Poll: Do instant-kill knives/melee need to go?

[ActionDan]

This is why Knives in Counter Strike are a lot more fun to use. It takes 2 stabs to kill someone unless you are RIGHT behind them, and there isn't much of a leeway either side so you can't instant sidestab someone. I think it takes about 5 or 6 slashes to kill someone, so it makes it harder to actually get a knife kill, and when you do, it's a much better feeling than CoD insta-stabs.

 

[Korten12]

If they are well designed, then there is no problem.

In a Call of Duty game for example, death comes quickly with any weapon. The Knife essentially acts as a combat reset button for when people fail at the primary skills of the game. The melee attack is also suitably well balanced in Halo, being highly damaging but not outright lethal in a single attack (unless from the rear) and offers a good compromise between the relative safety of ranged combat and the possibility of increased offensive potential at close range.

MAG is an example where it is done poorly. While a player might absorb more than a dozen bullets from an assault rifle, a single attack from the knife is sufficient to score a kill. This lead to countless silly scenarios where a player would be shooting at another and would land many hits on the approach only to die instantly to a knife. But, honestly, the knife was just one of many questionable design choices that kept me from playing that game for any length of time.

When was the last time you played MAG? For the most part it isn't like that anymore. Lots of time in MAG, I need to knife a person twice to kill them, from the back its once, but from front it's twice.

 

[Spencer Petersen]

Knives can be instant kill, but switching to them has to take more than a microsecond. Make the melee button equip a knife rather than swing it, and give it a pistol duration switch time.

 

[Treblaine]

I definitely think for game balance that Melee should be potent, otherwise people would have no reason to ever use it. But one-hit-insta-kill is maybe too much.

Here is some ideas I have come up with:
-stabbing with a knife causes damage and stuns but need to HOLD melee to make it a fatal move such as "stab in, then slice open" unless you aim high and hit in the neck or head. Otherwise two knife jabs should be necessary.
-non-knife melee such as whack with rifle-butt should not insta-kill but have a stun grenade like effect; sending the enemy spinning back with blurred vision unable to shoot, you you can reload and shoot them or hit them again - in the cranium - to finish them off. Damage is good for a "finishing move" after shooting a few times
-(borrowing from TF2 charging-targe equipped Demoman) melee can insta kill if you are sprinting into opponent and press melee at the right moment
-melee from behind more deadly, ask a Doctor how deadly it would be to have an 8lbs rifle but slammed into the base of someone's skull. You're going down in one hit and short of immediate medical treatment you're never getting up again.

BTW, contrary to what movies depict getting knocked unconscious from a bash to he head is pretty fucking deadly, about as deadly as passing out from blood loss which is how most die from gunshot wounds.

Small note on knives:
-they generally create worse wounds than say a shot from a pistol or submachine gun, as a blade is wider than a knife and can penetrate about as deep.
-knifes can penetrate kevlar vests that most pistol rounds cannot due to the amount of force on such a narrow knife tip.
-human fight-or-flight response favours attacking with a knife (brute force "punches") more than guns (calm and carefully aiming)

 

[Treblaine]

Of all of the melee attacks, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I think Halo probably does the best job. Enough damage to justify its use over guns in close-up firefights and you can still get an instant kill for surprising someone.

I haven't played Reach, so I can't comment on that, but as I mentioned before I like the TF2 spy mechanism, so I'm not totally against the knife having an instakill function, I just don't think it should be by default. By all means, reward players who have used stealth properly and snuck up on a dude, but some schmuck I've bumped into by chance coming around the corner? Make him earn his frag.

I think he's talking about the pre-Reach Halo games where a single bash from behind was insta-kill. It takes two hits to kill from the front. Knives didn't appear till Halo Reach.

So in Halo everyone is using a Melee attack a lot like TF2 spy, only they just have to press a button, not select a particular melee weapon.

 

[Gabanuka]

TF2 has the best way in my opinion. As for most FPS's I think a button that does melee but isnt insta kill would be the best.

 

[timeadept]

i'm not sure which game you guys are thinking about when talking about insta kill knives but i'm thinking FPSes like your cod and modern warfare. In these games it is an accomplishment to get that close to someone without dieing, if knives were anything BUT insta kill they would be useless. It may not be realistic that being stabbed in the face killed you... immediately, but if the knife weren't insta kill, you woulda gotten shot in the face, at point blank range.

 

[Chibz]

I prefer how Perfect Dark handled melee combat.

Unarmed strikes can daze/steal their weapons. Pistol whipping is, realistically, not very deadly.

Perfect Dark on 360 arcade, did it right. The core game did it right before CoD was even shat out by the least creative men in the planet.

 

[AWDMANOUT]

I think the thrown melee weapons should go. A thrown knife/axe won't automatically kill you 100% of the time. That's unrealistic.

 

[Popadoo]

Think of it this way. It's harder to get a knife kill than empty a machine gun in someone's chest, so it's an insta-kill because it needs a higher reward than normal gun kills.

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

The knife is one of the most infuriating problems that has plagued Call of Duty for a long time now. It makes no sense that you can survive 5 bullets to the chest but if your freakin' toe gets sliced with a combat knife, GAME OVER MAN!

I'm not even going to start about MW2 knife lunges. Like it's a Halo 2 plasma sword or something.

 

[-Samurai-]

Knives need to go all together. The rifle bash in CoD(1) was great. Superb hit detection, and it didn't always yield a 1 hit kill.

 

[Keith Reedy]

My opinion on this is simple BBC2 did it right slow animation and only at extremely close range, so long as they don't run though a hail of lead its fine. although I like the Idea of knocking you down so they can shoot u. Or the shotgun having an instakill were u slam it into them barrel first and pull the trigger

 

[Keith Reedy]

You don't know anything about what a bullet does when it penetrates into your body do you? A bullet fragments shredding you inards and causing massive damage. A knife even with a serrated blade leaves a much cleaner and more survivable wound. And since in most of these games you might as well be armored with duct tape and tissue paper.

 

[TheDooD]

I think there should be something of a compromise. Knives should kill instantly, because they're more likely to perforate kevlar, but the main melee attack should be smacking someone with your gun. Don't get me wrong, it should be lethal, but not so immediately. Smacking someone in the face should do MASSIVE damage, but smacking them in the arm or body shouldn't do as much. There are a lot of unexplored aspects of melee combat, too, like smacking someone in the gut to bend them over, smacking them in the arm to throw off their aim, that would be cool.

This here. There's a need for better weapon melee then just relying on a OHK knives.

 

[Geekosaurus]

I'm surprised how close this poll is. I'd have preferred if you could have just chosen yes or no, I'd like to have seen how those 'maybes' divided up. Personally I loathe the knife in COD games. It should be two-hit kill in core game modes. Or just get rid of it all together. Shame it's not ever going to happen.

 

[OliverTwist72]

I have no problems with insta-kill melee forwards, backwards, or sideways. I think people have a problem with in particular is Commando from MW2. They feel that jumping 10 feet to instagib you is unacceptable (IMO Ninja is a far superior perk, but I digress).

Another additional problem people have is the auto-aim of the melee combat in CoD. If you knife with someone somewhere in front of you, it will pretty much always land on them. I feel that if they get rid of this component it would be more balanced because if you miss a knife, you are pretty vulnerable for a couple seconds.

 

[jpoon]

Insta-kill needs to go, it's just too cheap when people can survive on knife kills exclusively in a gun battle. No fucking way that's realistic.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

If they are well designed, then there is no problem.

In a Call of Duty game for example, death comes quickly with any weapon. The Knife essentially acts as a combat reset button for when people fail at the primary skills of the game. The melee attack is also suitably well balanced in Halo, being highly damaging but not outright lethal in a single attack (unless from the rear) and offers a good compromise between the relative safety of ranged combat and the possibility of increased offensive potential at close range.

MAG is an example where it is done poorly. While a player might absorb more than a dozen bullets from an assault rifle, a single attack from the knife is sufficient to score a kill. This lead to countless silly scenarios where a player would be shooting at another and would land many hits on the approach only to die instantly to a knife. But, honestly, the knife was just one of many questionable design choices that kept me from playing that game for any length of time.

When was the last time you played MAG? For the most part it isn't like that anymore. Lots of time in MAG, I need to knife a person twice to kill them, from the back its once, but from front it's twice.

A few weeks ago in fact. The only time I have noted that my unupgraded knife takes more than a hit to kill someone is if they are wearing substantial armor (which is relatively rare in my experience). A fully upgraded knife (which is surprisingly common given the sheer number of points a player receives) is sufficient to instant kill me from the front when wearing heavy armor with upgraded health.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

they should stay. they give an important element to gameplay and a real soldier would know where to stab for insta-kill knives in cod are a very fun thing to use and before knives are taken out i beleive snipers in that game are more unbalanced and if anyhting they should be taken out before knives.

This is just bullshit. I'm sorry, but I can't think of a fairer way to summarise your comment.

A real soldier? No, that wouldn't happen because a "real soldier" wouldn't sprint straight towards someone's face while holding an M60 and still be able to randomly pull a knife out of nowhere and stab the person without being shot.

i agree that a soldier wouldn't do this because it wouldn't work and it doesn't in cod either. however most players sneak up and stab people and the ability to re-spawn does give some flexibility. the knives are not overpowered because snipers (yes i hate them) can instakill at long range better then knives. even shotguns out range them and instakill people. in many ways knives are the close range version of an in game sniper.