*face palm* the swastika is just a symbol i can understand banning Hitlers face or something but the symbol is also used by the budist or hindo religion...The more you knowRanorak said:
Poll: Do you agree with the Black Ops Swastika Ban?
- Thread starter MoNKeyYy
- Start date
I've seen (improvised) pot-leaves and penises used as emblems in other such games and think it's kinda ridiculous to ban the swastika. Granted I can see why they would since the swastika has been associated with racism since the mid-20th century. I have a feeling they wouldn't have done that if another studio didn't ban the name 'Taliban'.Greyfox105 said:
Anyway: This really doesn't effect me since I don't play the Call of Duty games. Also the Nazi's are wussies compared to Cobra.
HAIL COBRA!!
Actually, yes. You were essentially right. The Hammer and Sickle has an association with the Soviet Union, since the symbol was introduced in Stalin's day (early 20s), but remained the flag up until the early nineties. As such it is harder to tie that symbol to Stalin's crimes specifically, whereas the Swastika was only in use during Hitler's reign. The Hammer and Sickle can be used to mean Communism, not Stalinism but *actual* Communism, but the Swastika again has its sole function - the symbol of the Nazis whose crimes were greater than those of Stalin.Count Igor said:
2 types of people support it:
-Nazis
-punks whom think they're edgy (LOL its actually hindu peace!) and/or feel entitled to much more than they are (LOL free speech)
Neither is much better than the other.
you want peace symbol? PUT A FUCKING PEACE SYMBOL ON YOUR GUN
you also hindu INCORPORATE BUDDA OR SOME OTHER HINDU SYMBOL WITH THE COMMONLY ACCEPTED PEACE SYMBOL.
-Nazis
-punks whom think they're edgy (LOL its actually hindu peace!) and/or feel entitled to much more than they are (LOL free speech)
Neither is much better than the other.
you want peace symbol? PUT A FUCKING PEACE SYMBOL ON YOUR GUN
you also hindu INCORPORATE BUDDA OR SOME OTHER HINDU SYMBOL WITH THE COMMONLY ACCEPTED PEACE SYMBOL.
I agree. The deathtoll by both the Nazis and the Soviet Union is equally horrific.Iwata said:
So it really doesn't make sense to get rid of one and not the other.
Sorry that the reality is different than your narrow interpretation allows you to see. The symbol has had strong religious meaning to several eastern faiths. The FACT of the matter is that its NOT only a Nazi symbol. To declare otherwise just because you refuse to accept this is pure bullheaded ignorance. If your gonna shut your eyes to any facts you don't want to see that just makes you seem like a child. Sorry pal, there is more to this than you apparently are willing to accept.Octorok said:
I love how you defend the hammer and sickle, sorry pal by your logic that should be banned as well. But you don't think so, just cause right? While we are at it why don't we ban the cross from emblems? Can't even count the number of innocent people killed by the church in the crusades, witch hunts ect. Ignorance and double standards, you are a class act aren't you?
Anyway, as for the topic. The ban on the swastika has not a lag to stand on other than, "Its our xbox live and we said so." thats fine. They can do whatever they want on xbox live and I agree that your call of duty emblem is not an appropriate place for it whatever the reason. If it was a matter of free speech or religious expression I would be against it, but you are using their online service.
so by all means, XBox360 should ban black ops as a whole? Microsoft shouldn't be allowing games that allow people to violate the terms and conditions of their serviceSronpop said:
Since there's no explantion for the context of having swasticas other than "because of 'Nazi Zombies'", why not remove the SS uniforms, delete all the swastica flags and simply call it "Zombies" or "zombie mode" or "fuck up some walking d34d $#!t ofr teh lulz"?
i personally find this piss-youself-hilarious seeing as two of my friends breifly had the swastika as their emblems recently
i think this ban is probably for the best
i think this ban is probably for the best
Let us not forget that there was a day and age when the Pope had his own army at his disposal (defending the vatican, eliminating threats to the Christian community, etc). If you had the Pope on your side, you had the "Divine fist" to donkey punch your enemiesEldarion said:
If they were doing it for reasons worth defending, maybe I'd take issue with it. But the Xbox Live community is generally not so noble.
lol. all you people going on and on about how the swastika has meanings and roots in things other than the Nazi party need to grow up and face facts. yes, it USED to be a religious symbol, but fact is the horridness of the actions of the Nazi party have put an indelible stain on the symbol, and it will now forever be associated with these action. anyone in the whole world who says that they can look at it and say the first thing that doesn't come to mind isnt WW2, Nazi Germany, Hitler, or the Holocaust is a liar, plain and simple. So, please stop using that argument, it just makes you look ignorant. All this discussion really comes down to is decency and free speech. Legally, i think that i should be able to make any damn symbol i want. Every one wants to cry about the government censoring the video game industry, but then the video game companies turn around and do the same shit to us? thats not fair, and its not legal. putting that aside, you will not catch me dead with a swastika as my symbol, for the simple reason that is regarded worldwide as a highly offensive symbol and an unwelcome reminder of the unspeakable things done by the Nazis to the rest of the world. Should Xbox ban the use of the Swastika? this is not a yes or no question. the answer is that they shouldn't have to even have to worry about it. the fact that this even has to be discussed shows what we as a people have become, and it aint pretty.Eldarion said:
I explained my position earlier in another thread on the subject.
Freedom of speech does not mean "freedom of speech when I agree with it". Hate is part of human nature, and there is no reason why you should be allowed to hate, and express your hatred.
The big exception to this being during times of conflict, which is what war powers exist for. Right now I've been of the opinion that we should be preventing some of the displays Muslims have been involved in recently (such as burning a poppy in the UK). But then again we're at war right now.
World War II ended decades ago, and we hunted down so many of the Nazi remnants that it's a tiny fringe on the outskirts of society. Anyone who was alive during that is going to be ridiculously old.
With the war over, I have no issue with someone using that symbol, or even expressing their hatred connected to it. That's part of free speech. Just expect me to have some things to say back, or to mute/ignore you (which is also my right).
I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me (and the exception that I mentioned), however as I said, freedom of speech works both ways. Once you start censoring hate speech and connected symbols, it's only going to snowball from there. I actually think people involved heavily in XBL multiplayer should be rallying against this, even if they do not care for the symbol or what it stands for.
I tend to see it as being similar to people using inverted crosses, pentagrams, and other symbols. Things like that can offend the Christian majority in most of the big market nations for games. That said, I don't think such things should be quashed on general principle.
I haven't looked at the statistics recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if Christians outnumber the population of jews, gays, gypsies combined throughout the US and most of Europe, and those are the groups that a ban on the Swatstika is an effort to appease.
In the end just about anything is going to offend someone, when you start worrying too much about that you wind up with everything becoming mindless, sanitary, and banal. Even if you wind up with clans of Neo Nazis playing FPS games and representing with those symbols, it's a far lesser evil than what Microsoft is currently doing. After all nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play with these guys, or to tolerant some kid just using the symbol to get a rise out of people.
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Oh and as a side note, I do not think Hitler's crimes were worse than Stalin's. I think they are both roughly equivilent overall. Hitler killed more people, but it can also be argued that a lot of good came out of the work of guys like Dr. Mengele which is why he's such an interesting figure to so many people. His research has doubtlessly already lead to saving far more lives than he took. Things like that are why things like "Operation Paperclip" with the US hiding Nazis, or collecting and using their research are such a touchy subject. In comparison I don't think anything really came out of "The Steel Angel's" reign of terror except a lot of dead bodies and political solidarity. It can be argued Stalin did what was nessicary to keep Russia together at the time when people realized the failures inherant in the revolution (a lot of people who fought for Communism had issues when they realized they were going to stay at the bottom of the pile and basically go back to doing what they did beforehand).
When it comes to historical psychopaths, Pol Pot and the Khymer Rouge make both Hitler and Stalin look like complete pansies. Especially seeing as Pol Pot is probably the closest thing we've ever seen to a comic book mass murderer. He really didn't have much in the way of a practical idealogy or plan. His big thing was to rise up against the corrupt city dwellers and kill them horribly. He had no real plan of what to put in place when that was done it seemed, so he simply turned to more mass murder to maintain any semblance of order. Simply put I think he was just a sadist who liked to see people die for the sake of it. Hitler's camps were pretty mechanical in killing people, and Stalin's brutality in the Gulags was to re-educate people into what he saw as productive members of society (he figured if 10 people die for every 1 that came out a good worker-drone, it was worth it). Pol Pot actually had rape and torture/mutilation intergrated into his system for the sake of causing horrible deaths, with no other real purpose except to cause horrible deaths.
This is not to say that Stalin or Hitler weren't bad, just that if we're going to start doing comparisons, they aren't even close to the worst.
I'd put Chile into this someplace, the Chilean Secret Police having been accused of some REALLY messed up stuff, but it never operated on this scale.
Freedom of speech does not mean "freedom of speech when I agree with it". Hate is part of human nature, and there is no reason why you should be allowed to hate, and express your hatred.
The big exception to this being during times of conflict, which is what war powers exist for. Right now I've been of the opinion that we should be preventing some of the displays Muslims have been involved in recently (such as burning a poppy in the UK). But then again we're at war right now.
World War II ended decades ago, and we hunted down so many of the Nazi remnants that it's a tiny fringe on the outskirts of society. Anyone who was alive during that is going to be ridiculously old.
With the war over, I have no issue with someone using that symbol, or even expressing their hatred connected to it. That's part of free speech. Just expect me to have some things to say back, or to mute/ignore you (which is also my right).
I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me (and the exception that I mentioned), however as I said, freedom of speech works both ways. Once you start censoring hate speech and connected symbols, it's only going to snowball from there. I actually think people involved heavily in XBL multiplayer should be rallying against this, even if they do not care for the symbol or what it stands for.
I tend to see it as being similar to people using inverted crosses, pentagrams, and other symbols. Things like that can offend the Christian majority in most of the big market nations for games. That said, I don't think such things should be quashed on general principle.
I haven't looked at the statistics recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if Christians outnumber the population of jews, gays, gypsies combined throughout the US and most of Europe, and those are the groups that a ban on the Swatstika is an effort to appease.
In the end just about anything is going to offend someone, when you start worrying too much about that you wind up with everything becoming mindless, sanitary, and banal. Even if you wind up with clans of Neo Nazis playing FPS games and representing with those symbols, it's a far lesser evil than what Microsoft is currently doing. After all nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play with these guys, or to tolerant some kid just using the symbol to get a rise out of people.
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Oh and as a side note, I do not think Hitler's crimes were worse than Stalin's. I think they are both roughly equivilent overall. Hitler killed more people, but it can also be argued that a lot of good came out of the work of guys like Dr. Mengele which is why he's such an interesting figure to so many people. His research has doubtlessly already lead to saving far more lives than he took. Things like that are why things like "Operation Paperclip" with the US hiding Nazis, or collecting and using their research are such a touchy subject. In comparison I don't think anything really came out of "The Steel Angel's" reign of terror except a lot of dead bodies and political solidarity. It can be argued Stalin did what was nessicary to keep Russia together at the time when people realized the failures inherant in the revolution (a lot of people who fought for Communism had issues when they realized they were going to stay at the bottom of the pile and basically go back to doing what they did beforehand).
When it comes to historical psychopaths, Pol Pot and the Khymer Rouge make both Hitler and Stalin look like complete pansies. Especially seeing as Pol Pot is probably the closest thing we've ever seen to a comic book mass murderer. He really didn't have much in the way of a practical idealogy or plan. His big thing was to rise up against the corrupt city dwellers and kill them horribly. He had no real plan of what to put in place when that was done it seemed, so he simply turned to more mass murder to maintain any semblance of order. Simply put I think he was just a sadist who liked to see people die for the sake of it. Hitler's camps were pretty mechanical in killing people, and Stalin's brutality in the Gulags was to re-educate people into what he saw as productive members of society (he figured if 10 people die for every 1 that came out a good worker-drone, it was worth it). Pol Pot actually had rape and torture/mutilation intergrated into his system for the sake of causing horrible deaths, with no other real purpose except to cause horrible deaths.
This is not to say that Stalin or Hitler weren't bad, just that if we're going to start doing comparisons, they aren't even close to the worst.
I'd put Chile into this someplace, the Chilean Secret Police having been accused of some REALLY messed up stuff, but it never operated on this scale.
I said it in the news article, and I'll say it again: if they banned it based on associated atrocities, I understand. But then please also consider banning the plot of Black Ops.
Also I think that the idea of NOT banning the hammer and sickle just shows that something has to be super high-profile and aimed right at america to get banned. Even then though, I bet making the flag of Imperial Japan would not warrant a ban.
Also I think that the idea of NOT banning the hammer and sickle just shows that something has to be super high-profile and aimed right at america to get banned. Even then though, I bet making the flag of Imperial Japan would not warrant a ban.