Poll: Do you think I stand a chance?

[rob_simple]

I don't know what kind of power private schools have compared to regular ones, but I'm going to give you some advice: do whatever the fuck you want; they can't stop you.

If you forget about the signatures and just get the majority of your year or even class to start coming in whatever uniform they want then what are the school going to do? Get that pepper-spraying swat guy?

If they suspend you for it, come into school anyway. They aren't allowed to touch you so they can't forcibly remove you from the premises and I think most if not all level-headed parents would get behind your cause.

As I say, private schools might be different in terms of they might be more frivolous with expulsions but seeing as I understand they rely on money from the parents of students then I doubt they are going to take that route.

I wish you luck.

 

[AngryMongoose]

I don't think anything will come of it, but you should submit the petition anyway, 'cos goddammit it should!

 

[CRRPGMykael]

Seriously? You have girls wearing skirts and you're like "THAT'S WRONG! LET'S GIVE 'EM BAGGY PANTS!". You could also just have a petition against uniforms in general, if nothing else.

 

[Kl4pp5tuhl]

Lower Uniform choices: Pants, Skirts, Kilts. Problem solved.

 

[Random berk]

So Escapist, lately at my school, I've been organizing a petition. The aim of the petition is to get a gender-neutral uniform put in place. Currently, girls have to wear skirts and boys trousers (along with various other differences), but I hope to change that. Ideally I want a system where you can pick and choose between either uniform, but I'd also settle for a single gender-neutral uniform. I plan to send this petition to the powers-that-be in my school, along with a letter detailing my arguments, these arguments being:

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.
2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.
3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

If you want to know more details, I go to a private Scottish school, my petition has about 100 signatures in a school with around 800 kids, and this kinda thing is unprecedented.

What do you think?

Edit: Thought of a way to make my points better.

1) Not only does it divide pupils, but it encourages people to look at and treat the two sexes differently.
2) By having a gender-neutral uniform, this firstly de-emphasises genders importance so a transgendered/gender-confused pupil would feel less self-conciouss about it all, and it would make it easier for them to experiment.

Double Edit: Please note that what I really want is a system where you can pick certain items of clothing from either of the current uniforms. I do not want a single gender-neutral uniform, but I'd prefer that to the current system.

Its probably already been said, but what the hell. Get them to change it so that everyone wears a kilt.

As to your chances, I don't know. It depends how backward and stubborn the principal is. My old school has two seperate uniforms, the main (only major) difference was the skirt and trousers. Most girls just wore the trousers, it wasn't mandatory to stick to gender assigned uniforms, although I'm certain it wouldn't have worked so well if one of the lads got it into his head to wear the skirt.

 

[Jinjiro]

This thread just screams 'First World Problems' at me, and it somewhat disgusts me. Be grateful you're allowed to be educated, and have clothes on your back, for fuck's sake.

 

[rob_simple]

I don't know what kind of power private schools have compared to regular ones, but I'm going to give you some advice: do whatever the fuck you want; they can't stop you.

If you forget about the signatures and just get the majority of your year or even class to start coming in whatever uniform they want then what are the school going to do? Get that pepper-spraying swat guy?

If they suspend you for it, come into school anyway. They aren't allowed to touch you so they can't forcibly remove you from the premises and I think most if not all level-headed parents would get behind your cause.

As I say, private schools might be different in terms of they might be more frivolous with expulsions but seeing as I understand they rely on money from the parents of students then I doubt they are going to take that route.

I wish you luck.

If you repeatedly ignore school rules they can expel you, and then ban you from the property by legal tresspass notice. That won't help you much. In the case of a private school where your parents paid big bucks I doubt they will support you either.

But if every single student does it then they'd have to expel them all, essentially shutting down the school. And I think the newspapers would love a 'banned from school for wearing MY uniform' headline. I see your point, though, I've met the parents of private school kids and this shit would not fly.

 

[everythingbeeps]

All you'd succeed in doing is forcing girls to wear boys' uniforms.

Which would be sexist, which would defeat the entire purpose of your petition.

I think your efforts are misguided and unnecessary.

 

[Necroid_Neko]

1) What's wrong with treating people differently? We're all individual everyone's going to be treated differently even if we all looked exactly the same except for our faces, why not allow school kids the freedom to dress their own way? Kids aren't idiots, they know how they dress will change how others interact with them, give them the right to choose.
2) Kids who believe they are/ are actually haermaphroditic will 99.99% of the time identify with one gender or the other, if you're saying that trying to define their gender is discriminatory against them it ISN'T, they want to be their gender and you should allow them to be rather than forcing them to be 'gender nuetral'. On the other hand, if you're saying that transgender/haermaphroditic children should be allowed to wear whichever sex's uniform they choose then I support you there.
3) Surely the answer is to give us MORE choice, not take it away! Let the pupils wear what they want with maybe just a polo/t-shirt that they all have to wear, allowing them to choose whether they want to wear a skirt, trousers, kilt, shorts or whatever.

You obviously have no knowledge of how kids feel in school, even with semi-strict uniform rules they feel as though their identity is being taken away, and you want to dress them all as exact replicas of each other, so they lose their visual voice in the crowd and become literally nothing more individual than 'a school kid'? Sure, make their lives more grey and depressing than ever before. Talk about discrimination, YOU are discriminating against kids/teenagers/young adults by taking away the choice we adults have to dress however we want! And removing the idea of gender is ridiculous! Girls and boys should be treated equally yes, but allow them their differences, they're not the same and WANT to be different to each other sex!
I apologise for my outburst, but this idea makes me sick. Taking kids choice even further away from them. Sickening.

 

[Batou667]

It's not the actual effect of a uniform that's a problem, it's the desired effect. Schools with uniforms either openly, or subtlety, look down on their students. They need to be kept in line, or prevented from coming to school in loin cloths. In reality, it doesn't affect students very much from a psychological standpoint, but it's part of a larger issue of education not respecting those being educated.

Look, with the utmost respect and patience for your viewpoint, your opinions just don't square up with my 5+ years of working with kids and in schools. In none of the schools I've been to or worked in was there even the slightest hint, even implicitly, that the pupils were being forced to wear uniforms as some kind of badge of ownership. Quite the opposite, many children enjoy the shared identity and being able to differentiate themselves from other schools. In the interests of civility and compromise I'll suggest that perhaps where you live in Canada the situation is markedly different to where I live in the UK, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And the whole brand-name peer-pressure thing can be solved by simple parenting.

"Simple parenting"? There's an oxymoron if ever I heard one. I think it'd take more of a total grassroots paradigm shift to divorce the British public from their love of brands-and-bling.

It may be different where you live but where I live it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy your kids the designer label clothes then a school uniform. Even with school uniforms you still have the kids segregated into haves and have-nots. You have the people whos parents can affort to spend $150 on a skirt and those who cant and have to get them second hand.

$150!? A schoolgirl's basic skirt here in the UK is closer to $15.

Here's a link, for those who still think school uniform needs to be expensive.
http://www.marksandspencer.com/School-Uniform-Kids/b/43629030?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=0MZ5WYYVZRTR16951RVM&pf_rd_m=A2BO0OYVBKIQJM&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=53882031&pf_rd_p=475115433&pf_rd_s=left-nav-2
This is from Marks and Spencer - one of the more upmarket (i.e., expensive) chains of department stores. Even the clothes in the senior boys/girls sections seem completely reasonably priced to me.

I can imagine some private schools might insist on their own tailored articles, which would be more expensive, but if your parents are rich enough to send you to a private school then the uniform costs are the least of your worries.

 

[orangeban]

This thread just screams 'First World Problems' at me, and it somewhat disgusts me. Be grateful you're allowed to be educated, and have clothes on your back, for fuck's sake.

Ah, the old, "There are kids starving in India, why are you whining about having a fly in your soup?" argument.

Look, I'm a kid, in the heart of Scotland. Yeah, it's a 'First World Problem' but here's the thing, I live in the first world, there isn't much I can do about troubles in other countries, but I can at least make a stab at solving the ones right on my front doorstep. Yes, I'm educated and have clothes, but can't we aspire for a little more than that?

 

[Jinjiro]

This thread just screams 'First World Problems' at me, and it somewhat disgusts me. Be grateful you're allowed to be educated, and have clothes on your back, for fuck's sake.

Ah, the old, "There are kids starving in India, why are you whining about having a fly in your soup?" argument.

Look, I'm a kid, in the heart of Scotland. Yeah, it's a 'First World Problem' but here's the thing, I live in the first world, there isn't much I can do about troubles in other countries, but I can at least make a stab at solving the ones right on my front doorstep. Yes, I'm educated and have clothes, but can't we aspire for a little more than that?

Ah, the old "Nothing I can do about problems in other countries" argument.

Take all the effort you put into this asinine "problem" and earn some money, then give that money to a charity who take it upon themselves to educate children who would otherwise not have had a chance to even learn how to read. Send old textbooks to READ International if you can't afford donations. You're making a mountain out of a molehill based on your own (mostly false and ludicrous) convictions - show some benevolence and do something for the less fortunate.

 

[jimbob123432]

I think the idea is interesting, but I don't think it'll work. Even if you do get the petition signed and it passes, people will probably still pick their "gender-specific" uniforms. I used to go to a private school, and I know that a lot of people can and will be dicks to anyone who is different, hence the uniforms (the put everyone on the same playing field). Women MAY pick pants, but that'll probably be the only change. Trust me, there won't be any guy who'll put on a skirt, no matter what his/her personally feelings are. Unless an overwhelming percentage of the school is TG/TS/2S, no one will risk the bullying. I went to a very politically-correct high school (the PTA tried to ban Holocaust & American History classes lest people be offended by the subject matter) and I was still bullied for liking interior design shows and science by the jocks.

 

[jimbob123432]

This thread just screams 'First World Problems' at me, and it somewhat disgusts me. Be grateful you're allowed to be educated, and have clothes on your back, for fuck's sake.

Ah, the old, "There are kids starving in India, why are you whining about having a fly in your soup?" argument.

Look, I'm a kid, in the heart of Scotland. Yeah, it's a 'First World Problem' but here's the thing, I live in the first world, there isn't much I can do about troubles in other countries, but I can at least make a stab at solving the ones right on my front doorstep. Yes, I'm educated and have clothes, but can't we aspire for a little more than that?

Ah, the old "Nothing I can do about problems in other countries" argument.

Take all the effort you put into this asinine "problem" and earn some money, then give that money to a charity who take it upon themselves to educate children who would otherwise not have had a chance to even learn how to read. Send old textbooks to READ International if you can't afford donations. You're making a mountain out of a molehill based on your own (mostly false and ludicrous) convictions - show some benevolence and do something for the less fortunate.

Ah, the old "I know better than you/I can't do anything" argument.

Seriously, does it matter if you can't do something or if you think someone SHOULD be doing something?

orangeban: 1 person can do something. I don't want to sound preachy or downplay what you're intending to do, but it's true. I raised $900 towards buying goats for people in Afghanistan a few years back. It's hard work, but it can be done.

Jinjiro: If you think orangeban is complaining about stupid things, why are you here? Seriously, don't go provoking people by downplaying what they consider to be important by shoving your own morals in their face. Also, I'm a firm believer in "Fix your own home first before you go somewhere else". I live in Canada, a country bereft with social problems. While I don't condemn people for wanting to help other countries nor do I believe in not sending aid to places that need it, but I think problems in your own country need to be addressed with the same urgency as other country's issues. Finally, you're telling orangeban to "show some benevolence" in the same breath as calling their beliefs "false and ludicrous". The hypocrisy in your statement is outstanding.

EDIT: How is it OUR problem that kids in other countries can't read? Did we (our generation, not our ancestors) screw up their political/economic/education systems? Your statement seems to be blaming orangeban personally for the issue. I feel the same way about people who get mad at people of this generation about slavery. I'm not a Christian, but I do believe in "the sins of the father shall not be visited upon the son". We should help, but it's not our Goddamn fault!

 

[Jinjiro]

snips

snippery

snip snip sneroo

Jinjiro: If you think orangeban is complaining about stupid things, why are you here? Seriously, don't go provoking people by downplaying what they consider to be important by shoving your own morals in their face. Also, I'm a firm believer in "Fix your own home first before you go somewhere else". I live in Canada, a country bereft with social problems. While I don't condemn people for wanting to help other countries nor do I believe in not sending aid to places that need it, but I think problems in your own country need to be addressed with the same urgency as other country's issues. Finally, you're telling orangeban to "show some benevolence" in the same breath as calling their beliefs "false and ludicrous". The hypocrisy in your statement is outstanding.

EDIT: How is it OUR problem that kids in other countries can't read? Did we (our generation, not our ancestors) screw up their political/economic/education systems? Your statement seems to be blaming orangeban personally for the issue. I feel the same way about people who get mad at people of this generation about slavery. I'm not a Christian, but I do believe in "the sins of the father shall not be visited upon the son". We should help, but it's not our Goddamn fault!

If the gender-neutralizing of uniforms was ACTUALLY an issue, I'd have more sympathy. Your rant about hypocrisy and my apparent accusatory tone is pretty helpful, though...

As far as I'm concerned, you both need some perspective - I'm not blaming anyone for problems, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help the less fortunate, especially at this time of year when most of the first world will be indulging themselves. If the OP is near the poverty line, then fine - but the whole thing reeks of bored middle-class political correctness snobbery, and I for one am pretty sick of that crap being allowed to run rampant.

P.S. There are charities that deal with problems closer to home, as well, if you don't feel like the socio-economic problems of the Third World are your concern. Toodle pip.

 

[Semitendon]

There is no poll option for "I hope not".

The whole issue is stupid. Your points are designed to mislead the school from your real objective, and your plan helps no one.

1. Your assumption that the differences between the sexes is a societal implication and not a natural one. Pro-tip: It's not. There are actual differences between the sexes, and more than just the physical. Society has simply exagerated what existed naturally.

2. Gender-neutral is code for " I don't like the way I've been treated as male/female, so I want everyone to ignore my sex and everyone else's, because I can't cope with myself". Gender-neutral also speaks to ignorance about my first point.

3. As outlined, your prefered action is that you are allowed to dress as a girl. Presumably, because you "feel like one". While I don't believe in the majority of the idea of "transgendered", I think if you want to dress that way, you should be allowed to. But your plan is not going to result in your desired outcome, but rather an intentional ignoring that is inflicted on everyone around you. Congrats, you've forced your will on everyone else, and won nothing.

The only realistic solution, at least one where you aren't screwing everyone else in your school while trying to accomplish your own goals, is to eliminate the dress code. Which opens your classmates and yourself to dress how you want, which ( unless abused) would benefit everyone.

This is why I hate some activists and protestors. Minority or not, they are willing to ruin everyone else's day, just to be annoying. Because ( as is this case in this situation) it's not about getting something productive done, it's not about being heard, it's not about being fair. . . It's about winning. . .even if they don't win anything.