Poll: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?

Magmarock

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Humans are a sexual dimorphic species. Whatever your personal morals on porn may be; males are always more likely to be attracted to it. Same goes for the oldest profession in the world (prostitution)

Both members probably like porn but males simply have a higher libido. It's been there since the days we had to fight each other of a mate.

I'm getting a bit tired of all this, feminsiums seems to be going for a new level of stupid every time. Equality means equal quality. It doesn't mean communism, we don't' have to all be the same.
 

Gorrath

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Jesterscup said:
Gorrath said:
So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding.
I don't think its about Fantasy Vs. Reality, it's about reinforcing certain attitudes that exist and are held by, if not a majority, then a sizeable minority of men. Ys sometimes these misconceptions are clear and easily dismissed ( I see no dragons, experiencing war will clearly change my attitude to it ) but others already exist and are permitted to some extent by society.

If someone feels that it's ok to treat a woman a certain way ( without respect for instance), and their own choice of fantasy porn reinforces that is that a good thing?
Right, but this gets back into thought policing again. If a guy has a poor attitude toward women and watches things that reinforce his own poor attitude, that's his own problem. It is not the job of society to restrict access to content based on the idea that some people with poor attitudes will have those poor attitudes reinforced by said content. Who decides which attitudes need to not be reinforced and which content is doing the reinforcing? You ask if it's a good thing, but that question doesn't mean much. Are you asking if it's a moral thing? Are you asking if the effect of that reinforcement is good? I think it is an amoral issue and that the effect in the instance you describe would be "bad". I also think racist attitudes are poor ones and watching racist crap to reinforce your (royal you here) racist attitudes is a "bad" thing, but I would never, ever advocate for banning material deemed "racist".

Whether or not someone might have the poor attitude about women reinforced by content they choose to consume simply isn't any of my damned business. Now if they let that poor attitude drive them to do something illegal or immoral to a woman, then we have an obligation to stand up. Banning content we feel leads to poor attitudes is something tyrants do.
 

Gorrath

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Lieju said:
Gorrath said:
So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding. They don't believe the fantasy because they can't tell it from reality, they simply have no basis in reality in which to compare the fantasy (false information) they have been given. If healthy minded people were generally unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, I'm sure the impending invasion of Sauron would be much higher on people's list of problems that need dealing with. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, it just illustrates that most people have no issue knowing that Middle Earth isn't a real place and their ability to make that distinction isn't the same as simply being misinformed about some facts.
But the only reason people know Middle Earth isn't real is because they have a context for it. They know dwarves and elves and wizards aren't real, certainly that they don't exist now, because they have a working knowledge of what the world is like and that Middle Earth is a non-existent place.

My cousin thought Pokemon are real and live in Japan. Not because she was dumb, but because she was like 4 and lacked the knowledge on the world to tell what is real.

There are of course mental illnesses that can make it difficult to tell if something happened to you personally for example, or you can have delusions, but that's not what I was talking about.

And to go back to your example of Middle-Earth, it may be fantasy,but it still reinforces pre-existing attitudes and prejudices. For example, that elves are white. Because of course beautiful and wise higher creatures are white. Those kinds of things you don't even notice.
Right, and I don't disagree with anything you say here. I only take exception to the notion that lacking information and therefore coming to a false conclusion represents an in ability to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Being unable to tell the difference between the two would be your young cousin going to Japan, seeing there are no real pokemon and not being able to tell if the reality they experienced in Japan was real or if the game was real. The former is, as you point out, a common error humans make due to incomplete information. The latter is indicative of mental illness. That's why I think it's important to make the huge distinction that lies between the two. I would not conflate "error based on lack of information" with "lacks the ability to discern reality from fantasy."

As for your example that someone might have a poor idea like, "white people are superior" reinforced by seeing how elves are portrayed in Middle Earth, my response is "so what?" This is not because I don't care but because I think being bogged down in attempting to discern how any piece of fantasy might reinforce poor attitudes is a waste of time. If someone thinks "white people are superior" and are of a perfectly healthy mind, then they are lacking critical information, not lacking an ability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What would need to be fixed in this scenario isn't LotR, it would be the poor understanding of the person making the error. If someone wants to criticize LotR for having this portrayal and its possibly loaded subtext, I'm cool with that. I would, however, take extreme exception to anyone calling for a ban or boycott of the book based on that criticism though.
 

Stg

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The moment the government starts rearing its head into consensual sex - regardless of the form - is when you know you've gone too far.

Is anyone here old enough to remember the days when you could leave your door unlocked and wide open while you went to the market? How about coming home as a kid and just walking into your neighbor's home to see what they are doing and being welcomed without question? As much as people love to think of the Cleavers and the Griffiths as being a wholesome family, even Ward and June Cleaver had sex at some point and to think that people back in those days were straight as an arrow missionary-style people it absurd. Sexual deviation has been around for eons and it will continue to thrive regardless of what people think about it morally.
 

Gorrath

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8bitOwl said:
One question: what does sexism have to do with porn?
Simple answer, a lot, because a lot of porn has sexist themes as a central point of focus. There's just not anything particularly unethical about it. The better question, I'd say, isn't what sexism has to do with porn, but what about porn do people find unethical. If they simply assert that because there is sexism in porn that it's unethical, they are going to need to back that assertion up. Not everything that is sexist/contains sexism is unethical. The same goes for objectification.
 

Scars Unseen

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Pornography frequently involves acts of abuse and mistreatment of the actors and actresses. When the poll says that porn should stay as it is, does that mean including that?

I am a feminist and I am pro-porn. I am fine with porn and think we should destigmatise it and stand up for the actors and actresses who are, by all accounts, treated like shit. That's right, I support ethics in pornography. The only types of porn I want banned are probably already illegal (sex with children, snuff flicks, etc)

Ramzal said:
You do realize there are people who work in pornography and are happy to do so, right?
There are people who are happy to work in porn, yes. There are also plenty of people who are not.

That people have a choice if they want to work in it or not and they are paid well and there is a market for it?
Yes, and that choice is especially evident when someone tries to get out of porn and can't find employment elsewhere. Or when they lose current jobs for being discovered. Or when they enter the field due solely to financial hardship, which can lead to the other two.

Funny how "choice" starts to break down in the real world.
Although I don't especially disagree with you on any point, I have to say that none of this is particularly relevant. People are forced to take shitty jobs of all sorts for various reasons. And people are often coerced into unethical or even illegal situations by their employers(despite the employer's own policies to the contrary) because the employer knows that he can replace and employee more easily that the employee can find another or comparable job. This is contemptible behavior and should be combated wherever possible. It is not, however, an issue specific to the porn industry, but rather a problem with jobs that don't require specialized knowledge or training. Porn just happens to be one of those. It's a problem that needs to be solved on a much larger scale than any one industry.

As for the problem of post-porn employment, that's less a problem with the porn industry itself, and more with society's perception of it. In a non-puritanical sexism free society, that might be less of a problem. Not that I think such a society is coming any time soon. I'm not that much of an optimist.
 

vledleR

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In a truly non-sexist society (which is an unobtainable hypothetical imo), it would be made extremely difficult for women, especially young women, to get into porn.

In certain feminist circles, capitalism is blamed for certain types of sexism. That certainly applies to the porn industry, especially since the advent of the internet. Most woman who get into porn have been sexually abused in some way, and almost all wouldn't even think about doing porn if it wouldn't bring the cash; There are no more than two porn actresses (that I know of) who claim they would still do porn if they had millions of dollars.
 

someonehairy-ish

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I'd love to see a feminist porn film. I'm not sure what it would look like, but it would definitely be hilarious and probably not even slightly arousing...
 

Ikajo

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I don't like porn. Not at all. There is absolutely no way to know if the working conditions are even near human. People can talk themselves hoarse talking about consent, as long as real people are involved, you can never know.

And before anyone say anything stupid about food and clothes. You can't live without food. You can't live without clothes, especially if you live in the northern hemisphere like me where it drop below zero in the winter. You can live without sex and you can most certainly live without porn.

Me being against porn is not the same as being against sex. It's not the same as condemning any kind of sexual art. What I don't like is the fact that it's real humans. The majority of the porn produced is most likely produced in the very same fashion as prostitution, trafficking.

Erotica is fine, drawn sex is fine, novels with sexual themes are fine, short-stories. All that is fine, as long it's not too sick stuff, it's the true essence of fantasy.

You can be against porn and still have a positive attitude toward sex and sexuality. I actually of the opinion that it is porn that is detrimental to a positive sexuality. Porn-addiction are a very much real thing and recent studies from Sweden show that teenager whose been exposed to porn have a unhealthy consummation of the stuff (3-5h/day, young teens). It's naive to think that won't have an effect on their sex life later. And Sweden is a very sex positive country, the expected age of loosing your virginity is 17! (I read this in newspapers btw and that was a while back so to find the study you might want to do a google search. I'm hitting the hay, it's around 10p.m. where I live.)
 

Jennacide

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The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal. But two or more consenting adults having sex on film to make a living? That's their choice, let them live how they want to live. Too many of you in this thread are focusing on how it's filmed catering toward men, that's just capitalism. They know their market and cater to it. It's not the same as forced marketing practices like the Pink Aisle in toy stores.

This is one of those things that bothers me about the current trend of up and coming feminists, the fact they're being spoken to primarily by the very vocal fringes that think all sexuality is wrong. There are pro-pornography feminists, a few in this thread even, myself included. And personally I feel that if you are a feminist you should not be taking issue with how any woman CHOOSES to live her life, but the real issues we still can't control like the gender-pay divide. Amusingly, pornography is the one place the pay divide works in reverse. (Though that is more of a issue of supply and demand dictating wage) Many women in the field are happy to be making money off of sex and enjoy it, while others don't really enjoy it and simply want the paycheck. This speaks more about the realistic availability of equal pay for women than it does say anything damning about porn itself.

I also just want to comment on one last thing that I've seen mentioned, which is the fake 'abuse' of women in some porn. First off, it is faked, and while I wish it didn't happen at all sometimes, it is a directors choice to make it for that sort of audience. If an actress didn't want to do it, they wouldn't. Heck, some of the porn actresses volunteer for it because that's what gets them off best. (Sadie West is one of the best known cases of this, so much that even I know of her) A lot of this discussion feels like it's being had from the point of onlookers assuming all women have this purity about them. Some of us like it rough, we all have our own tastes and fetishes, it's not just men that do.
 

Gorrath

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Jennacide said:
I also just want to comment on one last thing that I've seen mentioned, which is the fake 'abuse' of women in some porn. First off, it is faked, and while I wish it didn't happen at all sometimes, it is a directors choice to make it for that sort of audience. If an actress didn't want to do it, they wouldn't. Heck, some of the porn actresses volunteer for it because that's what gets them off best. (Sadie West is one of the best known cases of this, so much that even I know of her) A lot of this discussion feels like it's being had from the point of onlookers assuming all women have this purity about them. Some of us like it rough, we all have our own tastes and fetishes, it's not just men that do.
While I agree with all of your post, I wanted to talk about this point specifically and note why I agree and why many do not. There seems to be a strong emphasis in feminism (please note: I am a feminist too) on the idea of women as victims. While this emphasis is usually a correct vantage point from which to view a lot of feminist issues, it sometimes becomes all-consuming, so much so that any portrayal of a woman as a victim becomes viewed by some feminists as unethical. Couple this view with people not being able to understand why certain power dynamics in sexual fantasy turn people on, and you end up with a lot of backlash against something that should be considered benign.

As you rightly point out, there are a lot of women who love fetishism and like things to be rough, objectifying, sexist and even degrading or victimizing. I think people would do well to understand that there are plenty of women who like their sexual fantasies that way. But there are those that will insist without faltering that any woman who likes their fantasies that way are simply brainwashed into thinking they like it, that liking it is somehow something they should be "cured" of, or that any production of porn with those themes is inherently unethical whether people like it or not.

I imagine you likely already know everything I've put in my reply here but your post prompted me to want to talk about these factors simply because your thoughts seemed a great jumping off point. I hope it doesn't come off as me lecturing. Thanks for your thoughts!
 

cleric of the order

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Well this is quite something.
I just don't know where or how someone comes to this question but frankly I think it is a poisonous kind of thinking. (I am referring to a blog post I read about how all men that enjoy porn support rape)
While I do not enjoy porn(even if i did not going into any of the ins and outs on a public space), in a lot of areas I think at least some people should be allowed to observe or have a outlet for their sexual frustrations as long as it does not harm another human being.
The argument of sexual objectification is off to me, the people going into porn have a choice and attempts to destory or impede it on moral grounds have only validated it.
As I see it, it is a legal practice and does not condone sexism any more then romance novels or anything a woman does to auto simulate themselves.
Further more the enforcement of such a law would impede our access to the internet as we have to question what dictates porn? I suspect art of a NSFW/questionabl quality would also be lumped together and if not someone would eventually pencil it in.
Say Buh bye to most of tumblr if that happen.
And me because frankly that would mean we went full circle to the turn of the century without the pragmatic sanity or the windswept Scottish hamlets in which robenson davvies begins his novels and leaves the solemn nature of post Victorian Canada open.
further more while against my preferences I do not believe that rape simulating....wait this is a video game and geek culture site why are we having this conversation at all. (I hate leaving a point unmade, some people like rape and as long as no human beings where harmed in the making I'd wager it'd be better to let them have it in the hopes rape stays on the decline, which I have been informed it has been since porn was highly accessible, also what the heck is a porn addictive, I could understand psychological dependance but otherwise staph. Porn is not the addiction, or the subject of the pleasure it is the auto stimulation)
Seriously, let men wank in peace, and keep iceland away from all of this. they are crazy.
And can we get back to talking about something interesting, like dragon age or the next edition of Kings of war comi...Nobody plays kings of war
NOBODY
 

Lieju

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Gorrath said:
As for your example that someone might have a poor idea like, "white people are superior" reinforced by seeing how elves are portrayed in Middle Earth, my response is "so what?" This is not because I don't care but because I think being bogged down in attempting to discern how any piece of fantasy might reinforce poor attitudes is a waste of time. If someone thinks "white people are superior" and are of a perfectly healthy mind, then they are lacking critical information, not lacking an ability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What would need to be fixed in this scenario isn't LotR, it would be the poor understanding of the person making the error. If someone wants to criticize LotR for having this portrayal and its possibly loaded subtext, I'm cool with that. I would, however, take extreme exception to anyone calling for a ban or boycott of the book based on that criticism though.
I said nothing about banning anything. All I was talking about was criticism. And for the record, I'm a huge fan of Tolkien's work, which is exactly why trying to pinpoint any possible problems with it is important to me.

Also like it or not, LOTR is still very influential, and those kinds of attitudes and biases for what fantasy 'should' be do exist.

someonehairy-ish said:
I'd love to see a feminist porn film. I'm not sure what it would look like, but it would definitely be hilarious and probably not even slightly arousing...
There would be dragons. Also people would listen to each other's needs and sex would be portrayed in a way that's appealing to women. Then more dragons.

I'm willing to write the script for this project by the way. Call me.
 

DefunctTheory

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someonehairy-ish said:
I'd love to see a feminist porn film. I'm not sure what it would look like, but it would definitely be hilarious and probably not even slightly arousing...
Obligatory xkcd requested.



On a more serious note, there is 'feminist' porn (Often labeled 'Porn for Women'). It is quite arousing.
 

The Squid King

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The general consensus among feminists that I have spoken to is that porn is okay if porn stars are treated with respect by those in charge. This includes stuff like having the option to use contraception, being paid fairly, and having sexual check-ups paid for (as STDs and stuff like that are a potential occupational hazard). Some feminists argue that the concept of porn itself is sexist but people who share that view in my experience are the minority in feminist circles.
 

Inglorious891

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
I'm just gonna comment on the banning option.

How can anyone seriously consider banning anything nowadays? It's not a grown-up approach to a situation if you just try to shut it out completly.
It doesnt work. Not with alcohol, not with drugs and definitly not with porn. Why try the same thing over and over and expect diffrent results? That's foolish.
Obviously banning damn near anything people like nowadays isn't going to work, so you'd just have to suspend your disbelief and imagine a world where it would be possible to ban most porn from society.

8bitOwl said:
One question: what does sexism have to do with porn?
The fact that certain people outside of religious fundamentalists view it as evil due to concerns raised over its depiction of women and sex. Those people are a huge minority, I realize, but I still thought this would be a decent topic of discussion.
 

Inglorious891

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Ikajo said:
I don't like porn. Not at all. There is absolutely no way to know if the working conditions are even near human. People can talk themselves hoarse talking about consent, as long as real people are involved, you can never know.

And before anyone say anything stupid about food and clothes. You can't live without food. You can't live without clothes, especially if you live in the northern hemisphere like me where it drop below zero in the winter. You can live without sex and you can most certainly live without porn.

Me being against porn is not the same as being against sex. It's not the same as condemning any kind of sexual art. What I don't like is the fact that it's real humans. The majority of the porn produced is most likely produced in the very same fashion as prostitution, trafficking.

Erotica is fine, drawn sex is fine, novels with sexual themes are fine, short-stories. All that is fine, as long it's not too sick stuff, it's the true essence of fantasy.

You can be against porn and still have a positive attitude toward sex and sexuality. I actually of the opinion that it is porn that is detrimental to a positive sexuality. Porn-addiction are a very much real thing and recent studies from Sweden show that teenager whose been exposed to porn have a unhealthy consummation of the stuff (3-5h/day, young teens). It's naive to think that won't have an effect on their sex life later. And Sweden is a very sex positive country, the expected age of loosing your virginity is 17! (I read this in newspapers btw and that was a while back so to find the study you might want to do a google search. I'm hitting the hay, it's around 10p.m. where I live.)
What's the difference between drawn porn and filmed porn? Would pictures of two people going at it be OK? Are hentai videos OK? If so, then how does that work since they're usually more sexual and not female friendly? Your issue with filmed porn seems to be mainly because those involved are often harmed in the making, but if there were more regulations placed would it be OK?

As for causing unrealistic expectations and the like, if society was more open about sex, porn, and the dangers of becoming addicted to it, is easily something that could come up with the "birds and the bees" talk, along with the danger of unrealisitic expectations. Most people who view porn don't suffer from addiction, but addiction is easily possible. Just become some people get addicted doesn't mean everyone who views porn might become addicted as well.
 

Azure23

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The idea of banning porn due to some type of moral decay in its consumers is pretty ludicrous and I stand firmly against it on principle. What we need to worry about is protecting the men and women who perform in it. The oversight in the industry is atrocious, it's a very tight knit circle of producers all covering each other's back and enforcing blacklists against performers who speak out about abuse suffered by them. It is depressingly easy to find testimonials from porn actors about terrible experiences where they are subjected to acts they did not agree to beforehand, essentially rape. I'd argue that an outside agency needs to step in and regulate this industry, like the human rights watch. Have a human rights watch representative present while shooting to document and verify safe and consensual working conditions, because as it is, the porn industry regularly victimizes it's performers.