Poll: Do you think I stand a chance?

[isometry]

Transgendered students often face obstacles in schools that don't even have required uniforms, so unfortunately I think your petition is unlikely to succeed, but I encourage you to carry it out anyway since this kind of change comes in small steps.

Logical arguments don't real work when dealing with discrimination and homophobia/transphobia. These phobias can deeply frighten administrators, parents, and even other students. Their response is emotional, not logical.

Decide how important the issue is to you. If it's mostly a matter of principle and standing up for what you think is right, the petition is a good idea, even if doesn't bring about change. On the other hand if this goes beyond principle, and you or someone you know is depressed or suicidal about not being able to express themselves, then letters from a psychiatrist would be the most effective way to scare the school into allowing it.

 

[orangeban]

Plus, you need more petitions. That may be a concern for later, but 1 in 8 is not enough.

I don't understand, I've only proposed 3 arguments here (the edit shows elaborations on two of the original arguments, not new arguments).

Anyway, I disagree with you, I think if it could possibly improve the well-being of transgendered or just plain confused students, then those arguments deserve just as much air-time as the other arguments.

Ok, fair enough, they were elaborations. But do you really think that an argument like that is going to hit home? It might be a real argument, but the usefulness is dictated by the amount of people connected to it. And you still haven't awnsered my question, which I have to adjust by now: Is 1/3 of the school transsexual? Then it would strike some serious gold.

No, 1/3 aren't transgendered (or I don't think so at least), so maybe it isn't my strongest argument. Still, helps to have as many as I can!

 

[orangeban]

This thread is just another example of people going too far when fighting for a theoretically good cause. And things like that are beginning to be frequent lately.

Yes, it is wrong to discriminate one of genders, claim one of them is superior, but we have to remember, that men and women are different. You can scream and shout all you want, but it won't change the fact that men and women are built bit differently, and we have to take these things in account. You can't just pretend like girls don't have breasts and men don't have penises, and even if you could, what's the point? Most people like who they are, and if some don't, well, they should try to work on themselves not try to bend everyone to their vision of society.

Also, I never got the point of school uniforms existence. In my country we don't have them and nothing bad happens because of it.

While it's debateable how different men and women are, I still say that you shouldn't force them to be different. I say that a man and a woman are just as similar to each other as a man and a man or a woman or a woman e.g. totally and completely different. People are people, society shouldn't treat you different because you're downstairs is an innie or an outie.

 

[Bobbity]

See, as much as I wish you well, I've never really agreed with many of the arguments that you've presented. Sexism is gender inequality, or discrimination, no matter how mild, based on sex. That's got nothing to do with distinguishing between sexes. They are different, it's not in any way sexist to acknowledge that, and you might as well come to terms with it.

The pick and choose bit seems reasonable, however, because it allows for taste, rather than a misguided attempt to quash sexuality, but your school, being a private school, is probably a big fan of order, symmetry and ordered uniforms, and probably won't allow it.

As for transgendered students, as much as I do wish them well, they don't need to express their personality with their clothing, no more than anyone else needs to express theirs. Were there no school uniform, then sure, let them wear what they want, but school uniforms suppress everyone's individuality, so they might as well try and look past it. Besides, realistically, no private school is ever going to let guys wander around in dresses, no matter how tolerant they wish to appear.

 

[crazyarms33]

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.

2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.

3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

If you want to know more details, I go to a private Scottish school, my petition has about 100 signatures in a school with around 800 kids, and this kinda thing is unprecedented.

I will answer your arguments like this.
1.) I don't see anything wrong with treating the sexes differently. Different doesn't mean less or more equal, at least to me. Also when was the last time that standardized clothing kept teenagers with raging hormones away from each other? Personally as a dude, I love girls in skirts. *shrug*
2.) No arguments here, they should be allowed to choose but unless this is a severe issue at your school I don't see the administration changing.
3.)Everyone was subjected to that same random event(birth). I don't think its a real argument because its not the school system's fault that someone was born a certain way.

Do you have a shot? Sure, absolutely. Is it worth it? That's up to you, but in my honest opinion it is not. But to each their own. Good luck!

 

[orangeban]

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.

2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.

3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

If you want to know more details, I go to a private Scottish school, my petition has about 100 signatures in a school with around 800 kids, and this kinda thing is unprecedented.

I will answer your arguments like this.
1.) I don't see anything wrong with treating the sexes differently. Different doesn't mean less or more equal, at least to me. Also when was the last time that standardized clothing kept teenagers with raging hormones away from each other? Personally as a dude, I love girls in skirts. *shrug*
2.) No arguments here, they should be allowed to choose but unless this is a severe issue at your school I don't see the administration changing.
3.)Everyone was subjected to that same random event(birth). I don't think its a real argument because its not the school system's fault that someone was born a certain way.

Do you have a shot? Sure, absolutely. Is it worth it? That's up to you, but in my honest opinion it is not. But to each their own. Good luck!

Hmm, thank you for your input on 1), and for the other people's input on number 1, I've had time to think about it, and I've realised that difference alone doesn't make for sexism. However, I think I can get away with saying it encourages sexism because it encourages treating them differently. We'll see, I've got a friend who's helping me with this petition, she'll likely have input for me, but I'll tell her about this development. I've got to go to bed now, it's very late, but thanks guys!

 

[Bobbity]

This thread is just another example of people going too far when fighting for a theoretically good cause. And things like that are beginning to be frequent lately.

Yes, it is wrong to discriminate one of genders, claim one of them is superior, but we have to remember, that men and women are different. You can scream and shout all you want, but it won't change the fact that men and women are built bit differently, and we have to take these things in account. You can't just pretend like girls don't have breasts and men don't have penises, and even if you could, what's the point? Most people like who they are, and if some don't, well, they should try to work on themselves not try to bend everyone to their vision of society.

Also, I never got the point of school uniforms existence. In my country we don't have them and nothing bad happens because of it.

While it's debateable how different men and women are, I still say that you shouldn't force them to be different. I say that a man and a woman are just as similar to each other as a man and a man or a woman or a woman e.g. totally and completely different. People are people, society shouldn't treat you different because you're downstairs is an innie or an outie.

If the sole difference between men and women was that guys had penises and girls vaginas, then you could treat them similarly - although guys are always going to look ridiculous in skirts, and trying to wear one to express yourself is, put bluntly, stupid. On that level, you could argue for different uniforms on the basis if aesthetics.

Thing is though, the differences between men and women go far deeper than that, and trying to ignore that difference is trying to ignore reality. Acknowledging this is not gender discrimination - it's not having your head in the clouds. Women are different to men on a fundamental level - their very genetics are different, and as such, their biology is different, the chemicals that control their emotions and growth are in different quantities, and sometimes different entirely. Emotionally, women and men are different. This is a pretty big divide, and trying to pretend that it isn't there is stupid. Homogeneity is not the only way to reach equality - far from it. Equal does not mean identical, and this is a message people often straight up ignore in their crusades against equality.

There are individuals who identify more strongly with genders not their own, but, even then, to try and act as if there's no difference for their sake is wrong, because there is.

Essentially, what I'm trying to get at is that yes, you can treat men and women differently, because they are different. The petition is naive because it tries to ignore fundamental differences between men and women, because "everyone is the same on the inside." They are not, and this issue is as much about physical appearance as it is about personality.

 

[applesandoranges]

edit

 

[Bravo 21]

Doesn't matter if you have a chance, never give up

 

[idarkphoenixi]

In the school I was in, girls had the option of a skirt or trousers. I assumed that was universal but I guess not.

Good luck with those chilly winters ladies.

 

[BeerTent]

Take this with a grain of salt, but... The fuck?

You want everyone to be treated the same, so you'll make them look the same? What kind of backwards-...?

Look, people are treated differently, that's that. Changing the outfit to... accomplish, something... probably won't do anything. If you want equality, then tough. It's how humans are. You look different, so I'm going to treat you differently. A pair of clothes won't change that.

 

[Ham_authority95]

So Escapist, lately at my school, I've been organizing a petition. The aim of the petition is to get a gender-neutral uniform put in place. Currently, girls have to wear skirts and boys trousers (along with various other differences), but I hope to change that. Ideally I want a system where you can pick and choose between either uniform, but I'd also settle for a single gender-neutral uniform. I plan to send this petition to the powers-that-be in my school, along with a letter detailing my arguments, these arguments being:

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.
2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.
3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

If you want to know more details, I go to a private Scottish school, my petition has about 100 signatures in a school with around 800 kids, and this kinda thing is unprecedented.

What do you think?

Edit: Thought of a way to make my points better.

1) Not only does it divide pupils, but it encourages people to look at and treat the two sexes differently.
2) By having a gender-neutral uniform, this firstly de-emphasises genders importance so a transgendered/gender-confused pupil would feel less self-conciouss about it all, and it would make it easier for them to experiment.

Double Edit: Please note that what I really want is a system where you can pick certain items of clothing from either of the current uniforms. I do not want a single gender-neutral uniform, but I'd prefer that to the current system.

How about they make both skirts and pants available to girls? That way everyone wins and girls have a choice.

 

[Yopaz]

No, you don't stand a chance. We tried to do a petition to make them uninstall a software that logged all our activity on our laptops. Seriously it gave them the ability to see passwords to every website we logged into even bank accounts.
Our argument for removing it was that we had signed a legally binding contract stating that that we would have all rights on the laptop so we could install software that we needed and one point where it said all logging tools were strictly forbidden.
What was the result? We had to sign a new contract.
The year after they removed the admin rights which we had signed that we would have. A petition will only take up valuable time that could be spent on better things.
If you still want to try, go ahead.

 

[Ham_authority95]

So Escapist, lately at my school, I've been organizing a petition. The aim of the petition is to get a gender-neutral uniform put in place. Currently, girls have to wear skirts and boys trousers (along with various other differences), but I hope to change that. Ideally I want a system where you can pick and choose between either uniform, but I'd also settle for a single gender-neutral uniform. I plan to send this petition to the powers-that-be in my school, along with a letter detailing my arguments, these arguments being:

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.
2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.
3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

If you want to know more details, I go to a private Scottish school, my petition has about 100 signatures in a school with around 800 kids, and this kinda thing is unprecedented.

What do you think?

Edit: Thought of a way to make my points better.

1) Not only does it divide pupils, but it encourages people to look at and treat the two sexes differently.
2) By having a gender-neutral uniform, this firstly de-emphasises genders importance so a transgendered/gender-confused pupil would feel less self-conciouss about it all, and it would make it easier for them to experiment.

Double Edit: Please note that what I really want is a system where you can pick certain items of clothing from either of the current uniforms. I do not want a single gender-neutral uniform, but I'd prefer that to the current system.

Or better yet, just get people to sign against having uniforms at all.

 

[Jopoho]

Plus, you need more petitions. That may be a concern for later, but 1 in 8 is not enough.

I don't understand, I've only proposed 3 arguments here (the edit shows elaborations on two of the original arguments, not new arguments).

Anyway, I disagree with you, I think if it could possibly improve the well-being of transgendered or just plain confused students, then those arguments deserve just as much air-time as the other arguments.

Ok, fair enough, they were elaborations. But do you really think that an argument like that is going to hit home? It might be a real argument, but the usefulness is dictated by the amount of people connected to it. And you still haven't awnsered my question, which I have to adjust by now: Is 1/3 of the school transsexual? Then it would strike some serious gold.

No, 1/3 aren't transgendered (or I don't think so at least), so maybe it isn't my strongest argument. Still, helps to have as many as I can!

I caution against the "Use every available argument tactic." Even if every single point is valid, you'll come across as someone who's throwing things against the wall to see what sticks, and administrations don't like to deal with that guy. It can tarnish your valid points and set you back.

Secondly, I think you should look at your proposed solution and see what that says and make sure it lines up with what you are trying to accomplish. You have a very typical guy uniform and a very typical girl uniform. Combining the two serves the purposes of the transgender community and maybe a few eccentric dressers. This is fine, but is that really your goal? If your goal is to allow more expressiveness, combining the two uniforms doesn't change anything for a guy or girl who wants to wear clothes traditionally assigned to their respective genders. If your goal is equity of treatment, allowing people to combine the uniforms will only make those people stand out more so (it's not nice for people to judge, but they do. The school knows this and will take it into account. Kids who identify with the opposite gender also know this, and may be afraid to use the option anyways, so how does this help them be treated equitably?).

Equity of treatment and freedom of expressions are noble goals, but I don't know if combining(or rather, allowing the combination of) two already established uniforms is the best avenue to address either problem. Perhaps you would be better served by allowing kids to wear the current uniforms and provide additional options for both variety and some more gender neutral uniforms. I'd say your best bet is to sum up what you want and why in one compelling argument before taking it before the administration. That being said, a privately funded school can pretty much nip you in the bud with nary a second thought.

Good luck to you, though.

 

[icaritos]

This thread is just another example of people going too far when fighting for a theoretically good cause. And things like that are beginning to be frequent lately.

Yes, it is wrong to discriminate one of genders, claim one of them is superior, but we have to remember, that men and women are different. You can scream and shout all you want, but it won't change the fact that men and women are built bit differently, and we have to take these things in account. You can't just pretend like girls don't have breasts and men don't have penises, and even if you could, what's the point? Most people like who they are, and if some don't, well, they should try to work on themselves not try to bend everyone to their vision of society.

Also, I never got the point of school uniforms existence. In my country we don't have them and nothing bad happens because of it.

While it's debateable how different men and women are, I still say that you shouldn't force them to be different. I say that a man and a woman are just as similar to each other as a man and a man or a woman or a woman e.g. totally and completely different. People are people, society shouldn't treat you different because you're downstairs is an innie or an outie.

It isn't debatable. Men and woman are clearly different from each other. Even their brain compositions are significantly different. Stop deluding yourself, neither is better than the other but to claim there aren't differences is silly.

 

[Guffe]

Good luck and go fro your cause.
I can't say I really have any idea of how high/low chances you have but good luck, I should think you could have some followers on this one actually.

 

[Phisi]

Wait if you go to a Scottish school... Why can't the boys where wear skirts I mean kilts?

Good luck to you but remember that as it is a private school, money is what matters. If lots of people threaten to leave or if they are prepared to spend more money at the uniform shop for a new uniform then the school will consider it more. And remember that as a school, it is trying to prepare you for the workforce and the workforce doesn't allow any clothing so make sure what you are proposing is accepted in formal places. Good luck again and your efforts for boys to be able to wear kilts to school!

 

[Arakasi]

I wish you luck, it is a noble cause.
If they refuse I suggest you try organise your own clothing optional day(s), if the hundred people on that list don't show up in any uniform, I think they'd get the message.