Poll: Bullets: Round or Sharp end?

[slopeslider]

http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths-about-the-nato-556-cartridge
-quote
"Other calibers of bullets travel through the body on, more or less of, a straight line after some fragmentation. When the 5.56 round was first designed by Remington, it was meant to tumble through a target, not kill with brute force. It did this not only by the relatively blunt shape, but also by using a rifle barrel with less of a twist. Next time you look at an M-4 or an AR-15, notice it says 5.56 NATO 1:7 on the barrel. This literally translates into; the bullet will make 1 full rotation for every 7 inches of this barrel. This was not always the standard twist set for the new NATO round. The first AR-15 made by Armalite, had a 1:14 twist making it a very, very unstable round. One can only imagine the orientation of the entry and exit wounds. Now if you havent figured it out already, the less the twist, the more unstable the round is. (1:14 twist is less than 1:7) It is said in firearm enthusiast legend that the first tests were done on pig carcasses and that the entry wound could be on the lower right stomach with an exit wound coming out of the back upper left shoulder. It left horrific wounds and terrible internal damage to its intended target, immediately drawing the interest of the US Military, in particular USAF General Curtis Emerson LeMay. Thats right folks, you can thank we in the United States Air Force for the M-16/M-4 legacy (I say this without sarcasm). He thought it was an ideal weapon for his deployed members of the USAF Security Forces for guarding the perimeters of Air Force installations in such places as Korea and Vietnam. Before military trials, Armalite increased the barrel twist to 1:12 to improve accuracy. But when tested in frigid Alaska, accuracy was decreased because of the increased friction from the denser, colder air. Therefore, the barrel twist was eventually increased from 1:12 to 1:9 and eventually to the 1:7 you see it today. Although some bull-barreled AR-15s and Stoner Sniper Rifles can be found in a 1:9, most issued M-16s and M-4;s are primarily a 1:7 twist."

All of that is nothing more than outdated myth. Yes, the 1:14 twist rate made the round unstable in flight, but it had absolutely nothing to do with it's wound potential.

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammracle_Mirror.htm#velocity

Start there and read the next few sections or so. It's incredibly informative and will be the start of your true understanding of terminal ballistics.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Also, an amazing resource that you can learn a crap load from.

-edit-
CRAP, clipboard fail. Will fix it in a couple minutes.

-edit-
Fixed

Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[Elementlmage]

Hollow points is not banned by the Hauge Convention as long as it doesn't expand. Some hollow points are not design to expand. Expanding bullet is what is banned by the Hauge Convention. However Hauge convention is more or less gone. The countries that signed it no longer exist.

In order to be AP round the bullet must be made by material harder than steel and highly heat resistant, ie Tungsten.

Most small arms AP rounds a made of steel, and they are not just hard version of their FMJ counter parts. They have steel penetrators suspended in a lead jacket inside of the copper jacket. When the copper jacket hit the armor, it collapses and disperses its energy into the armor causing the armor to collapse. Then, when the bullet is in the trough of the wave form created in the armor, the penetrator impacts the armor. This causes the armor to be unable to distribute the energy as effectively hopefully causing cracking and penetration.

 

[Ampersand]

I maintain that guns are for weaklings.

 

[The Amazing Tea Alligator]

Give me a pointy stick anyday.

Please don't - I have no idea how to defend myself against them

 

[Elementlmage]

http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths-about-the-nato-556-cartridge
-quote
"Other calibers of bullets travel through the body on, more or less of, a straight line after some fragmentation. When the 5.56 round was first designed by Remington, it was meant to tumble through a target, not kill with brute force. It did this not only by the relatively blunt shape, but also by using a rifle barrel with less of a twist. Next time you look at an M-4 or an AR-15, notice it says 5.56 NATO 1:7 on the barrel. This literally translates into; the bullet will make 1 full rotation for every 7 inches of this barrel. This was not always the standard twist set for the new NATO round. The first AR-15 made by Armalite, had a 1:14 twist making it a very, very unstable round. One can only imagine the orientation of the entry and exit wounds. Now if you havent figured it out already, the less the twist, the more unstable the round is. (1:14 twist is less than 1:7) It is said in firearm enthusiast legend that the first tests were done on pig carcasses and that the entry wound could be on the lower right stomach with an exit wound coming out of the back upper left shoulder. It left horrific wounds and terrible internal damage to its intended target, immediately drawing the interest of the US Military, in particular USAF General Curtis Emerson LeMay. Thats right folks, you can thank we in the United States Air Force for the M-16/M-4 legacy (I say this without sarcasm). He thought it was an ideal weapon for his deployed members of the USAF Security Forces for guarding the perimeters of Air Force installations in such places as Korea and Vietnam. Before military trials, Armalite increased the barrel twist to 1:12 to improve accuracy. But when tested in frigid Alaska, accuracy was decreased because of the increased friction from the denser, colder air. Therefore, the barrel twist was eventually increased from 1:12 to 1:9 and eventually to the 1:7 you see it today. Although some bull-barreled AR-15s and Stoner Sniper Rifles can be found in a 1:9, most issued M-16s and M-4;s are primarily a 1:7 twist."

All of that is nothing more than outdated myth. Yes, the 1:14 twist rate made the round unstable in flight, but it had absolutely nothing to do with it's wound potential.

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammracle_Mirror.htm#velocity

Start there and read the next few sections or so. It's incredibly informative and will be the start of your true understanding of terminal ballistics.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Also, an amazing resource that you can learn a crap load from.

-edit-
CRAP, clipboard fail. Will fix it in a couple minutes.

-edit-
Fixed

Thanks for the enlightenment.

You are quite welcome.

In case you are wondering, I learned all this because I was making a mod for Stalker Clear Sky. I spent MONTHS, researching ballistics and firearms trying to perfect my mod. As a result, I know WAY more than should about this subject.

 

[jdun]

Hollow points is not banned by the Hauge Convention as long as it doesn't expand. Some hollow points are not design to expand. Expanding bullet is what is banned by the Hauge Convention. However Hauge convention is more or less gone. The countries that signed it no longer exist.

In order to be AP round the bullet must be made by material harder than steel and highly heat resistant, ie Tungsten.

Most small arms AP rounds a made of steel, and they are not just hard version of their FMJ counter parts. They have steel penetrators suspended in a lead jacket inside of the copper jacket. When the copper jacket hit the armor, it collapses and disperses its energy into the armor causing the armor to collapse. Then, when the bullet is in the trough of the wave form created in the armor, the penetrator impacts the armor. This causes the armor to be unable to distribute the energy as effectively hopefully causing cracking and penetration.

Steel core is not AP round. When you see websites that sell steel core round and advised as AP round, they are lying to you. AP rounds are categorized by material that are harder and highly heat resistant than steel. The most common material use in AP rounds are Tungsten for small arms. Tanks AP rounds use depleted uranium because they are very dense and extremely resistant to heat.

You can google it if you want.

 

[Airsoftslayer93]

all bullets ricochet, only ever fired sharp ones, so thats what i voted for

 

[Spencer Petersen]

Why am I reminded of the Onion report about the defective hollow point bullets?

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Both types do their jobs. Sharp bullets look cooler but I quite frankly don't care that much. Just kill the zombie, that is all I ask.

 

[Elementlmage]

Hollow points is not banned by the Hauge Convention as long as it doesn't expand. Some hollow points are not design to expand. Expanding bullet is what is banned by the Hauge Convention. However Hauge convention is more or less gone. The countries that signed it no longer exist.

In order to be AP round the bullet must be made by material harder than steel and highly heat resistant, ie Tungsten.

Most small arms AP rounds a made of steel, and they are not just hard version of their FMJ counter parts. They have steel penetrators suspended in a lead jacket inside of the copper jacket. When the copper jacket hit the armor, it collapses and disperses its energy into the armor causing the armor to collapse. Then, when the bullet is in the trough of the wave form created in the armor, the penetrator impacts the armor. This causes the armor to be unable to distribute the energy as effectively hopefully causing cracking and penetration.

Steel core is not AP round. When you see websites that sell steel core round and advised as AP round, they are lying to you. AP rounds are categorized by material that are harder and highly heat resistant than steel. The most common material use in AP rounds are Tungsten for small arms. Tanks AP rounds use depleted uranium because they are very dense and extremely resistant to heat.

You can google it if you want.

"Armor-piercing ammunition is used to penetrate hardened armored targets such as ballistic vests, vehicle armor, concrete, tanks, and other defenses, depending on the caliber of the firearms. Armor-piercing ammunition consists of a penetrator constructed of hardened steel, tungsten carbide, or depleted uranium, enclosed within a softer jacket, such as copper or aluminium. Armor-piercing ammunition can range from rifle- and pistol-caliber rounds all the way up to tank rounds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell#Armor-piercing_ammunition

I am quite certain I know how an AP round works. You are getting hung up on a specific type of armor piercing round used for fighting tanks and what not. As this discussion is about small arms rounds, I was pointing out how small arms AP rounds works(As well as pre-discarding SABOT AP rounds worked for fighting tanks re:APCBC and APC)

 

[jdun]

Wikipedia is wrong. Anyone that knows ballistic will tell you steel core is not AP. You can go to any gun forum and they will tell you the same thing.

http://www.google.com/search?q=steel+core+not+AP&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

 

[Death God]

sharp is for penetration and round is for doing the most damage to an animal.

Yeah. This is what I was going to say too.

 

[jdun]

Let me put it this way, the M855 is steel core. It is a standard US military 5.56. It is not classified as AP. The M995 is classified as AP.

 

[ICanBreakTheseCuffs]

round.some tv show did a test about and a round end has more stopping power causing more damage especially with the m1a1 but sharp for sniper

 

[Elementlmage]

Let me put it this way, the M855 is steel core. It is a standard US military 5.56. It is not classified as AP. The M995 is classified as AP.

The M855 has a SOFT steel core. The core is designed to deform and cause more damage.

The Russian 7n20 and 7n22 AP rounds are BOTH steel core AP rounds. They used HARDENED steel penetrators. Not all steel is the same!

 

[jdun]

M855 are harden steel.

"NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle."

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

 

[Treblaine]

This just came to me out of nowhere while I was playing Call of Juarez Bound in Blood, but I thought that Sharp-end bullets can ricochet off of steel and other similar metals, whereas, a round bullet probably wont. This thread will probably be very one-sided, but think about it. A round bullet would injure someone, but cripple them at the same time whilst the other one would just shoot straight through.

So your thoughts;which are better? Round/sharp-end bullets?
*Example of a sharp-end bullet: 50. Caliber

You just wandered into the Byzantine and complex world of terminal ballistics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics

Like, do you have any idea what happens when a bullet strikes your body? Or any other material?

Can you even comprehend the velocity and POWER of bullets, such incredible amounts of energy contained in such a small mass released so quickly. All of a sudden all common sense logic gets thrown out the window. Water can become bullet resistant, small bullets can be deadlier, the entire nature of trauma medicine and the nature of human-will to fight is questioned.

It is a sordid tale or politics, science and medicine in the context of world war in imperial subjugation.

The question of round-nose vs pointed is incredibly complicated outside a games complex.

Of course in Bound in Blood the actual name of the rounds is irrelevant, they could just call them Ammo A and Ammo B, and then code in whatever stat changes they like, in a game any physics you like can work and considering the general public's ignorance of ballistics they can get away with a lot.

Basically, a pointed bullet "may" poke straight through with minimum disruption and tearing of flesh. On the other hand, being so pointed it is tail heavy and may "yaw" (swerve/turn sideways) so it is tearing through your flesh in profile... ouch. The bullet may be going so fast that this yawing causes the bullet to tear apart (increasing surface area more and decelerating more so more disintegration of the bullet) in effect the Pointed bullet explodes in the flesh like a mini-grenade.

This can cause someone's head to completely explode if directly hit by a rifle round, legs to be sheared completely off from a single round. An account I read of a US Army Ranger in Mogadishu with an M60 machine gun (rapid fire of pointed "spitzer" bullets at high velocity), fired it at close range into a gunman the 5 to 8 round burst literally tore him in half mid way through the torso, shoulders and up went one way, abdomen and legs went another. Hardly "in and out with minimum damage".

Really there are no certainties, two bullets from the same gun, one may blow a bowling ball sized hole, another slip through like an ice-pick.

The real trick is not to get shot in the first place, any bullet wound is bad.

But as to how many Hit-point of damage any given bullet will cause, well real life is no where near as definite.

 

[2733]

can I just use a Shotgun?
Buckshot is your friend.

But Frag 12 is not. It hates you and everything you point em at.

It's a shotgun, THAT SHOOTS BOMBS!!!

I want one I want one I want one...

 

[Aurora219]

Yeah, as it's been said. Hollowpoint rounds.. AP rounds.

Or Magnum bullets.

Or HE rounds.

Or white phosphorous rounds. Which are banned all over the world.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Bullets don't work that way.

'Sharp-end' bullets are (if made from the right materials) suited more to penetration, especially of armour and perhaps cover as well.

'Round-end' bullets would transfer a slightly higher amount of hydrostatic shock through the body as they impacted, which would mean a little more soft tissue damage, but nothing to write home about.

Sharp or round, a bullet is going to fuck you up when it hits.