(Just in case that wasn't clear, that's a joke).

 

[remnant_phoenix]

They list the "women and children get evacuated off the sinking ship first" thing, which is called the Berkenhead drill, which is something which never really was an official thing in maritime protocol, at least not universally and not for a very long time. And it certainly does not exist in the present. The troubling thing behind that is that it puts women and CHILDREN in the same category. It's based on the assumption that women and children are on the same level of capability and self-sufficiency, both physically and psychologically.

I was always taught that "women and children first" was a matter of gentleman's honor. It's not belittling woman by placing them on the same level as children; it's the man placing his desire for self-preservation BELOW his desire to take care of his family, to sacrifice one's own needs to serve the needs of others that one considers more, not less, worthy than one's self. If I was in that situation, that's exactly what I would do and that's why I would do it. Then again, this only works for family men I suppose, and I hold on to codes of honor, even if our culture at large has no regard for honor.

And this brings me back to the heart of this issue: why is intention not given consideration? If someone offers to carry something heavy for someone else, why can't it just be because that first someone wanted to be helpful? Why is there an underlying assumption of "if you offer to ease someone's burden, you are implicitly saying that they are weak and NEED your help"? Do we live in such a cynical time that people can't accept altruism? That they assume that there is an ulterior motive?

...

When I think about how the average person on the internet would answer my questions, I get sad and I remember why I'm spending less and less time on the internet nowadays...

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

I just do those "gentlemanly" things for everyone.

And I used to live in a small town where if you didn't hold the door for someone, it could actually become gossip. Because it was considered human decency.

I miss that.

tl;dr: You can circumvent this by being polite equally to everyone, regardless of gender.

 

[Deathmageddon]

Feminism: so you can defer all responsibility for your safety onto strangers, blame bad decisions you made while blackout drunk (getting blackout drunk being one of them) on an imaginary "rape culture" which contradicts common sense, and still get mad at men who treat you like a person.

Meanwhile, some countries have a genital mutilation rate as high as 90%, marry 8-year-old girls to middle-aged men, and execute victims of actual rape. But nobody gives a shit about those atrocities, because their culture is just as valid as ours, right?

 

[Michel Henzel]

I have always done these types of gentlemanly things and after reading this I will continue to do so, if being a gentleman makes me a sexist then well, I am proud to be a gentlemanly sexist pig.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Some people here sound like they go to the rudest schools or universities in the world.

It always seems to be universities.

Do people really look at you funny because you open the door for men and women even though you're a woman?

Do people really stop to give a look or pass a remark when you, as a dude, hold open a door for a woman and they think you might only be doing it because she's a woman?

Maybe I'm lucky that I got through five years of third level education without encountering a "door incident." Do people in your universities not have better things to do with their time than freak out about doors?

Christ, open the door for people just like they would for you, it's not a big deal.

Living in Canada, I see people holding the door for everybody. Women holding it open for men, men holding it open for other men, I don't think I really ever see anyone being discriminatory for it. Same deal with the university I go to, and our university is probably only 50% born in Canada. Is this mainly a states thing?

Feminism: so you can defer all responsibility for your safety onto strangers, blame bad decisions you made while blackout drunk (getting blackout drunk being one of them) on an imaginary "rape culture" which contradicts common sense, and still get mad at men who treat you like a person.

Meanwhile, some countries have a genital mutilation rate as high as 90%, marry 8-year-old girls to middle-aged men, and execute victims of actual rape. But nobody gives a shit about those atrocities, because their culture is just as valid as ours, right?

You know, I've seen people getting hung up on the "So I can't have sex with anybody who's drunk?" aspect of this, but I've never seen someone on this site who doesn't have a problem with somebody having sex with a person who's so drunk they can't resist.

Congratulations, you trailblazer

 

[Sarge034]

Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

You answered your own question. If you do ANYTHING based on sex alone then it's sexist. Do you hold the door open for men the same you do for women? Do you offer men your jacket, or your umbrella? "Chivalry" needs to die already, it's just sexism in disguise. That's actually what makes me angry about it. People don't realize it's sexism because it's what's expected of a "gentleman" and/or because it benefits them. If I'm expected to treat women better or in a special manner because thay are women then why can't I treat them worse because they're women too? (Not saying I would or even want to, but just drawing parallels.)

 

[Lupine]

EDIT: You know what? I don't want to get dragged into the usual slop that these people do.

Being a good person isn't something we should demonise. Maybe start with the bloody mountain of sexism like... Oh, I dunno, women not being allowed to go to school in some parts of the world before we start on this?

It's like getting angry that someone has made you a cup of your favourite drink, but it's in the WRONG CUP! Meanwhile, in the house next door, the kitchen is on fire and killing everyone inside.

While I agree with you in spirit, man I'm gonna say being a good person means not giving a crap. Now, that's not to say that people can be rude to you and you shouldn't take offense, that is also not to say that sharp remarks have to roll off you like water down a duck's back, but what I am saying is that if you're a good person and you're doing things with honest intentions because it was the right thing to do or the socially responsible move, then you should not give a crap about how people respond to it. This is sort of like beyond the line of duty heroics to me, if you're doing the right thing with the expectation of getting something in return then you are kinda doing it for the wrong reasons and maybe you need to reevaluate how you feel about the things you're doing in the first place.

Jumping straight to the point, how people respond is pretty much irrelevant. That's not to say that you can't value their opinions and weight it against your own or that you shouldn't always be introspective about your own thoughts and motives, but what I'm saying is that if everyone everywhere were to demonize good people, actually good people shouldn't really care seeing as they are good people to begin with and it isn't stroking their egos or self-aggrandizement they are seeking but doing the right thing in benefit of others and society as a whole.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

You can be a gentleman and not be sexist. People shouldn?t be making so many assumptions about the behaviour of a complete stranger, unless you know for a fact that they?re only doing it to pay your gender lip service.

Anyway, personally, I?m just polite. (And British.) I never consciously treat a woman differently than I would a man in terms of my manners. Unless you can prove that it?s actually some kind of nefarious latent sign of all that is wrong with the patriarchy in the world, then it?s nothing more than pseudo-psychological fluff.

One thing I will admit is that, if there?s a girl I fancy but I want us to still be friendly, then I might watch what I say around her a bit more purely because I don?t want to give her the impression that I?m rude or vulgar. I guess I still have that adolescent mentality of wanting certain girls to like me, and not caring what guys think if I fart next to them because we?re already friends and have built a level of comfortableness. Many people tend to form friends within their own gender, so of course they would value being friends (or even something more) with someone who can approach life?s various subjects with a somewhat different perspective.

 

[IOwnTheSpire]

Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

You answered your own question. If you do ANYTHING based on sex alone then it's sexist. Do you hold the door open for men the same you do for women? Do you offer men your jacket, or your umbrella? "Chivalry" needs to die already, it's just sexism in disguise. That's actually what makes me angry about it. People don't realize it's sexism because it's what's expected of a "gentleman" and/or because it benefits them. If I'm expected to treat women better or in a special manner because thay are women then why can't I treat them worse because they're women too? (Not saying I would or even want to, but just drawing parallels.)

How is doing ANYTHING based on sex alone sexist? Isn't sexism DISCRIMINATION based on sex? There are times where people have to be treated differently due to their sex, and I've never heard it called sexism.

 

[rorychief]

I don't know or care too much for the chivalry rebuked thing. Seems like a non problem. Can't imagine someone getting pissed because I'd implied they can't open a door, or bless themselves after sneezing, or pick something up after they'd dropped it.

I do find though that I definitely think sexist thoughts of the patronizing benign kind all the time. Like when I think a woman is overreacting or being foolish I'll dismiss it as 'don't know what its like to be her so maybe in her subjective world view that makes perfect sense.' If I hear a girl say something that to me sounds petty or vain or shallow regarding physical appearence, its easy to file it off as, 'don't judge because if you had the experiences she's had you'd probably be just as preoccupied with looks.'

I guess this is bad because it means I treat women as having less responsibility for their own behavior, like children. If I see a girl drunkenly freaking out and cursing nonsensically I say 'Probably has a valid reason to do with a guy, guys are jerks,' but if I see a guy do the same I would judge him for having no self control or restraint. In this way I would hold guys to a higher standard more similiar to the one I hold for myself, while treating inconsiderate asshole women as the product of myriad societal pressures I can't begin to fathom so in the end who can blame them, poor lass, with all the shit girls have to deal with its a miracle she can make herself remotely pleasant to be around at all.
I've never really been made to reflect on whether this is truly damaging or not because the nature of this particular sexist attitude is all about avoiding conflict, not creating it. And so far its only helped me in my life to assume other people have reasonable reasons for their unreasonable behavior. I have zero drive to try and improve or educate others on how they should ideally conduct themselves.

In basic terms the problem attitude I have is :They're different to me so maybe in their terms screaming and hitting must mean hello, I must forgive and accommodate this miscommunication in a way I wouldn't with a fellow human adult.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

Eh, you can't do anything nowdays without elderly gentlemen giving you bemused comments. So unfair.

I didn't see if the guy actually was as old as he sounded like. Regardless it was a pretty positive remark to hear, as opposed to the stereotypical "whippersnapper" bullshit I'm so used to hearing others getting exposed to.

When I am an elderly gentleman I intend to exercise my right to bemused every second of the day.