Poll: Biased Gender Politics and Violence

[Naeras]

Contrary popular belief, women are actually worse than men when it comes to abusing their partners or stalking people [http://phys.org/news72113800.html]. Which is another reason why women shouldn't be treated any different from men when it comes to stuff like this.

Violence is violence. End of story.

My mum is a die-hard feminist, and used to yell at me as a little kid if I ever touched my sister even a little roughly (as kids do).

If your sister was acting like you say she did and your mom said there was no defending yourself "cuz she's a girl", then she's not a feminist. She the female equivalent of man-chauvinist. Two VERY different things.

 

[Soraryuu]

Since when does complaining about men being evil equate with feminism?

Because that's usually the first thing they say when you ask why they think the way they do. They see anyone with a penis as pure evil in human form until they can prove otherwise, and seem to think they should be treated as second-class citizens because of that.


They're no better than the male-centric sexists of 20-40 years ago.

So, I identify as a feminist and I want gender equality but by your broad interpretation of what feminism is I'm obviously lying to myself.

You'd be in the former group then. The definition of feminism has changed 100% thanks to the extremists, and if you truly believe in equality for women you probably shouldn't identify yourself as one of the radicals that think having a Y chromosone makes you the devil incarnate.

As corrupted as the term "feminism" has become for people like, say... yourself, I'd say it's about time it got replaced with something like "equalist", or whatever sounds the best.

 

[EternalFacepalm]

That sounds like the "no true scotsman" fallacy to me.

I'm just saying, when it comes to the news and feminists on television it's always "men are the aggressor, females are the victim" for everything. If men are the party doing worse like in education the blame is put on men and people say that women are much better when it comes to education.

"No true scotsman" isn't always a fallacy, as it were. The term "feminism" originated as meaning someone fighting for gender equality, not for a matriarchy. It's only more recently that the term has come to mean that, and even then it's not true to the actual movement.

In my opinion, the actual movement really should be called something along the lines of "equalism", as now a lot of people are of the false belief that feminism = "men are pigs".

 

[Thaluikhain]

I do agree with your last sentence. My overall point is that feminists don't seem to care that much about the lower rungs of society as there is little to gain for women by improving the conditions of those who inhabit the "lower class".

Not entirely true. Like most activist groups, far too many feminists care about the lot of people like themselves. Middle class white feminists tend to care about middle class white women, for example.

However, although there are more of them than there should be, they aren't really representative of feminism as a whole.

Hell, if nothing else, there's plenty of feminists on the bottom rungs of society as well, they've certainly got an interest in what happens there.

 

[ninjaRiv]

There's feminism and then there's women who think they've been mistreated and should therefore have more rights than anyone else, all under the guise of feminism.

Feminism= GOOD
That other one that's not feminism but pretends it is (needs a name)= BAD

 

[Dastardly]

I recently read an article on domestic violence, and was a little annoyed to see that every case mentioned involved violence by a abusive husband against a defenceless wife.

Growing up on Marine Corps bases, I can tell you that domestic violence against men is every bit as common as violence against women. But there are a number of societal norms that perpetuate myths to the contrary.

1. Especially among groups like Marines, a man would be incredibly embarrassed to come out and say, "My wife smacks, bites, and scratches me, and I need help." So, in most cases, they don't. The unexplained marks are just attributed to "guy stuff."

2. When they do open up about, they're told things like, "Man up," or "Just do something about it," or simply laughed off. No one recognizes that it creates a hostile and stressful home environment, or that the physical harm is in any way serious.

3. Because of society's view that women are more apt to be victims, they more actively search out violence against women. And it's happening, so if you look for it, you will find it. And it's awful. But we're not as actively searching out the violence against men, so we don't seem to see as much of it.

4. What's more, when a guy does speak up, too many people see it as a man trying to "steal attention" away from violence against women. He's shot down as faking, lying, whining, or he's made out to be the abuser (emotionally or physically) in order to preserve the status quo. That means the guy is being marginalized and ridiculed by both sides (the "man up" side, and the "only women get abused" side).

5. Alongside this, there seems to be a major cultural assumption that if a woman hits a man, it's because of something he did. He cheated on her. He forgot something important. He mentioned her weight. Something, surely -- I mean, why else would she be so mad she'd hit the guy? We don't just "not believe" him, we pre-blame him for the violence.

These factors ensure that fewer men come forward, which means there are even more eyes watching the few that do, which makes the backlash against them even harder, which means even fewer want to come forward, which means... you get the idea. It's a cycle that works via the exact same mechanism as the horrible "Blame the Rape Victim" mentality, and the emotional reactionism makes any intelligent discussion of the matter impossible.

Here's some interesting facts about the other side of this (and this is from back in 2005):

Myths about Domestic Violence Against Men

 

[somonels]

Should not, but they are.

 

[Evilpigeon]

Wow, what a complete and total misunderstanding of "feminism" or what the word actually means to people who use it. It's true that a lot of feminist discourse discusses issues of power through the term "patriarchy" but that's because men do still hold a great deal more power, money, and influence in society than women, and the reasons for this are not based on merit but on gender constructions that cause problems for everybody.

So, why do they hold a great deal more power, money and influence? This should be fun.

Educate yourself, don't ask a woman to do your work.

You made an assertion, somebody called you out on it. Back it up, explain it. It's so arrogant to assume that everyone else is going to come to the same conclusion as you did.

 

[Thaluikhain]

You made an assertion, somebody called you out on it. Back it up, explain it. It's so arrogant to assume that everyone else is going to come to the same conclusion as you did.

Er, she wasn't called out on the accuracy on what she said, someone demanded that she explain the reasons for things being they way they are.

That's not the same thing at all.

 

[Blow_Pop]

Personally as an egalitarian I believe that NO ONE should hit anyone else regardless of gender identity/sex organs UNLESS it is all consensual and something in like BDSM. However getting into that exception there will derail so quickly... I believe that either women need to get harsher punishments in the legal system or men need to receive less harsh punishments. It isn't fair that two people can commit the same act of violence and one receives a harsher punishment because of their gender. Because they are supposedly the "stronger one". That's horseshit. Yes, some men are stronger than women and some women are stronger than men. And I don't believe race should ever determine sentencing either because I KNOW it does sometimes. I wish the definition of rape was worded in a way that said a woman can rape a man or another woman. The official definition says only men can. Or anyone with male genitalia.

I think violence should only be used in self defence and people who use it as such shouldn't get sent to prison if they are trans (yes it happens, look it up). And yes, I know, anyone can claim self defence but facts should be looked at not just if they are a minority, a woman, a man, etc. I do NOT believe that one gender or one race is genetically more violent. I believe everyone is capable of the same amount of violence but what will usually bring it out is their situation.

 

[TehCookie]

There's feminism and then there's women who think they've been mistreated and should therefore have more rights than anyone else, all under the guise of feminism.

Feminism= GOOD
That other one that's not feminism but pretends it is (needs a name)= BAD

I've always called them feminazi's.

Equalist= Equal rights for all.
Feminist= Equal rights for women (not sayings others don't needs them but it's just focusing on one thing at a time).
Feminazi= The outspoken sexist man hating group.

Saying all feminist are bad because of one outspoken group is like saying christianity is represented by the Westboro Baptist Church.

OT: You shouldn't hit a girl because you shouldn't hit anyone. If someone does hit you, you should be allowed to defend yourself and they should be punished the same regardless of gender.

 

[Evilpigeon]

You made an assertion, somebody called you out on it. Back it up, explain it. It's so arrogant to assume that everyone else is going to come to the same conclusion as you did.

Er, she wasn't called out on the accuracy on what she said, someone demanded that she explain the reasons for things being they way they are.

That's not the same thing at all.

"and the reasons for this are not based on merit but on gender constructions that cause problems for everybody."

As I read it she was called out for this assertion. The bit about there being more men in high end jobs is true but the quoted part is open to debate (I don't have an opinion to be honest, this isn't a subject about which I'm knowledgeable. The arrogance of the statement annoyed me.)

 

[mrblakemiller]

A few months ago, while in the library of my Christian college, I said something a girl didn't like and she slapped me across the face. We aren't friends, but we move in the same friend circles. Regardless, she thought she had the right to lay hands on someone she barely knew. My blood boiled, but I stayed my hand and my tongue because I knew that if I did anything in retaliation, the people in the talking circle would instantly side with the small, cute, South Korean girl over me. I never brought it up to her, hoping I could just finish school and never give her the opportunity to disappoint me again.

A couple of months later, I ended up in a conversation with her about how wrong it was for me to touch another girl's hair without her permission (which I agree with, it was wrong, not THAT wrong, but I shouldn't have invaded her personal space). We went back and forth in a discussion about rights and then disengaged to get back to what we were doing. The next day she sends me a Facebook message telling me to read her latest status update about a guy who hit on her at the grocery store, saying it's indicative of how men should treat women better. I wrote a reply saying I didn't think it was wrong for a man to ask a woman out, that she acted like men owed women something by virute of their gender differences alone, and that it was funny that a girl who slapped me had a problem with me touching another girl's hair.

Her reply? "I will admit that it was perhaps less than appropriate for me to slap you, however, should you wish to avoid being slapped by girls, you should probably be less rude/provocative." So, pretty much the same as, "Why does my wife make me hit her?"

I'm opposed to all violence. All of it. Never solves anything. Don't use violence to stop or prevent violence. But feel free to educate, harshly, those that believe they have the right to use violence to get what they want, be they male or female. And yes, the fact that I've never heard of a feminist lobbying for harsher penalties for female domestic abusers, never heard of one arguing that rape laws should be changed so that women could be charged with raping a man, never heard of a woman marching on Washington for her right to be required to register for Selective Service so that she might be drafted into a war she doesn't want to fight and possibly die in, is what makes me reject the label of "feminist". I'm pro equal rights instead.

Also, Andrea Dworkin said that women deserve their own country as recompense for the evils visited upon them by men, so I'm never going to be a part of the movement she was in when she spoke those words.

 

[ninjaRiv]

There's feminism and then there's women who think they've been mistreated and should therefore have more rights than anyone else, all under the guise of feminism.

Feminism= GOOD
That other one that's not feminism but pretends it is (needs a name)= BAD

I've always called them feminazi's.

Equalist= Equal rights for all.
Feminist= Equal rights for women (not sayings others don't needs them but it's just focusing on one thing at a time).
Feminazi= The outspoken sexist man hating group.

Saying all feminist are bad because of one outspoken group is like saying christianity is represented by the Westboro Baptist Church.

OT: You shouldn't hit a girl because you shouldn't hit anyone. If someone does hit you, you should be allowed to defend yourself and they should be punished the same regardless of gender.

You said it better than I ever could. Would you mind being my communicator from now on? lol

 

[Eamar]

I wish the definition of rape was worded in a way that said a woman can rape a man or another woman. The official definition says only men can. Or anyone with male genitalia.

Ummm... no it doesn't? A quick visit to Wikipedia reveals to me that:

United States Federal Law [Title 10, Subtitle A, Chapter 47X, Section 920, Article 120] defines rape as:
(a) Rape.? Any person subject to this chapter who causes another person of any age to engage in a sexual act by?
(1) using force against that other person;
(2) causing grievous bodily harm to any person;
(3) threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, grievous bodily harm, or kidnaping;
(4) rendering another person unconscious; or
(5) administering to another person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or permission of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct;

What definition are you using?

EDIT: I posted the US law because you're American according to your profile, but I'm pretty sure other Western nations use similar definitions.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I believe that either women need to get harsher punishments in the legal system or men need to receive less harsh punishments. It isn't fair that two people can commit the same act of violence and one receives a harsher punishment because of their gender. Because they are supposedly the "stronger one". That's horseshit. Yes, some men are stronger than women and some women are stronger than men. And I don't believe race should ever determine sentencing either because I KNOW it does sometimes. I wish the definition of rape was worded in a way that said a woman can rape a man or another woman. The official definition says only men can. Or anyone with male genitalia.

Probably in part just the usual knee-jerk reaction.

Massive amount of sexual violence by men against women, so they rev up the punishment for any violence by men against women in lieu of reducing the amount of crimes.

Same thinking that sees politicians calling for harsher penalties for, say, grafitti, because the police are too busy dealing with real crimes to chase grafittists.

On top of that, "benevolent sexism" (a technical term, though it's ultimately malign) thing based on the idea that women weak and powerless.