Poll: BvS - Batman can never win!

[HardkorSB]

To be fair/I always find it strange that there's such a big argument about that when TDKR is the most famous example, respectively to the two people I've quoted. The only reason that worked in The Dark Knight Returns was because Superman had just eaten a nuke and the US was suffering the effects of a nuclear winter, thus preventing Supes from regaining his strength and the fact that he spent most of the fight trying to get Bruce to stand down. I love me some Bats, I'm a huge fanboy, but that's why it worked. Heck, Bats didn't even really do that much planning for that fight. Shows up in a mecha suit, that presumebly he'd been working on for a while because he was getting gold, and just tells Green Arrow to shoot Superman at the appropriate time, that was the whole plan.

That's what the comic books did.
The movie universe is a completely different thing, possibly with completely different rules.
Man of Steel has never established that this is a realistic universe.
Sure, it looks like our Earth but regular humans may be able to reach action hero video game character levels of power (from what I've read, in terms of what he will be capable of, this Batman will blow all the previous ones out of the water), which combined with a power armor will probably be enough to match Superman's power levels.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm just remembering how Batman beat Darkseid... At it was less about gadgets or outsmarting him, and more about buying time.

It's kinda like towards the ending of Kill La Kill. Bad guy is like "Stupid girl, how did you ever have hope that you'd beat me?" and she's all "Honestly? I didn't. But I knew I could buy my friends time!"

In a realistic fight between Supes and Batman, thats how I see it going down. Keep in mind, Supes is basically a good person. He's going to be holding a whole lot back... And that would be the thing that Bats would exploit, because when you think you're invincible it makes your careless.

 

[elvor0]

To be fair/I always find it strange that there's such a big argument about that when TDKR is the most famous example, respectively to the two people I've quoted. The only reason that worked in The Dark Knight Returns was because Superman had just eaten a nuke and the US was suffering the effects of a nuclear winter, thus preventing Supes from regaining his strength and the fact that he spent most of the fight trying to get Bruce to stand down. I love me some Bats, I'm a huge fanboy, but that's why it worked. Heck, Bats didn't even really do that much planning for that fight. Shows up in a mecha suit, that presumebly he'd been working on for a while because he was getting gold, and just tells Green Arrow to shoot Superman at the appropriate time, that was the whole plan.

That's what the comic books did.
The movie universe is a completely different thing, possibly with completely different rules.
Man of Steel has never established that this is a realistic universe.
Sure, it looks like our Earth but regular humans may be able to reach action hero video game character levels of power (from what I've read, in terms of what he will be capable of, this Batman will blow all the previous ones out of the water), which combined with a power armor will probably be enough to match Superman's power levels.

It wasn't really directed at the movie, more general musings about the age old argument of who would win between Bats/Supes.

However, I think it's safe to say that the DC Movie-verse has a pretty realistic model, it's so fucking dour and serious, I find it unlikely that they wouldn't take the grounded route. Besides, the theme in the movie of Superman being so godlike kind of negates any possiblity of the humans not being realistic, as well as it taking a lot of influence from TDKR, where Batman was decidely not more than human. Saying humans could be as powerful as video game characters is pure speculation without precidence. Why would they be? I know Batman /is/ a "super" hero, but he should most certainly always be physically outmatched by Superman.

Superman can't be Superman if regular humans are able to match his power merely with a powered suit that isn't at least powered by kryptonite. Even then, it's not matching Supes, it's bringing him down to your level. Superman is immensely powerful. A terrestial suit should not be able to match him, that's just stupid. The kyrptonians from the first movie had power armor and super powers, yet Superman still beat them, why should Batman fare any better with his earth made power suit? Batman can't and shouldn't be able to 1v1 Superman just out of the blue, he's not superhuman and shouldn't be, it undercuts both Superman and Batman, Superman because....he's Superman and Batman because not having powers is a core part of his character.

 

[likalaruku]

All I know is that every Supes vs Bats comic crossover I've ever reads has always ended in Batman's favor. I guess there wouldn't be much story to it if Superman bent Batman over his knee & broke his spine. Then again, they're friends, so why do they even bother fighting?

 

[Lightknight]

snip

I think it's only contrived if they really want to cling to the idea that he's only human when his intellect is clearly superhuman. My guess is that the human intellect's limitations haven't been fully explored and Lex Luthor is just human despite being one of the smartest in the universe. So by those standards humans can be super intelligent without being considered superhuman.

However, him buying what amounts to an ironman suit or merely just having kryptonite isn't as contrived as some other methods.

Sure, if they want to officially give Batman superhuman intellect, then I'm fine with the idea of him being able to always out-think and out-plan everybody that goes up against him, hero or villain. Sort of like one comic book story where all super-humans lost their powers, and the Joker suddenly became a normal human being, and lost his insanity. If they wanted to take it that route, and have it literally be his official super-power, ok fine. But as long as they keep up the premise that he's just a really clever vanilla human, with an unlimited bank account, I'm going to keep calling bullshit on him always winning everything, simply because "He's the Goddamn Batman".

I keep bringing that up because of how often I see that phrase used in various arguments about why Batman will win. They don't actually give any reason, other than "He's the Goddamn Batman", like that solves everything. It grates on my nerves and makes me want to scream at somebody. It's almost like some religious statements I've heard about just having faith, faith in Batman to always outthink his opponent. xD

Keep in mind, the most brilliant minds in the Marvel universe usually aren't super-powered geniuses. They're usually just geniuses and that usually is what leads to the disaster that gives them powers.

It's possible that DC considers human intellect as being infinitely capable. So perhaps that's why they don't officially call him out on it. But it's weird that non-humans get classified as "super intelligent" even when geniuses like Batman, Lex Luthor and such outsmart them at every turn.

But make no mistake, Batman on a level playing field with superman (via an Ironman suit or whatever) should be able to win through his combat training. There are also degrees of power disparity where Batman's competences as a fighter should overcome the gap.

Batman with kryptonite though? That should be just as easy to win if you were a toddler with a knife and a penchant for stabbing. That is to say, anyone with kryptonite has an unfair advantage over superman. It is the epitome of a weakness. This generation's Achilles Heel of concepts.

Now, Batman as a man with no power suit or kryptonite? That's a hard sell. Maybe if he does something similar to Soviet Batman from Red Son.

 

[the_dramatica]

spoilers: they team up, it's already been confirmed