Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[Undead Dragon King]

And even then, BioWare's stories aren't totally cut-and-paste. You're completely leaving out the issues of plot twists that make BioWare's stories unique.

Honestly, I've never understood people being impressed with Biowares plot twists. Every game of theirs that I have ever played, they have so heavy handedly telegraphed what was coming that it's hard to be surprised, let alone give a crap when the reveal finally happens. What's more, I've never found their plot twists to be very original, or even all that interesting, and I blame a lot of it on the fact that their fairly black and white take on moral issues prevents them from really exploring grey areas that would be far more interesting.

And the fact that they like to ape fairly familiar sci-fi and fantasy tropes for all they're worth doesn't help much either.

Perhaps you don't understand why you are clearly in the minority of enjoyment of the plot twists. The unwashed masses of BioWare lovers, myself included, do not possess your powers of clairvoyance. I wouldn't call dropping a few hints through the story "heavy handedly telegraphing" what was going to happen. The reveals in KOTOR and Jade Empire were jaw-dropping for me, and only looking back at the story and remembering those little hints, and having the light bulb go on made the story all the more enjoyable.

And what's this about not exploring morally gray areas? In ME2, did you brainwash or destroy the Geth Heretics? Sure, BioWare assigned a "good" and "evil" option to each, but that was a result of bad programming, not bad writing. That was a question of the lesser of two evils.

And fantasy and sci-fi tropes are common in almost any fantasy and sci-fi RPG these days.

 

[Zhukov]

I always love one-sided polls, especially options that insult you if you don't agree with the OP. Apparently if we don't vehemently hate science fiction and fantasy cliches, we are mentally twelve years old.

I fixed the poll for you.

I am filing "thundering prick" away for future use.

 

[Nimcha]

I sort of agree, but I don't really have a preference. I like both the original saving the universe from a big bad and the DA2 experiment of just having one big political mess.

*shrug* Maybe I'm just a Bioware fangirl?

 

[Laxman9292]

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Since Obsidian is the closest thing to a successor studio that Black Isle can claim to have, I can understand your line of thinking here.

However, Obsidian suffers the absolute reverse problem of BioWare. Conceptually, their overall stories are great. However, they just can't make a functioning game.

And even then, BioWare's stories aren't totally cut-and-paste. You're completely leaving out the issues of plot twists that make BioWare's stories unique. Since these are all (at least relatively) old games, I won't bother with spoiler tags.

KOTOR: You ARE that evil Sith who's threatening the galaxy! What do you do now? Betray and kill your plucky companions? Go for it!

Jade Empire: Your master, not the big, bad emperor, is the real enemy and kills you just as you find out!

Dragon Age: You or one of your plucky companions MUST DIE before that big evil monster must die. Or you can transfer that monster's powers to a creepy witch's unborn child who will use it for who-knows-what evil reason?

Mass Effect: The evil robots are being ushered in by a tragic figure who sees his actions as trying to save lives, even as it ushers in the galactic apocalypse, which would have happened already if it hadn't been for a civiliation tens of thousnds of years dead.


Granted, Mass Effect 2's story didn't have a great overarching plot, but the characters and their individual missions were enough to power through it. Plus, it fell into that "middle movie" hole where it can't have a definite beginning or end. Mass Effect 3 will have some amazing plot twists in it, mark my words.

Thank you! Honestly any story can sound preposterous when it gets boiled down enough. Really isn't The Great Gatsby really just a story about some upper class people boozing it up and being superficial and hating their life. Also, someone has a car accident.

 

[Vulg]

I liked DA2, After I finished it I said to my friend that it was in my opinion, a good step away from their formula of as you say, ancient evil plucky companions etc, that I enjoyed.

I'm a big fan of Bioware games even if the basic story is the same, but I am not opposed to them trying new things like DA2, it was just a shame about the complete lack of variety in the DA2 settings, sure it was all the same city and you can't have too much variation because of that. But it did need a little less copy/pasting.

 

[Zing]

Dragon Age 2 was a step back in story. It was boring and nonsensical sorry.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

I always love one-sided polls, especially options that insult you if you don't agree with the OP. Apparently if we don't vehemently hate science fiction and fantasy cliches, we are mentally twelve years old.

I fixed the poll for you.

Man you hitlered him so hard.

(I don't even care if im banned as long as I get to make that stupid joke)

Ot: I rather disagree. I find bioware stories to be brilliance built around simplicity.

And for fucks sake If you have nothing to say to my opinion other than that you disagree with my opinion DON'T REPLY.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh, and KotOR is a million times better than Mass Effect or Dragon Age: Origins.

If by "better" you mean "better at making my eyes roll right out of my head at the corny dialogue" then I agree. I'd even go so far as to say it's a BILLION times better.

And for fucks sake If you have nothing to say to my opinion other than that you disagree with my opinion DON'T REPLY.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.

The sad truth of this statement is probably why we will never see another Tie Fighter game, because they don't want us to play the villains.

 

[Fightgarr]

Bioware do a lot of world-saving from unequivocal evil, but the problem is that so is everyone else. If we could get a more interesting story than "save the city/country/world/galaxy/universe" thing that'd be rad. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of that going on. Bioware may have unequivocally evil villains, but what it tends to have (that I appreciate) is not unequivocally good protagonists. That, to me, is a start, but isn't quite there yet. In short: saving the *place* is uncreative and everyone is doing it, not just Bioware.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Bioware do a lot of world-saving from unequivocal evil, but the problem is that so is everyone else. If we could get a more interesting story than "save the city/country/world/galaxy/universe" thing that'd be rad. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of that going on. Bioware may have unequivocally evil villains, but what it tends to have (that I appreciate) is not unequivocally good protagonists. That, to me, is a start, but isn't quite there yet. In short: saving the *place* is uncreative and everyone is doing it, not just Bioware.

Not everyone is doing it though. We've had deviations on that theme since the Ultimas moved into their middle trilogy almost 30 years ago. And Bioware prides themselves on this story telling nonsense, so I'm going to pick on them because they invite the scrutiny. It's not like I'm going to hold Bethesda's feet to the fire and start demanding good stories from them, because I know damn well they can't write their way out of a paper bag, and I'd rather they keep their goofy stories out of my open world game play anyway.

 

[Condiments]

I agree completely with you! Finally something with the gumption to say to Bioware,"its decent, but not good enough." I've been a fan of Bioware since the Baldur's gate series, but they're really set in their ways at the moment in terms of narrative. Dragon Age 2 could of been an interesting experience about REALISTIC struggle between equally sympathetic sides but they botched in more ways than I can imagine. I enjoy the mass effect series, but in the schlocky space opera sense. Its sort of a BIG DAMN HEROES SAVE THE DAY without narrative coherency(ME2 screwed the pooch story wise), and thematic depth of other sci-fi greats.

They're in a perfect position, in terms of financial and industry status, to challenge the status quo. If they can do something on the level of Mask of the Betrayer(we're not even TALKING about Planescape), I'm sure many gamers would be surprised. Many of us gamers are looking for something that will challenge us on a intellectual level, but they're chasing a different market.

Forget the romances, epic world/galaxy saving plots, EPICCC BOSS FIGHTZZZ, etc. and give me a deeply personal story. Obsidian/Black Isle has done it before where the PC has a personal stake in the conflict. SHAKE UP YOUR FORMULA! How about instead of having a completely complicit submissive second male lead how about you try something like Kreia? Mentor figure that is confrontational, challenges your leadership methods, and tries to make you look bad in front of the group? What about group dynamics? What about hidden motives in your group?

There is so much story potential they haven't tapped into its almost shameful.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Anyway, HK-47's dialogue alone is enough to disprove your statement.

HK-47 is the exception that proves the rule.

Apparently he's a boss you can kill in a TOR raid dungeon, now. Maybe he drops good boots, or something. There are times I think they've lost their minds.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Agreed completely. While I enjoy their games for what they are, it's always a bit irritating when they're considered to be masters of videogame storytelling. The problem is, that they don't get much competition from other developers in the story-centric RPG department. Bethesda focus more on open world games, and can't write their way out of a paper bag. While I love Obsidian, they haven't done an original IP since Alpha Protocol, which really didn't have much of a good story at all (The amount of choice in the game was crazy though) but that could change soon.

(Still love KOTOR despite that though. KOTOR I/II probably are tied for my second favorite games ever. KOTOR I has HK-47 and Jolee Bindo, they make up for the stupidity of the rest of the plot.)

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Now we have KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins. Morality is black and white (most achingly in KOTOR, where the "evil" options are the most absurd Snidely Whiplash nonsense imaginable), the heroes are all preposterous Mary Sues, and the storylines are all hackneyed "Boy's Own Adventure" rubbish. An evil Sith is threatening the universe! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop him. An evil monster is threatening the kingdom! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop him. Evil robots are threatening the galaxy! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop them.

Now, there's nothing wrong with a little tepid story telling if the game and the presentation are strong, and Bioware usually delivers in this area. They write endearing characters, their dialogue sparkles with wit and personality, and they've clearly got a good handle on using music, cinematics and pacing to build atmosphere. All good. But these story lines and characters have the depth of a communion wafer. They can do better than this. They should do better than this.

Well, I mean, ok. As far as the main, bare-bones plots go Bioware isn't exactly breaking the mould. But take this as an example... Strip the original Star Wars trilogy down to its basic plot and you'll find a story that's as old as the hills and about as basic as you can get. A Princess and her loyal band of Knights fighting the evil Dark Lord in the name of all that is good and pure. Star Wars was basically an ancient fairy tale, only in space. The point is, this didn't stop it from being a good story. Whereas the Prequels were made infinitely worse, partially because they tried too hard to make a more complex running plot, and just ended up with something convoluted and nonsensical.

In my opinion you can make the basic plot of your story whatever the hell you like. It can be as shallow or deep as you want, as original or cliched as you want, and that has no bearing on whether or not it will be good or bad. Where 'good' and 'bad' comes in is in the narrative and the characterisation, and as you said yourself, this is where Bioware really shines. They do have bucketfuls of depth and complexity, it's just that there poured in to the cast and individual events, rather than the overarching plot. For example, Mass Effect 2's main plot about the collectors is far from their best work, but in other areas, such as Legion's loyalty mission, you'll find all the depth and complexity you could ask for.

 

[Vidiot]

I feel that I have to throw my hat in with what bz316 said above. There is a lot of subtlety between the lines if you look for it.

Bioware is great for making sure every character gets a development arc, making sure the overall story doesn't get in the way of the smaller stories, and piecing it all together so that you can still answer the question "yeah, but what's the game about?" in less than 3 pages of text.

My favorite example of this is still Jade Empire. The "save the world" plot was masterfully written and realized from beginning to end.
(oh, crap. I don't know how to do spoiler tags. Apologies to anyone who hasn't played the game if this doesn't work)

The classic "your destiny is to save the world" plot is redeemed by proving to be an artificial construction of Master Li himself. He intentionally filled your head with these ideals and trained you to have a monster of a hero complex. In the end you save the kingdom in spite of this, not because you're the destined hero he said you were.

At the same time, every character has an individual development arc that is often directly influenced by you as the leader.

You can force Dawn Star, for example, to grow a spine and stop whining about her insecurities, but that doesn't mean you have to go "evil" for the entire story.

Speaking of evil, that was also the best handling of evil in games I've seen. I'm tired of the evil option answering the "why" question with "because I'm a dick and I hate kittens"
Jade Empire introduced the "closed fist" option which allowed you to have a valid philosophy behind why you weren't a doormat for every NPC who lost their shoe in the forest or has a mean landlord.

Last soapbox rant about Bioware games and good/evil RPGs in general. Please stop balancing the game assuming players will be 100% good or evil.

(ME2)When I can't get the "good" ending because I don't see the point in blowing up an alien weapons lab as opposed to turning it over to the Council or Alliance instead of Cerberus that shouldn't make me evil! that's just practical thinking. "It's tainted" isn't an excuse to burn a book, and isn't an excuse to potentially deny your species valuable insight into your attackers.

When you take away options for your player because they don't agree with your view of good or evil, the player is forced to make that choice once at character creation, and will be pure good or pure evil for the rest of the game so they can get the best bonuses. They no longer have a choice of whether they agree that the genophage is for the greater good, now they have to choose between gameplay and role playing.

Sorry for the wall of text, I just needed to get that out of my system.

TL;DR version:
1.Jade Empire did a great job of keeping the overall story nuanced while not neglecting individual character arcs.

2.If you're going to make being evil an option, at least give me a story-relevant reason to do so.

3.Don't punish your players for actually thinking about the decisions you place in front of them rather than looking for the one with the most "good points" so they won't get a bad ending.

 

[Artemis923]

I'd rather play an over the top fantasy or sci-fi tale with my "plucky companions" than tromp through the same war torn city over and over again shooting terrorists.

Or Russians.

Or Nazis.

Or Russian terrorists secretly allied with Nazis.

 

[Versuvius]

I ...kinda. Sort of agree. But i think it applies to all RPG's in general. The old classics like Fallout, Planescape etc had deep and engaging plots while giving you options to shoot your way through the game or do significantly harder but often more rewarding pacifist runs. Even planescape allowed these to a degree. NWN was also a hit, even if it had a couple of problems, NWN2 less so but still great with many ways of playing through it depending on class. Modern RPGs just drop the ball i feel, Mass Effect moreso by being gutted to fit in MOAR FPS elements.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

All I have learned from this thread is the fact that there are 47 FBI agents on the Escapist, all posing as juveniles...

I have so far only played Mass Effect 1 and 2 out of Bioware's catalogue. Tried Dragon Age and didn't like it, but it was nothing to do with the story.

As far as Mass Effect goes, the overal package is intriguing and exciting while you're playing. But there are a few "Hey... wait a minute!" moments if you stop and look too hard at the plot.

As for the final boss of ME2... well if we're accepting the race of giant sentient machines that want to wipe out all life in the universe for NO REASON other than to fulfill the basic requirement for antagonists to be outright EVIL... then we can accept that the Reapers truly would create something that ridiculous.

 

[Deathninja19]

The problem I'm having with Bioware is their cut and paste attiude to characters and plotlines. It's ok to have archtypes in their games but it's getting stupid.

Some Examples of characters/events COPIED between games:

The Special lead: Child of Bhaal/Jedi Knight/Spectres/Grey Wardens (although I have the least problems with these)
The stoic warrior: Canderous Ordo/Sten/Wrex
The naive yet plucky girl: Mission Vao/Tali/(ugh)Merilll

I could go on but I'm boring myself