Poll: Do you care about "flag burning"?

BaronUberstein

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Jul 14, 2011
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Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
ToTaL LoLiGe said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
ToTaL LoLiGe said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
ToTaL LoLiGe said:
I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.
What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.
I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.
Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.
I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.
Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.
Well, race is an artificial construct based on different traits in the same species. Nations are artificial constructs as well, based either on group ideology or cultural uniformity. So...they're pretty much the same. National pride has a bit more to stand on than say, racial pride though, because a nation is actually a group of people working together verses say, the amount of melanin in one's skin.
Yeah, that's bullshit. One artificial construct is not equivalent to another. For example, the first refers to actual people. The second doesn't have to refer to the people of the nation. Humans are walking pieces of flesh with 2 arms and 2 legs. So are a chimps. Do you think they're pretty much the same thing? I can play stupid and narrowly select certain characteristics of two things to try and make a comparison too, doesn't make it a good comparison.
I'm just saying, the concept of "race" is silly to me. We're humans, there is nothing that prevents any of the 'races' from having children with each other.
Which does not make insulting a nation the same as insulting a race. A race, however flimsy the reason for the classification, still refers to people. So throwing racial slurs insults a whole lot of people. An attack on a nation though is not necessarily an attack on the people who live in the country.

And we are very similar to chimps, we share a large amount of DNA, we're both mammals, and there's a reason chimps were used for space flights and are still used for some medical testing. Now, perhaps I'm focusing too much on your example, it's 5:30 am and I'm hardly at my peak mental state, heh.
We're still not chimps =|

But my overall point is; why is it so absurd to get angry over an insult at one's nation if it isn't absurd to get angry over a racial slur, if both things are merely caused by geological divides? What makes national pride wrong and racial pride "right"? Couldn't both be "wrong"?

I'd argue that at the very least, national pride has more backing too it in a democratic nation, because one has an investment in said nation via their vote. The government's actions are based on the collective votes, and thus an insult to the nation is in part an insult to every voter. Then again, maybe people have a mental investment in their skin color.
You seem to be confused by what a race refers to and why a racial slur is insulting. It isn't racial pride. If I call someone a ****** or something then I'm insulting them personally. Don't fling some stupid racial pride strawman out, pride has jack shit to do with it.

Also, no need to bring out the words like "bullshit", I'm just trying to discuss things in a friendly manner, and if I come across as rude at any point, just say so. As I said, I'm kind of tired. >__>
Then don't give me ridiculous comparisons =/
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see no reason why a racial slur should be insulting to somebody unless they have an investment in their race. It would be like somebody calling me a "rusted over robot", I'm not a robot, the insult makes no sense. I have nothing invested emotionally in the idea of myself as a robot. That's what I'm trying to say, that if one has no investment in something, there is no reason to be insulted over it. Thus, to be insulted by a racial slur, one has to have an emotional investment in the construct of race. They have to identify themselves by that concept. Thus, if one doesn't identify themselves by the concept of race but instead just think of themselves as human, I see no reason why racial slurs should rile them up, because it wouldn't apply to them. Of course, I could just be stupid and simply not understand how other people think.

I don't see the comparison as so ridiculous, but again, it seems we think differently on a basic level. I see insulting a group one has invested in as a personal insult, as one has put time and effort, as well as an emotional investment, into that group. If somebody said to me, "Your family is terrible", I would take offense to that because I am a member of my family. It's a category that includes myself. But if somebody said to me "your mother is terrible", I have no reason to be offended, as I am not under the category of 'my mother'. Of course, I can still argue with them that they are wrong, if I believe they are incorrect, but I don't see a reason to get upset over such a statement.
It has nothing to do with an emotional investment. I have no emotional investment in being a quarter Chinese, it has no impact on my day to day life, but if I get some asshole calling me a *****, I'll take offense because I know what he means by it. It's a direct insult to myself and it is saying something negative about me based on certain characteristics. I don't need to think the characteristics hold value to be offended that I'd be insulted for them.
Well, as I said, it seems we just view things differently. Doubt we're going to convince each other otherwise, and honestly, I posted on the forum to explain how I see the situation, not to convince anyone of anything. I'm too lazy to repeat myself, but I maintain my previously stated position. >__>
You maintain that I have an emotional investment even though I say I don't? =|
I'm...not saying anything about you. I'm saying I see no reason to get insulted about something if I don't have an investment in it. What you get insulted by is up to you.
 

BaronUberstein

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Jul 14, 2011
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Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
BaronUberstein said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
ToTaL LoLiGe said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
ToTaL LoLiGe said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
ToTaL LoLiGe said:
I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.
What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.
I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.
Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.
I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.
Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.
Well, race is an artificial construct based on different traits in the same species. Nations are artificial constructs as well, based either on group ideology or cultural uniformity. So...they're pretty much the same. National pride has a bit more to stand on than say, racial pride though, because a nation is actually a group of people working together verses say, the amount of melanin in one's skin.
Yeah, that's bullshit. One artificial construct is not equivalent to another. For example, the first refers to actual people. The second doesn't have to refer to the people of the nation. Humans are walking pieces of flesh with 2 arms and 2 legs. So are a chimps. Do you think they're pretty much the same thing? I can play stupid and narrowly select certain characteristics of two things to try and make a comparison too, doesn't make it a good comparison.
I'm just saying, the concept of "race" is silly to me. We're humans, there is nothing that prevents any of the 'races' from having children with each other.
Which does not make insulting a nation the same as insulting a race. A race, however flimsy the reason for the classification, still refers to people. So throwing racial slurs insults a whole lot of people. An attack on a nation though is not necessarily an attack on the people who live in the country.

And we are very similar to chimps, we share a large amount of DNA, we're both mammals, and there's a reason chimps were used for space flights and are still used for some medical testing. Now, perhaps I'm focusing too much on your example, it's 5:30 am and I'm hardly at my peak mental state, heh.
We're still not chimps =|

But my overall point is; why is it so absurd to get angry over an insult at one's nation if it isn't absurd to get angry over a racial slur, if both things are merely caused by geological divides? What makes national pride wrong and racial pride "right"? Couldn't both be "wrong"?

I'd argue that at the very least, national pride has more backing too it in a democratic nation, because one has an investment in said nation via their vote. The government's actions are based on the collective votes, and thus an insult to the nation is in part an insult to every voter. Then again, maybe people have a mental investment in their skin color.
You seem to be confused by what a race refers to and why a racial slur is insulting. It isn't racial pride. If I call someone a ****** or something then I'm insulting them personally. Don't fling some stupid racial pride strawman out, pride has jack shit to do with it.

Also, no need to bring out the words like "bullshit", I'm just trying to discuss things in a friendly manner, and if I come across as rude at any point, just say so. As I said, I'm kind of tired. >__>
Then don't give me ridiculous comparisons =/
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see no reason why a racial slur should be insulting to somebody unless they have an investment in their race. It would be like somebody calling me a "rusted over robot", I'm not a robot, the insult makes no sense. I have nothing invested emotionally in the idea of myself as a robot. That's what I'm trying to say, that if one has no investment in something, there is no reason to be insulted over it. Thus, to be insulted by a racial slur, one has to have an emotional investment in the construct of race. They have to identify themselves by that concept. Thus, if one doesn't identify themselves by the concept of race but instead just think of themselves as human, I see no reason why racial slurs should rile them up, because it wouldn't apply to them. Of course, I could just be stupid and simply not understand how other people think.

I don't see the comparison as so ridiculous, but again, it seems we think differently on a basic level. I see insulting a group one has invested in as a personal insult, as one has put time and effort, as well as an emotional investment, into that group. If somebody said to me, "Your family is terrible", I would take offense to that because I am a member of my family. It's a category that includes myself. But if somebody said to me "your mother is terrible", I have no reason to be offended, as I am not under the category of 'my mother'. Of course, I can still argue with them that they are wrong, if I believe they are incorrect, but I don't see a reason to get upset over such a statement.
It has nothing to do with an emotional investment. I have no emotional investment in being a quarter Chinese, it has no impact on my day to day life, but if I get some asshole calling me a *****, I'll take offense because I know what he means by it. It's a direct insult to myself and it is saying something negative about me based on certain characteristics. I don't need to think the characteristics hold value to be offended that I'd be insulted for them.
Well, as I said, it seems we just view things differently. Doubt we're going to convince each other otherwise, and honestly, I posted on the forum to explain how I see the situation, not to convince anyone of anything. I'm too lazy to repeat myself, but I maintain my previously stated position. >__>
You maintain that I have an emotional investment even though I say I don't? =|
I'm...not saying anything about you. I'm saying I see no reason to get insulted about something if I don't have an investment in it. What you get insulted by is up to you.
If you're maintaining it requires an emotional investment to be offended by it and I'm saying I'm offended by it you're pretty much telling me and everyone else who would be insulted by a racial slur that we have an emotional investment in it.
I'm not saying it requires an emotional investment. I'm saying I see no REASON to be offended if one DOESN'T have that investment. At no point am I stating absolutes...
 

malestrithe

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I am not offended by it. I can never be offended by it because it does not matter to me.

People that cling to this notion that flags matter offend me.
 

ReservoirAngel

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D'you know I couldn't give a flying fuck if some douchebag burnt a Union Jack flag. I attribute this to not being raised around the same "yeah, my country is the best in the world!" attitude that a lot of Americans seem to have.

I'll just let David Mitchell explain:

 

Ldude893

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Apr 2, 2010
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I can't say about the consequences that would come out of it, but if you get in trouble by the law for burning/eating/deficating on your own country's flag or some other country's flag, then you are not living in a free country.

It's just a damn piece of colored cloth; nothing else there other than the symbolism in it, and symbols depend on interpretation. Someone could interpret the burning of my country's flag as a representation the rising spirits of the people who fought to make the creation of this flag and nation, or a show of how the glory of the country keeps the people safe in warmth.
 

wooty

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Aug 1, 2009
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I couldnt care less about flag burning, even I've burnt the british flag at one point as it made for a great wind-up profile picture.

Once again its just another issue of over sensitivity, pointless symbolism generates more outrage than actual serious events.
 

joshuaayt

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Nov 15, 2009
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Doesn't bother me terribly. Wanna burn our flag? Go nuts, half of it belongs to England anyway.

I dislike flags as a symbol- they foster a sense of national superiority.
 

kingpocky

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Jan 21, 2009
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I view flag burning as being on the exact same level as burning a religious text. It doesn't actually harm anyone, so I think it should be allowed; it's spitting on something that holds great meaning and significance to them, so it is offensive and something I would never do personally.

Although I am slightly concerned about people burning anything at protests, mostly because it can be considered a safety hazard, and even if you choose to protest something in a way I consider offensive, I still don't wish for you to catch on fire.
 

Mr Pantomime

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Jul 10, 2010
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I dont think people should be bothered by it. Im not saying a flag is just a random piece of cloth, its not. Symbols are important to humans. They represent things to us, we gather around them. But all someone burning your flag is saying is "I don't like your country", which really brings me to the point of "so fucking what?".

I dont expect everyone to like everything that I do, or where I live, or what I like. Maybe this person has a legitamate grievance against my country. Maybe we have differing political or religious ideals. Maybe this person is just a dick. It doesnt really matter. Someone insulted your country. Who cares? Theyre probably a dick anyway. Just move on with your life.
 

RagTagBand

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Jul 7, 2011
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Beyond the burning aspect being a fire hazard people can burn whatever they like, I'd prefer people burn pieces of cloth than people or buildings.

If you get bothered by flag burning then you should probably re-evaluate your priorities, perhaps send off for some thicker skin.
 

Shadowcreed

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Jun 27, 2011
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The act itself doesn't bother me though it symbolizes a bit more, and that does bother me quite a bit. It's disrespectful and moreover it feels like the people doing it are brushing everyone in that nation over one side. "They're all Americans, so they're ALL responsible for X and Y!"
If that's the symbolism involved then yeah, I find it disturbing.

Then again it could also be a bunch of farmers angry about a bad crop season and venting it out on the country that had good crops that year.... It depends on the motive I suppose.
This might be racist but really, some Arabs with large beards cheering over a burning American Flag... Yeah that doesn't really feel right. Note that I'm not an American, so its not nationalism that causes my distress over this ;D
It feels like a forebode to 9-11 honestly, the symbolism involved.
 

OmniscientOstrich

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Bill Hicks pretty much sums it up for me:


Any random twat can buy a flag and a lighter for a few quid and make a demonstration purporting whatever jejune, myopic bullshit of an agenda they have; to the point where it's become such a hollow gesture that it amazes me that people still get their panties in a twist over this. Then again I've never been what you call a patriot, so I essentially see this nation as a big floating rock that happens to have better living conditions than most of the other big floating rocks (barring many European countries, particularly Scandinavian ones) on this big ball of water. Really, the kind of impetuous, emotionally driven knee jerk reactions seen to this kind of protest (particularly by the Americans) shows me that jingoism is the thing that really needs to die in a fire.
 

AmosMoses

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Mar 27, 2011
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I don't care at all. I think national pride and patriotism is generally pretty disgusting anyway. By all means, be proud if you have something to be proud of. But pride in ones country as a default state of mind is sick.
 

Saulkar

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It does not bug me at all... as long as they are outside of arms reach.

CAPTCHA: Deep Though. Yeah, not really.
 

Gabanuka

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Funny, originally I thought I wouldn't care, but thinking about it if I saw someone burning the union jack I would get pretty pissed.