Poll: Dubstep. Music or not music?

DarthVella

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Yes, I do believe that dubstep is music, and I don't believe that the effort that is put into something is what makes it. Yes, the more effort you put into something the better it is, and is thus more worthy of respect, but it is not what defines art. I've never heard of choir or symphony orchestra members complaining about small bands and single artists because they can make music so easily. Originality and popularity are what makes music, and any other kind of art form. D/S artists may have it easier in the recording and live playing phase, but regardless of genre good musicians pour the same amount of blood, sweat and tears into the composition - actually coming up with a good song.

I have to say that despite my defence of it, there are few dubstep songs currently out there that I really like. The original poster's example in Mike Tompkins' Cinema remix is an absolute gem, but otherwise I can count on one hand the songs in the genre I would listen to again.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Burial, Blackleg, Four Tet et al. are all good examples of classic British two-steps. Skrillex is from another segment of Dubstep, one that's currently popular despite what some aesthetes might think.

I don't think it's right for anyone who's interested in culture to say something along the lines of "This is culture, that's not culture because of facts X, Y, and Z." This largely because these facts are subjective.

Shit, consider Futurism, and the way some of its members were insistent about creating art with nonsensical materials, or music from noise. That's from the early twenties, too! Does it remind you of anything?

From a purely experimental point of view, we've progressed well beyond considering only musical compositions as being music. Otherwise we wouldn't have people like Aphex Twin or Atticus Ross, who usually collaborates with Trent Reznor and tends to use weird, cobbled-up versions of known instruments, rather than actually purchased or designed ones. "Ghosts I-IV" is filled with instances of Ross banging on pots and pans or testing out various surfaces or types of lines or strands, if you used them as chords.

I personally don't like Skrillex and Brostep in general. Does that make it any less of a music genre? Of course not.
 

ScrabbitRabbit

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omega 616 said:
After being quoted many times about my opinion, I can safely say not one of you has changed it.
This isn't an opinion matter. This is not whether nor not you like electronic music (for the record, though I do like some electronic music, I dislike the vast majority of dubstep I've heard), this is you claiming it is not music at all because it is not always performed live or on an instrument. That is not an opinion... that is literally just incorrect. As I said before, music is a creative art.

Besides which, again, as I previously stated, most electronic music IS played on an instrument. Most commonly a keyboard but I've created electronic music using a MIDI guitar and electronic drumkit before.

I attend a music based University and, as you can imagine, there are a lot of electronic artists there. ALL of them play keyboard. Every. Last. One.

Knowing how to use a set of equipment doesn't mean it's music, you don't have to get timing or rhythm down so you can perform it on stage ... you just tweek it till it sounds good.
That goes for basically all recorded music. Half the time when I've recorded bands, they've just played each riff or progression in once then I arrange it for them. Some bands like to record live, but I usually still have to go in after and "tweak it 'til it sounds good."

To a degree, this was even true of tape music. I can't remember which album it was, but Guns 'n' Roses' engineer needed to cut up the drummer's track and fix it manually to get him in time. They aren't the only band either.

Oh, and electronic music existed back then, too! They usually used synthesizers which often had piano keys to make it. Kind of like... now, in fact!

It is in no way like games 'cos you don't get a game, stick it in the console and press play to watch the game play out ... that is a movie.
So movies aren't art? Besides, the argument was that game music was nearly all made on computers. Even the orchestral stuff! A lot of film music is, too. Hans Zimmer uses a lot of sample patches and VSTs for his pieces. Some of his stuff is done with a live orchestra, yes, but not all of it.

I can't remember any other argument but suffice to say, they never changed my mind. Playing music on the PS1 is a shit version of dubstep ... all it takes is a similar taste in genre to the majority, to make "good" dubstep.
That game is nothing like using a real DAW and barely involves any music creation at all. It's largely just arranging pre-made loops and the "riff maker" was so limited as to be completely useless.

Most acclaimed electronic artists don't even like to use pre-made sounds never mind loops. They create their own drums, leads, pads, etc from scratch. And "from scratch" often means from pure white noise... you need a basic understanding of sound on a scientific level to do this

If you can play an instrument (guitar for example) to make dubstep then peachy, I would consider that music. Sat in front a shit load of sliders and a computer screen doesn't make you a musician ... it makes you a programmer.
I'll be sure to tell Jeremy Soule that.
 

lostlevel

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DarthVella said:
Yes, I do believe that dubstep is music, and I don't believe that the effort that is put into something is what makes it. Yes, the more effort you put into something the better it is, and is thus more worthy of respect, but it is not what defines art. I've never heard of choir or symphony orchestra members complaining about small bands and single artists because they can make music so easily. Originality and popularity are what makes music, and any other kind of art form. D/S artists may have it easier in the recording and live playing phase, but regardless of genre good musicians pour the same amount of blood, sweat and tears into the composition - actually coming up with a good song.

I have to say that despite my defence of it, there are few dubstep songs currently out there that I really like. The original poster's example in Mike Tompkins' Cinema remix is an absolute gem, but otherwise I can count on one hand the songs in the genre I would listen to again.
This guy is on to something here, I think we've got to remember that like most music there is always going to be good and bad examples of both.

The Dubstep trend in popular music at them moments seems to be a bit like when all pop artists decided that they needed a edgy rock style. If you don't like dubstep you have ignore it like pop music that you most likely do already, and if you do like it you'll have to tolerate the odd bad DJ/Producer and copycats until something original and new comes along. Hopefully you'll get a bit of time before it too appears in a Justin Bieber song.
 

Deathmageddon

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It's technically music, but GOOD music requires more than a working knowledge of music theory and a laptop.
 

omega 616

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GoaThief said:
I make jokes in an attempt to keep the discussion from turning in a flame war, so sue me!

Go back to my previous post, I said "music was a shitty version" or words to that effect, didn't I?

So much for making jokes to stop insults, shame ...

That is what fashion is! It's how the world works, if you talk about something you use words relating to that point, if you don't nobody knows what you are on about .... When you say fashion victim everybody thinks of a badly dressed person.

I think most telling of all is your posts have strayed from the subject matter to irrelevant things.



Vault101 said:
I don't think I stated I was being objective, isn't that what forums are about? Subjectivity? I'm sorry if you got the wrong idea or I somehow implied that what I was saying was fact but the thread title is asking for opinions and that's what I gave.

"you can't use that as a "reason" to say its subjectively inferior" fixed that for you.

I didn't pick that based on how good it was, I picked that one 'cos it was the first video to illustrate my point. He was confused about what I was talking about so I linked a video, to be honest I never even watched it.


Guitarmasterx7 said:
I don't recall saying anything to the contrary. If I did, I do apologize.

GiantRaven said:
If you say so ...

Tom1351 said:
There was a singer, can't remember her name, who said "there is no new music, it's all just other peoples work rearranged". I mean, aren't there only like 6 letters in music? So there is only a finite number of combinations, correct?

Fishyash said:
I really disagree with the notion of how much skill it takes to do something gives it some merit.

Singing is pretty easy to do. Hell, pretty much anyone who isn't tone deaf or mute can do it. With some practice, and knowing the right people, you could probably sing for a living (would help if you knew another instrument too, something simple like guitar or piano).

In fact, learning to play a piano cover of almost every chart song in the past 5 years is probably easier (although more tedious) than producing a decent electronic music track.
Well, that is your prerogative.

I think you are now giving way too much credit to you preferred genre of music.

ScrabbitRabbit said:
Actually, in my opinion dubstep isn't music. I think that classifies as an opinion, but what the hell do I know? Fuck all according to a lot of people. *insert I don't give a fuck smiley*

Congrats?

Congrats again? I literally have no idea what you want me to say to these claims.

Did you just tell me that stuff recorded in a recording studio is messed with after recording, no matter the genre of music? I think I just found the most obvious fact on the internet.

I have a basic understanding of sound on a scientific level, it's a rusty as a nail in a boardwalk though.

Good luck telling Jeremy Soule that ... whoever he is.

Also, pro tip: using abbreviations is pretty pointless, I don't know what they mean so I have to completely ignore the sentence they are used in. For example: "Hans Zimmer uses a lot of sample patches and VSTs for his pieces." means nothing to me, VST could mean "void stamp tax" for all I know ... even reading wiki left me dumbstruck.
 

mikecoulter

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HorrendusOne said:
So this ISN"t music!?

Why do people do nothing but disappoint me?
I can only say thank you for introducing me to this!

Within one minute I bought the entire album off iTunes, burned a CD and then took my car for a drive in the evening sun to appreciate it.

Funny how music gets around.
 

razer17

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omega 616 said:
Phisi said:
razer17 said:
ScrabbitRabbit said:
Pandalisk said:
After being quoted many times about my opinion, I can safely say not one of you has changed it.

Knowing how to use a set of equipment doesn't mean it's music, you don't have to get timing or rhythm down so you can perform it on stage ... you just tweek it till it sounds good.

It is in no way like games 'cos you don't get a game, stick it in the console and press play to watch the game play out ... that is a movie.

I can't remember any other argument but suffice to say, they never changed my mind. Playing music on the PS1 is a shit version of dubstep ... all it takes is a similar taste in genre to the majority, to make "good" dubstep.

If you can play an instrument (guitar for example) to make dubstep then peachy, I would consider that music. Sat in front a shit load of sliders and a computer screen doesn't make you a musician ... it makes you a programmer.
Firstly by your definition basically any CD isn't music. The amount of mixing and mastering that happens to a recorded piece of music before it's shipped is unbelievable. Unless you get a true live album it will have been mastered by a guy, sat infront of a computer screen, with a bunch of sliders, programming. Not to mention that any band that uses a keyboard, distortion pedal or other kit technically doesn't make "real" music, because hey, it's just programming.

How can you justify saying that one song is music because it's played on guitar, while another isn't just because it was made on a computer using samplers and other equipment? Are you saying that if I played you two dubstep songs, one "real music" the other not, you could figure out which is which? If not, your whole argument is invalid.
 

SFMB

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Pandalisk said:
"Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence"

So yeah its music, question here should be is it good music?
Like farting, you mean? This reminds me of the Southpark episode where Stan gets older and cynical...
 

ScrabbitRabbit

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omega 616 said:
Did you just tell me that stuff recorded in a recording studio is messed with after recording, no matter the genre of music? I think I just found the most obvious fact on the internet.
You know what my point was. Rock music and the like is played into whatever recording device they're using, be it digital or analogue, and then manipulated later to make it sound better. This is pretty much how electronic music is made, too. Drums are programmed more often than not, but the bass lines, lead lines and chords are normally played with a keyboard. How is that so different from any other kind of music?


Good luck telling Jeremy Soule that ... whoever he is.
He's a fairly well known composer, mostly for video games. He's most famous for his work on the Elder Scrolls series.

Also, pro tip: using abbreviations is pretty pointless, I don't know what they mean so I have to completely ignore the sentence they are used in. For example: "Hans Zimmer uses a lot of sample patches and VSTs for his pieces." means nothing to me, VST could mean "void stamp tax" for all I know ... even reading wiki left me dumbstruck.
I won't bother explaining what it is, because I doubt you care, but yeah, my bad. It's easy to forget that not everyone knows this terminology. I often use music theory terms when discussing music, too, which gets a similar reaction.
 

munx13

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Dec 17, 2008
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Yes it is music.

Most of the times really crappy, but still music.
 

GoaThief

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omega 616 said:
I think most telling of all is your posts have strayed from the subject matter to irrelevant things.
That's your trick.

If electronic music isn't actually Music, then your avatar is not a picture either.

There's no two ways about it, both are made using computers.
 

lacktheknack

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w9496 said:
It's just as much music as making fart noises with your hands and armpits.

It could be called music, or it could be called a semi full of keyboards and drums driving off of a cliff for 3-5 minutes.
I question your ability to hear melodies. Are you tone-deaf, perchance?

Be offended by that question all you want, but it's no more offensive than claiming that dubstep isn't music simply because you dislike it.

<youtube=cR2XilcGYOo>

Listen to that. I don't mean sit there going "BLAH I HATE THIS", I mean actually listen to it. There's a strong sense of melody (simple as it is), and the "wubwub" is used to enhance it, not bury it. It's everything music needs to be. If you can't hear it, seriously consider the possibility that you're tone deaf.
 

Redryhno

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Vault101 said:
Redryhno said:
yeah, it's music...technically. Do I consider it ACTUAL music? No, not in a million years. Not if when you tap out random notes on a piano with a consistent tempo and organic beat, and it gets called "playing at playing", and then this stuff comes along and is called "da bestest musiks evars!"(direct quote from a friend). No I won't consider it real music. So technically I don't consider it(most of it, as in 99.9999999% of it, same goes for rap) music.

But then again, I'm an asshole that doesn't know anything about music despite playing three different saxes for about ten years now.(sorry about that, again a quote from a friend, I'm still a bit ticked about it.)
why just say you dont like it..rather than claiming it isnt music? all that does is piss people off and make you sound like one of those music elitists

alsdo rap IS music
I figured that was implied in my post with "technically it is music, but I don't consider it music if *comparison of dubstep to random key hitting on a piano,etc,etc.*", reading between the lines is a priceless skill. In addition, I also said that there's a very little that I can listen to, thank you for your time, and be sure to use Music Elitist Industries for your next opinion call on how we should do business.
 

Fishyash

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omega 616 said:
Well, that is your prerogative.

I think you are now giving way too much credit to you preferred genre of music.
My preferred genre of music?

Oh... what is that?

I actually don't have one. Fortunately, music for me is a case by case basis.

Actually, in my opinion dubstep isn't music. I think that classifies as an opinion, but what the hell do I know? Fuck all according to a lot of people. *insert I don't give a fuck smiley*
By what imaginary definition of music do you go by?

I see the basic definition of music to be pretty clear cut. Anything beyond that becomes "music that I like".
 

Fishyash

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Probably double posting when I say this...
Redryhno said:
yeah, it's music...technically. Do I consider it ACTUAL music? No, not in a million years. Not if when you tap out random notes on a piano with a consistent tempo and organic beat, and it gets called "playing at playing", and then this stuff comes along and is called "da bestest musiks evars!"(direct quote from a friend). No I won't consider it real music. So technically I don't consider it(most of it, as in 99.9999999% of it, same goes for rap) music.

But then again, I'm an asshole that doesn't know anything about music despite playing three different saxes for about ten years now.(sorry about that, again a quote from a friend, I'm still a bit ticked about it.)
Are you saying rhythm alone (rap = vocals with emphasis on rhythm and lyrics) isn't music?

Not music, right?
 

Redryhno

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Fishyash said:
Probably double posting when I say this...
Redryhno said:
yeah, it's music...technically. Do I consider it ACTUAL music? No, not in a million years. Not if when you tap out random notes on a piano with a consistent tempo and organic beat, and it gets called "playing at playing", and then this stuff comes along and is called "da bestest musiks evars!"(direct quote from a friend). No I won't consider it real music. So technically I don't consider it(most of it, as in 99.9999999% of it, same goes for rap) music.

But then again, I'm an asshole that doesn't know anything about music despite playing three different saxes for about ten years now.(sorry about that, again a quote from a friend, I'm still a bit ticked about it.)
Are you saying rhythm alone (rap = vocals with emphasis on rhythm and lyrics) isn't music?

Not music, right?
Before this goes any farther, I'd like to apologize to the OP about this possible derailment into rap vs everything else. Also I see three possible outcomes of this response,none of them good, but what the hell.

Now, to begin, this is not rap. Startling discovery, right? This has no bearing on the conversation at all. It's not rap, and it's not dubstep, so why are you posting it? If you're trying to show the deevolution of sound and evolution of this generation's pain thresholds, then fine. But this is regional, cutural,etc. music.

side note: love your avatar.