Poll: Bullets: Round or Sharp end?

[Scolar Visari]

I always thought round would be more impacty, and sharp would pierce more. I'm no bullet expert, though.

It's really complicated. So complicated that trying to generalize "pointy=penetration" is even wrong. 5.56x45 (What most Western countries use) has a "pointy" end and when impacting a soft target at I what believe was about 100 yards the round fragmented violently inside the target.

People sit around all day and argue over shit like this, and both sides can probably find data to back up their argument. Ballistics is a very tricky thing because it's almost impossible to guarantee the same situation twice.

 

[slopeslider]

Pointy bullets are Spitzer rounds. They are more aerodynamic, lower drag, longer range.
Round end bullets have a larger surface area in the front, if hollow pointed they can create a bigger entrance wound.
You wont be shooting something 800 meters away with a traditional round, and at low muzzle velocities the spitzer round is less effective.
Which is why handguns for the most part use round bullets, as they have low velocities and they can expand and create a bigger entrance wound. An exception that comes to mind is the FN Five-seveN, a pistol that uses 5.7mm spitzer rounds that are made for penetrating body armor at a cost to raw stopping power, something traditional rounds are innefective doing.
Rifles mainly use spitzer rounds, as they need to hit targets at a range and need an aerodynamic shape to maintain supersonic velocities and accuracy.
However, spitzer rounds can be weighted to tumble on impact of flesh, causing greater cavitation and damage to internal organs. Most rounds above 5.56x45 NATO don't do this, they rely on their weight and speed to cause cavitation and hyrdrostatic shock.
If your unarmored, hollow point traditional rounds will do the job at close range. If armored, spitzer rounds pointy ends penetrate while round end traditional rounds are caught in the vest. However, a spitzer going straight thru you is generally less effective than a traditional going the same speed straight thru you. But what's the poing of having a powerful bullet if it wont actually penetrate the vest?
If I was going to encounter unarmored guerilla forces, I'd have a traditional pistol as backup. If facing armored terrorists, a Five seveN or HK mp7 would be a good choice for penetrating their body armor. reverse the two, and you're shooting small spitzer rounds when you could use bigger ones at the guerillas, and the terrorists vests would catch the traditional pistol rounds.
Also, I like guns.
Will anyone read this to the end?

TL;DR GUNS ARE DANGEROUS MKAY

 

[vallorn]

snip
Will anyone read this to the end?

snop

i did. very informative but you forgot that Hollow points have been pretty much phased out after being made illegal by the Hauge Convention.
they have been mainly replaced by softpoint rounds which dont expand as much and certain FMJ rounds which tumble on impact, creating similar wounds.

 

[BourneGamer]

Give me a pointy stick anyday.

Don't you mean a poin-ted stick?

If so, my response would be:

"A POINTED STICK?!"

Or any sort of fresh fruit.

Richochets take extreme angels though don't they? Otherwise the bullet, any kind, would dig in instead of bouncing off. Right?

 

[Jaranja]

Give me a pointy stick anyday.

Don't you mean a poin-ted stick?

If so, my response would be:

"A POINTED STICK?!"

No! Just a stick which is thinner at one end than the other, no point is required.

I sense this was a reference of some sort, went right over my head...

You got that right...

 

[slopeslider]

snip
Will anyone read this to the end?

snop

i did. very informative but you forgot that Hollow points have been pretty much phased out after being made illegal by the Hauge Convention.
they have been mainly replaced by softpoint rounds which dont expand as much and certain FMJ rounds which tumble on impact, creating similar wounds.

I thought that only applied to the military and armed forces. Civies can still use hollow, right?

 

[Jaranja]

Please remove this double-post.

 

[vallorn]

I use hollow points.

arnt those illegal due to the massive exit wounds?

no, they are the legal ones. all bullets you buy are technically hollow point, because there is only lead in the bullet itself. AP rounds (or full metal jacket) have steel in them, so they go through targets.
But yeah, I perfer rounded rounds for their sheer stopping power.

FMJ rounds are lead coated in copper or steel. they tumble on impace which causes similar wounds to hollowpoint rounds.
.AP rounds tend to go straight through a target without expanding and are usualy FMJ rounds with a different shape.
Hollowpoint means the tip orf the bullet has an indentation which causes them to peel back and expand
here is a selection of hollowpoint rounds:

EDIT:
and here is a video about how hollowpoints work.

 

[omega 616]

Bullets are meant to be used situationally, if you have your average Joe murder headed your way, you would want a round, or hollow point bullet to inflict the most damage and they have the most stopping power, due to it being a blunt force hitting you, like being hit with a baseball bat.

Now say Joe has bought himself body armor, you would want to sharp, or armor piercing round to go through his body armor, but it wouldn't explode inside of him as does a hollow point.

Added in bold.

 

[Jedamethis]

Give me a pointy stick anyday.

Don't you mean a poin-ted stick?

If so, my response would be:

"A POINTED STICK?!"

No! Just a stick which is thinner at one end than the other, no point is required.

I sense this was a reference of some sort, went right over my head...

You got that right...

XD
Thank you for enlightening me!

 

[teisjm]

i like pointy jagged flat "bullets", soaked in poison, stuck to the end of a stick with feathers at teh other end.
I'm old school and silent like that.

 

[Elementlmage]

It's an interesting topic, and one that would take a large text wall to explain fully, but I'll try to keep it concise.

The advantages of a Spitzer(sharp) type bullet are greater range and accuracy due to less drag(air resistance). Because there is less force acting on the bullet in flight, it is able to retain more energy and the reduced forces also decrease wiffling (spirally, wabbley movement a la a World Cup soccer ball), thereby improving accuracy.

The chief disadvantage of a Spitzer type bullet is its inherent inability to transmit energy into the target efficiently. The amount of damage you to do a target with a bullet is controlled by how much energy you can transmit into it, how quickly. However, Spitzer rounds can be modified to improve their terminal effectiveness. Hollow points can greatly improve damage without effecting aerodynamics; wadcutters can be used to force expansion of the bullet on impact; soft points can greatly improve expansion at the cost of aerodynamics as well as a host of other novel ideas.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf
(great study on the wound potential of the 5.56 NATO round as well as a host of other rounds)

With the round nose bullet, you are sacrificing range and accuracy for stopping power. In fact, you sacrifice so much range, that even when a round nose bullet is shot out of an absurdly powerful cartridge(think various African Safari cartridges .375 H&H, .500 Nitro, etc) it will lose so much energy to drag that even a basic FMJ or Soft-point Spitzer will totally outperform it, in respect to wound potential, at over 400 yards.

This is way you see roundnose bullets typically relegated to use in pistols. Pistols are intended for close combat work and will be most effective using roundnose bullet due to their underpowered nature(compared to a rifle). Using a Spitzer round in a rifle makes the most sense because a rifle will typically have more that enough power at close range to not have to worry about terminal performance, and when using the Spitzer round, will have enough range to take advantage of its power and accuracy.

 

[vallorn]

snip
Will anyone read this to the end?

snop

i did. very informative but you forgot that Hollow points have been pretty much phased out after being made illegal by the Hauge Convention.
they have been mainly replaced by softpoint rounds which dont expand as much and certain FMJ rounds which tumble on impact, creating similar wounds.

I thought that only applied to the military and armed forces. Civies can still use hollow, right?

just checked and yes. its only illegal for the military.
Law enforcement use them as it has greater incapacitaion rates and less chance of hitting bystanders with rounds that emerge from the body.

 

[Elementlmage]

just checked and yes. its only illegal for the military.
Law enforcement use them as it has greater incapacitaion rates and less chance of hitting bystanders with rounds that emerge from the body.

It's only illegal for military forces to use the rounds against other military forces that have also signed the Hague Accords. It is perfectly alright for military forces to engage insurgents, terrorists, etc. with weapons, bullet, and "techniques" banned under the Hague Accords.

 

[slopeslider]

Wow cool, there are a few smart people here.

 

[jackknife402]

Aye, a single hard sharp pointed round has a chance to do the "Meat Grinder" effect, which basicly is when they bullet enters an object(a body) the tip slows down, but the weight of the rear keeps it going, so it accelerates faster than the tip, which causes it to start to tumble, doing massive damage, almost even more than a hollow point in certain cases.

Hollow points aren't illegal in the US for hunting purposes, if you're allowed to hunt with a rifle in your state, they're going to determine that you should only with hollow points, since most DNR specialists believe the hollow point will do more damage passing through than a full metal jacket would, though I wish they'd realize the dang meat grinder effect of the standard 5.56. That shit is brutal....

Also some flat nosed ammo, such as my .40's causes a different effect entirely upon the body. It basicly causes a little sound wave upon impact that throws the fluidity off of fluid filled cells and such, and can lead to disabling a victim from a quick shot to the arm, to complete brain hemorrhaging with blows to the chest, quite a devistating bullet if you ask me.

 

[slopeslider]

hydrostatic shock?

 

[Bored Tomatoe]

Hollow point. You won't be getting up after I shoot you with a hollow point round.

 

[Elementlmage]

Hollow points aren't illegal in the US for hunting purposes, if you're allowed to hunt with a rifle in your state, they're going to determine that you should only with hollow points, since most DNR specialists believe the hollow point will do more damage passing through than a full metal jacket would, though I wish they'd realize the dang meat grinder effect of the standard 5.56. That shit is brutal....

Wow, that's so off it's not even funny.

The effectiveness of the 5.56 M193 NATO round, and to a lesser extent the M855, comes form its ability to fragment at closer ranges (150m out of an M16, 50m out of an M4), not because it tumbles. In fact, the tumbling of the 5.56 round or almost all other rounds (exception being the Russian 7n6 5.45 round), causes a minimal increase in wounding, and it is certainly not on the scale of a hollow point round or even a good soft-point.

 

[slopeslider]

Hollow points aren't illegal in the US for hunting purposes, if you're allowed to hunt with a rifle in your state, they're going to determine that you should only with hollow points, since most DNR specialists believe the hollow point will do more damage passing through than a full metal jacket would, though I wish they'd realize the dang meat grinder effect of the standard 5.56. That shit is brutal....

Wow, that's so off it's not even funny.

The effectiveness of the 5.56 M193 NATO round, and to a lesser extent the M855, comes form its ability to fragment at closer ranges (150m out of an M16, 50m out of an M4), not because it tumbles. In fact, the tumbling of the 5.56 round or almost all other rounds (exception being the Russian 7n6 5.45 round), causes a minimal increase in wounding, and it is certainly not on the scale of a hollow point round or even a good soft-point.

http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths-about-the-nato-556-cartridge
-quote
"Other calibers of bullets travel through the body on, more or less of, a straight line after some fragmentation. When the 5.56 round was first designed by Remington, it was meant to tumble through a target, not kill with brute force. It did this not only by the relatively blunt shape, but also by using a rifle barrel with less of a twist. Next time you look at an M-4 or an AR-15, notice it says 5.56 NATO 1:7 on the barrel. This literally translates into; the bullet will make 1 full rotation for every 7 inches of this barrel. This was not always the standard twist set for the new NATO round. The first AR-15 made by Armalite, had a 1:14 twist making it a very, very unstable round. One can only imagine the orientation of the entry and exit wounds. Now if you havent figured it out already, the less the twist, the more unstable the round is. (1:14 twist is less than 1:7) It is said in firearm enthusiast legend that the first tests were done on pig carcasses and that the entry wound could be on the lower right stomach with an exit wound coming out of the back upper left shoulder. It left horrific wounds and terrible internal damage to its intended target, immediately drawing the interest of the US Military, in particular USAF General Curtis Emerson LeMay. Thats right folks, you can thank we in the United States Air Force for the M-16/M-4 legacy (I say this without sarcasm). He thought it was an ideal weapon for his deployed members of the USAF Security Forces for guarding the perimeters of Air Force installations in such places as Korea and Vietnam. Before military trials, Armalite increased the barrel twist to 1:12 to improve accuracy. But when tested in frigid Alaska, accuracy was decreased because of the increased friction from the denser, colder air. Therefore, the barrel twist was eventually increased from 1:12 to 1:9 and eventually to the 1:7 you see it today. Although some bull-barreled AR-15s and Stoner Sniper Rifles can be found in a 1:9, most issued M-16s and M-4;s are primarily a 1:7 twist."