Poll: Doctor Who Could Be Better

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Yopaz

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Qtastic said:
JoJo said:
Silvanus said:
Just under 90%, apparently, but you're close.

Shouldn't that mean that if they were being proportionate, which you seem to be suggesting, one should be non-white?
Qtastic said:
Fair enough, but 1/12 is 8%. So if just ONE doctor was not white, then 92% were.
Only if you consider the proportion non-whites living in the UK now. Don't forget the show started back in the Sixties, when the UK was considerably less ethically diverse (and lets be honest, quite a bit more racist). But anyway, if it were down purely to chance using the UK demographics then just 12 Doctors is such a small sample size that it wouldn't be surprising that no non-white Doctors have turned up, that's just the way probability works. Yes it's more likely than not one would be but there's no more 'should' than if you roll a die six times, each number 'should' come up once. In reality, it's usually more messy than that.
Law of large numbers [http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lawoflargenumbers.asp] etc etc. I agree, but I think this is a bit of a red herring. I am not trying to argue that by decree of demographics we should see a non-white Doctor. You are making an in-canon, non-meta appeal as to why the Doctor is always white (i.e. statistics in the world of Doctor Who). While that's fair, I am saying that as artists and creators of the world, it is well within their purview to change the Doctor's race or sex (even gender or orientation).

This would not only serve to present a different perspective, but also allow the writers to make social commentary if they feel so inclined.
Casting isn't a statistics game. It's about finding the right actor for the job so it's pointless to use the argument that at least one should have been black. The fact that the majority of the population are white means that the majority of actors are going to be white too, that doesn't mean that every 11.5th doctor should be black.

OT: Honestly I don't care as long as the actor fits. I haven't watched that far yet, but it's not really an issue. Black or white, why do we need to make a difference? If they turned down someone who fit the job because he was black I would be rather outraged, but as long as that's not the case I don't care.
 

JoJo

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DementedSheep said:
JoJo said:
DementedSheep said:
JoJo said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
While it's a touch nitpicky, the most recent demographics I've seen say 87, which is less than "over 90%."

Don't know why people need to hypberolise a majority.
Just saying, this is a casual discussion of Doctor Who on a gaming website, not a college dissertation paper. A couple of percentage points here and there doesn't change my argument and it certainly wasn't an attempt at hyperbole.

Okay, seriously. I don't give a crap about the Doctor's sex, but how the hell does it actually serve as an important part of his character?
Males and females aren't the same inside or out, you may feel differently but I've always felt that the Doctor is an inherently male character in the way he thinks and acts and in his relationships with others and so I don't think changing his sex would be a good idea.
That a cop out answer. I'm sick of seeing this vague "but men and woman are different" bullshit everytime people don't want a woman to be in a role. It even more stupid here being that his personality changes a bit with each regeneration as well. What specific trait is inherently male about the doctor and unable to be trait of a woman?
Well that's a loaded question you've asked me, since no individual personality trait is the inherent property of one sex. Everything that makes up the Doctor however, from his personality to the way he interacts with others, comes together perfectly as a male character, which he's been for fifty years and there's no good reason to change that now.
So there is no reason why he can't be female. You're just use to him being male.
No reason to change that? well there is no reason not to. If you're really against the character changing it wonder you didn't stop watching the first time his actor did.
Nope, please read my post again. The part I bolded, that's the reason he can't be female in my eyes. Feel free to disagree with me but you won't change my mind, I like my Doctors as male as beards and fighting ;-)
 

DEAD34345

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Absolutely. I'd be far more inclined to watch the program if the main character regenerated into a giant floating space squid or something. Maybe one of those skin-stealing aliens, even, that would be entertaining.

Oh wait, you just mean different ethnicities? Who cares, then? You'd think in a sci-fi star-faring time-travelling multi-universe spanning program like Doctor Who there'd be more important concerns than the colour of the doctor's skin...
 

Wereduck

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Vigormortis said:
canadamus_prime said:
I'd rather have the most qualified actor for the job. If that means another white male Doctor then so be it.
Pretty much my thoughts as well.

The gender or race of the actor playing the Doctor makes no difference to me. I'm more interested in the producers picking an actor or actress that's not only quite talented but one that can bring something interesting to the role. Someone who can inject their own style, personality, and sense of unique charisma into the character. Those are the only qualities that matter to me.

That said, I'm somewhat disappointed they didn't go with someone like Helen Mirren, Naomie Harris, or Ruth Wilson. They would have made for an interesting change-up in the role. That and I think any of them would have been fanta...sorry, I mean brilliant...as the Doctor.
Can't say I'm too fond of Ruth Wilson but I've only seen her in Luther and there are plenty of good actors who don't impress when they're standing next to Idris Elba. Totally on board with Mirren or Harris though. Also, I'm more than a little bummed we won't be seeing Chiwetel Ejiofor as the Doctor - no denying any of them would have kicked copious ass.
 

Vigormortis

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Wereduck said:
Can't say I'm too fond of Ruth Wilson but I've only seen her in Luther and there are plenty of good actors who don't impress when they're standing next to Idris Elba. Totally on board with Mirren or Harris though. Also, I'm more than a little bummed we won't be seeing Chiwetel Ejiofor as the Doctor - no denying any of them would have kicked copious ass.
Hmm...come to think of it, Ejiofor would have made for a great Doctor as well. Would have brought a sense of cunning and determination to the role. On top of the usual comedic undertones, of course.
 

DudeistBelieve

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I've been pushing for a Female Doctor for a long time, and it's not out of any feminist ideal, really. Infact it's more of the opposite: What would be better than The Doctor? A Doctor us dudes could fuck and have it not be gay.

It's the same principal behind Batgirl's creation. It's everything you loved about the character, just sexy. And I'm not saying FemDoc wears something lowcut or the like.

I mean like, keep everything the same about 9,10 and Eleven and swap the gender. Same clothes, same everything. To me, the idea of a woman like that is attractive in it self.
 

blackrave

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Sure, while we're at it lets turn James Bond into Jayne Bond
Also she could be half african, half asian and full-blown lesbian.
That would really improve character, right?
 

Tono Makt

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Can the Doctor be something other than a white male? Yes
Should the Doctor be something other than a white male? Maybe

Sure, the Doctor could be something other than a white male. The question becomes "Why is the Doctor something other than a White Male"? From what we've seen of Gallifrey, White Males are in charge there too, so it's more than just "Britain is 87-91-74-98-104-1.01% White!" (your numbers may vary depending on how much of a nitpicky flame war you want to engage in)
Given what we currently know about the entire situation, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to change the Doctor to something other than a White Male.

This isn't to say that the Doctor should always be a white male, or can never be a non-white male. As a rather appropriate example, see: Dr. Joan Watson. Baby step, true, but still a step toward a more inclusive Sherlock Holmes. Elementary is set in a significantly different setting than traditional Sherlock Holmes stories and so making a radical shift in one character - both gender and ethnicity - which doesn't actually negate the character at all. Still a Doctor, still assisting Holmes, still extremely competent. Just now an asian woman instead of a white man. (And yes, there is a better example to use from this show but the spoiler tags would give it away.)

Can Doctor Who do this? Yes. It might even be able to do it without radically changing the setting, as Elementary did which allowed it to make these kinds of changes. But should Doctor Who do it? I'm not seeing a compelling reason why it should. It's not likely to lose fans like me - newcomers who aren't all that invested in the history of Doctor Who (particularly Doctors 1-8), as long as the show is still entertaining and fun. It might turn off long-time Doctor Who fans who have spent 50 years with a white-male Doctor and don't want to change. It might trigger some unconscious resentment or lack of respect for the new Doctor. (there's a few studies I've seen referenced about how Americans react to different ethnicities in positions of power which indicated that Americans tended to react best to white males being in charge. One of them had to do with looking a pictures of people and told to pick out the people they thought were most powerful; 6 headshots of random men and women and asking the participants to point out the "Police Officer" or "teacher" or "Lawyer" or "Doctor", etc. The higher the position of power, the more often participants would point to a white male in the photo line up. And older white males, I believe, were highest on the list. My Google-fu is weak tonight, though, so I haven't got the reference handy. And yes, it was about Americans, not Canadians or Brits - though I seriously doubt that the difference in this case would be significant.)

Or it might just be that the suits who market the show and the writers who write the show can't be arsed to change; they've got a good thing going as it is, why change it? Why try to change the marketing of Doctor Who to revolve around a Woman and her male Companions? Why write out how Queen Elizabeth would react to her husband (David Tennant) showing up a few days after they get married... as Chiwetel Ejiofor? Could just be laziness on the part of a long established and well loved show. Who knows?

Overall, I'd be quite interested in seeing a non-white, non-male Doctor, or maybe a Transgender Doctor of some kind (Cross dressing doctor, for example) in the future. But I'm not the shows bread and butter; I don't go to conventions dressed as a character from the show, or even buy the DVD's (which are ridiculously expensive, by the way). I'm a pretty casual fan who hasn't invested a great deal of time, so a potentially major change like this wouldn't rock my world.
 

blackrave

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Mcoffey said:
blackrave said:
Sure, while we're at it lets turn James Bond into Jayne Bond
Also she could be half african, half asian and full-blown lesbian.
That would really improve character, right?
Can you give me a good reason how it would hurt the character, besides "He's always been a white dude"?
Because it is pre-existing character
Character that was created and developed with certain traits in mind
Two of those traits are British and male
(please tell me I'm not the only one who feels this in Doctor)
When creating new characters, sure, go nuts (when writing short stories, I personally like to throw a dice to determine certain traits of characters I make up)
But please leave alone already existing characters
I know, I know tempering with certain traits may lead to good results
but when it is working don't try to fix it, ok?
And Doctor is definitely working.
 

mrhappy1489

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I wouldn't mind seeing a minority or female doctor to be honest. I remember hearing all this buzz about Idris Elba and I thought that he'd do a perfect job as the doctor, capturing both the serious and the humorous elements of the character. It doesn't bother me too much, considering I'm very pleased with all of the recent doctors, baring Peter Capaldi since I haven't seen him in the role yet. However I do believe that the next doctor should pull from the more diverse elements of England and take advantage of the amazing crop of actors that they have. OR give it to an Australian, because I'd love to see one of us as the doctor, imagine an Aboriginal Doctor!
 

BloatedGuppy

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As it's a show that perpetually reboots/reimagines the lead, I really don't see the harm in shaking up ethnicity or gender. I don't really care if they don't, either, but if you're constantly recasting the role of an identity swapping alien and he somehow always comes out white and male, people are gonna groan after a while.
 

blackrave

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Mcoffey said:
blackrave said:
Mcoffey said:
blackrave said:
Sure, while we're at it lets turn James Bond into Jayne Bond
Also she could be half african, half asian and full-blown lesbian.
That would really improve character, right?
Can you give me a good reason how it would hurt the character, besides "He's always been a white dude"?
Because it is pre-existing character
Character that was created and developed with certain traits in mind
Two of those traits are British and male
(please tell me I'm not the only one who feels this in Doctor)
When creating new characters, sure, go nuts (when writing short stories, I personally like to throw a dice to determine certain traits of characters I make up)
But please leave alone already existing characters
I know, I know tempering with certain traits may lead to good results
but when it is working don't try to fix it, ok?
And Doctor is definitely working.
So your answer amounts to "Because he's always been that way."

You haven't said how being female or a different race would harm the character.
In my original post I implied that it wouldn't improve it.
Later I stated that there are certain things that are strongly expected from Doctor
1+2=?
 

Thaluikhain

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blackrave said:
In my original post I implied that it wouldn't improve it.
Later I stated that there are certain things that are strongly expected from Doctor
1+2=?
You've not proved what those things are. You only specified British and Male anyway, white doesn't equate to "white".

It's also expected that the doctor wouldn't be a "zany" 12 year old that snogs his female companions, all of whom are the same.
 

LeeArac

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blackrave said:
Sure, while we're at it lets turn James Bond into Jayne Bond
Also she could be half african, half asian and full-blown lesbian.
That would really improve character, right?
A) What exactly is the difference between 'a full-blown lesbian' and just... a lesbian? I'm assuming the former is some kind of hair-cropped, denim-wearing monstrosity from your conservative nightmares?
B) Maybe, but would it really /harm/ the character? Unless you're positing that women are somehow just inherently inferior actors than men, the chances that 'the right actor for the job' just /happened/ to be a man after /4/ Doctors in the new series is seeming less and less likely.
 

blackrave

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Mcoffey said:
So again, because it's "expected" we shouldn't change it? Why not?

James Bond was a Cold War era spy, but we had no problem changing that. The era is as arbitrary as the gender.
This change wouldn't improve the character and it would break expectations and established traits.
In my book combination of that isn't something good.

James Bond worked because after USSR collapsed, there was no cold war anymore.
And without cold war, "cold war era spy" status is broken.
By updating him, broken part was fixed.

What is broken in Doctor?
 

blackrave

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LeeArac said:
A) What exactly is the difference between 'a full-blown lesbian' and just... a lesbian? I'm assuming the former is some kind of hair-cropped, denim-wearing monstrosity from your conservative nightmares?
B) Maybe, but would it really /harm/ the character? Unless you're positing that women are somehow just inherently inferior actors than men, the chances that 'the right actor for the job' just /happened/ to be a man after /4/ Doctors in the new series is seeming less and less likely.
You assume too much
A)I actually just tried to come up that would be direct opposite of heterosexual womanizer. Result wasn't any good, I admit.
B)But change wouldn't improve it either. And changing just for changing's sake will do at least some harm (it usually does)
 

Mick Beard

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I am so sick of all this racism toward white people. so what if the last 12 or so doctors have all been white.

why don't the coloured people just make their own Dr Who show.... they can call it Dr Yo, or Dr Ho
 

blackrave

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Mcoffey said:
blackrave said:
This change wouldn't improve the character and it would break expectations and established traits.
In my book combination of that isn't something good.

James Bond worked because after USSR collapsed, there was no cold war anymore.
And without cold war, "cold war era spy" status is broken.
By updating him, broken part was fixed.

What is broken in Doctor?
The need for a white male in the lead to be marketable and successful. The show would survive without those who couldn't accept it. It would probably even thrive.
And how do you know that making the character female wouldn't improve him if it's never been done before.
O_O
That.
Makes.
No.
Sense.
Like at all.
Show doesn't need a white male lead to be marketable and successful.
Show needs good writing and good production quality to be marketable and successful.
But this show already has character that is established as one
Of course creators can change whatever they want, but should they?
That is the real question here.

Closest comparison I can think of is Motoko Kusanagi from GitS (due to ability to change body)
"She have been Japanese woman for far too long. In next series lets turn her into Ethiopian guy. Why? Because we can!"
I can see how that would improve series (not really)

This logic is the same that people who are ruining developing Mad Max game operate on.
"Details really doesn't matter, what matter is the story itself". Then why not to keep things the same?

P.S. I'm surprised nobody has yet brought "WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE" to this discussion. I'm so proud of you people. Humanity may have a chance.
P.P.S. DAMMIT!!! I did it myself :(
 

UltraPic

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I wanted to vote for the old format of episodes to bring the drama and suspense back to doctor who.
 

blackrave

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Mcoffey said:
The show no longer needs a white male, yes.
The question isn't "Should they?", the question is "Why shouldn't they?"
Motoko was turned into a little girl at the ending of the first movie and briefly during Stand Alone Complex? Would the show truly be so ruined if she did become a man? How would that hurt the series?
[sub][sub][sub]You know it feels like I'm talking to brick wall.[/sub][/sub][/sub]

"Why shouldn't they?"
Because it would be "risk without reason" situation.
There is no real reason to change this, same as there is no reason to stick to it.
Except one- if something works and isn't broken, you don't fix it.
And that is not the worst reason.

How well do you remember movies and series?
At the end of first movie there was no more Motoko, after merging with Puppet Master there was new entity.
During SAC series, she wasn't "turned" into little girl. Those were her (or rather, their) memories about time directly after accident, when she lost her organic body.
At the beginning of third movie, she remotely controls another synthetic body for a while.
But her brain at all time is located in the body we all associate with Kusanagi.
And I'm pretty sure permanently moving her brain into male body, would actually hurt the series and character.
Just re-watch series again if you need proof for that claim.