Poll: East vs. West: RPGs

[Altorin]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

Dungeon Siege is RPG in name only, it bears much more similarity to the tactical strategy genre than it does the RPG genre.

Edit: How could I forget Planescape Torment...

how do you figure it wasn't an RPG?

you made a character, developed him with experience points gained by killing monsters, played through a story, and collected a myriad of weapons and armor to help you complete the game. I'll agree it was a fairly boring game, and pretty flat, but it was still an RPG.

that's pretty much the cookie cutter of the Western RPG genre.

You can argue gameplay features all you want, but in my eyes, if it has those 4 features, it's an RPG.

 

[Dmatix]

O

Its unfortunate that with the demise of Trokia (Black isle), the only big name stuido making actual RPG Western games is Bioware really, Bethsoft made some pretty awesome RPGs, but Oblivion was a big disapointment.

Oh Black Island, I miss you so...
Since BG2 is probably my favorite game, I went with western.

 

[Pumpkin_Eater]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

None of those games involve any actual roleplaying.

 

[Archaeology Hat]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

Dungeon Siege is RPG in name only, it bears much more similarity to the tactical strategy genre than it does the RPG genre.

Edit: How could I forget Planescape Torment...

how do you figure it wasn't an RPG?

you made a character, developed him with experience points gained by killing monsters, played through a story, and collected a myriad of weapons and armor to help you complete the game. I'll agree it was a fairly boring game, and pretty flat, but it was still an RPG.

that's pretty much the cookie cutter of the Western RPG genre.

You can argue gameplay features all you want, but in my eyes, if it has those 4 features, it's an RPG.

You do the same in X-Com pretty much, a tactical strategy game. It's a tactical strategy game.

 

[veloper]

The east have got Chrono Trigger.

The west have Fallout series, Baldur's Gate2, Planescape, VTM:Bloodlines and Ultima7.

west then.

 

[Altorin]

Its unfortunate that with the demise of Trokia (Black isle), the only big name stuido making actual RPG Western games is Bioware really, Bethsoft made some pretty awesome RPGs, but Oblivion was a big disapointment.

a majority of Black Isle became Obsidian Entertainment, and they still make RPGs. Activision-Blizzard also makes RPGs. Bethesda Softworks does, Lionhead as well.. I can't remember any other developers of Western RPGs off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more.

 

[Cowabungaa]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

None of those games involve any actual roleplaying.

Roleplaying is up to you, they do all involve character development.

 

[Altorin]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

Dungeon Siege is RPG in name only, it bears much more similarity to the tactical strategy genre than it does the RPG genre.

Edit: How could I forget Planescape Torment...

how do you figure it wasn't an RPG?

you made a character, developed him with experience points gained by killing monsters, played through a story, and collected a myriad of weapons and armor to help you complete the game. I'll agree it was a fairly boring game, and pretty flat, but it was still an RPG.

that's pretty much the cookie cutter of the Western RPG genre.

You can argue gameplay features all you want, but in my eyes, if it has those 4 features, it's an RPG.

You do the same in X-Com pretty much, a tactical strategy game. It's a tactical strategy game.

I could argue this with you all day I think, and I'm getting tired, so I'm going to concede. I don't really think you're necessarily right in writing a game off the RPG genre just because of gameplay.. RPG isn't so much about gameplay as much as it's an archetype for developing a protagonist.. RPGs are played in all sorts of ways..

anyway, I'm done arguing it

 

[Archaeology Hat]

Its unfortunate that with the demise of Trokia (Black isle), the only big name stuido making actual RPG Western games is Bioware really, Bethsoft made some pretty awesome RPGs, but Oblivion was a big disapointment.

a majority of Black Isle became Obsidian Entertainment, and they still make RPGs. Activision-Blizzard also makes RPGs. Bethesda Softworks does, Lionhead as well.. I can't remember any other developers of Western RPGs off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more.

I was under the impression that the operative and important parts of Black Isle became Trokia entertainment, which went bust a few years back, I'll concede that Obsidion makes some, relatively good games (NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer... how did they company that made NWN2 make such a good game. Lionhead doesn't really develop Western RPGs it develops Western Morality games, of which 2 are technically RPGs and 2 are God-Games. Activision-Blizzard makes WoW and Diabolo, Diabolo has always been the slightly thick cousin that people keep around because he's a good laugh from time to time of the Western RPG genre. WoW isn't an RPG, its an MMORPG, the 3 first letters of the acronym are suprisingly important, the genre has diverged greatly from its CRPG roots.

 

[Altorin]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

None of those games involve any actual roleplaying.

Gah, this thread will be the death of me. All of them can involve some social investment in your character.. There is LOTS of roleplaying in WoW, and everyone who plays it for any extended period of time becomes their character eventually.. It's an odd effect, but it's true.. I'm Volent, I'm a paladin, I'm a guild leader of a guild, etc.

Fable has so much customization built into it, and so many little things that can ONLY exist for the sake of roleplaying. In Fable 2, you can give every character a nickname.. in both the fables you can give your character any sort of appearance you want to, and play the character out however you want. When you're playing Fable, and you slaughter everyone in Oakvale, it's not just the character that's doing it, you are doing it. If you're playing Fable 2 and you do ANYTHING other then searching for buried shit with your dog, then you're roleplaying - as a gameplay feature, that dog is bloody useless.

Dungeon Siege.. maybe there's not much roleplaying there.. but take a look at a granddaddy of roleplaying games.. Eye of the Beholder, based directly on Dungeons and Dragons.. Is there any more "roleplaying" in Eye of the Beholder? not really.

Too tired for this shit, I'm going to bed, lol

 

[ShadowPen]

I generally go for storyline.

So JRPGs.

Western RPGs go more for gameplay, and an open world. Not that these are bad things, but the end result is the story is generally weak.

JRPGs are linear, but they are looooong and ultimately fulfilling.

Baldur's Gate...
Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick obscura.
Fallout 1+2.

If you haven't played the Baldur's Gate saga through from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal you know nothing of Western RPG stories.

I didn't think the Fallout games were very long.
Baldur's Gate is more the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Archaeology Hat]

I generally go for storyline.

So JRPGs.

Western RPGs go more for gameplay, and an open world. Not that these are bad things, but the end result is the story is generally weak.

JRPGs are linear, but they are looooong and ultimately fulfilling.

Baldur's Gate...
Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick obscura.
Fallout 1+2.

If you haven't played the Baldur's Gate saga through from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal you know nothing of Western RPG stories.

I didn't think the Fallout games were very long.
Baldur's Gate is more the exception that proves the rule.

So you judge a game purely on length? Purely on the number of hours involved in completeing it...? fair enough.

 

[Reaperman Wompa]

I guess it's just because I can see myself more in them, so I like RPG's more. The lore or the basic story is something I have grown up with and the way everything goes is the way I want it to, so I just feel more comfortable in them. Also, intrigue differs for each, for instance the majority JRPG's I have played have eventually bored the crap out of me, the story either being too dull or simply lacking in any redeeming qualities. I assume it must be the same for people in Asian countries who look at RPG's, the characters must seem just a bit off for them.

Though that's not to say that the occasional JRPG doesn't surprise me, I have seen a few that I liked.

 

[ShadowPen]

I generally go for storyline.

So JRPGs.

Western RPGs go more for gameplay, and an open world. Not that these are bad things, but the end result is the story is generally weak.

JRPGs are linear, but they are looooong and ultimately fulfilling.

Baldur's Gate...
Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick obscura.
Fallout 1+2.

If you haven't played the Baldur's Gate saga through from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal you know nothing of Western RPG stories.

I didn't think the Fallout games were very long.
Baldur's Gate is more the exception that proves the rule.

So you judge a game purely on length? Purely on the number of hours involved in completeing it...? fair enough.

Even if a game is good, if I can beat it in a short amount of time, it loses the all important immersion. Even more so if the fun of the game comes from slaughtering the civilians, and then, inevitably, the law enforcement (Elder Scrolls). If a game is longer, I can enjoy it longer, without having to 'relive' the game and its experience just to obtain the 'bad guy ending.'

Chrono Trigger is, in comparison to other JRPGs, a short game. But it has multiple endings, each of which are drastically different (although one of them has many variations) and the characters are well developed, and you genuinely learn to care about them. More so, the time travel plot of the game makes replaying it answer some questions about the plot, so more than one playthrough is, for lack of a better word, enjoyable.

So no, games aren't good or bad just on length.

 

[Ushario]

I go for Western RPG's.

I find them more immersive, and while the storylines of JRPG's can be very good, they can also be terribly generic. The problem as others have stated is that sometimes due to their open world nature, some Western RPG's end up feeling watered down.

However, having played some of Baldur's gate, thats what I like in an RPG. I've just never had the patience for any number crunching, or D&D rules.

 

[IsoNeko]

Turn-Based-RPG's

I never understood them. Take it turns, battle of the stats.

Seriously, it's battling with Math. HOW IS THAT FUN?

 

[Pumpkin_Eater]

Roleplaying is up to you, they do all involve character development.

They all involve leveling up but making your dude stronger does not constitute character development. Otherwise you could argue that everything from Devil May Cry to Team Fortress 2 is an RPG because of the new weapons and abilities that you unlock.

 

[Archaeology Hat]

Even if a game is good, if I can beat it in a short amount of time, it loses the all important immersion. Even more so if the fun of the game comes from slaughtering the civilians, and then, inevitably, the law enforcement (Elder Scrolls). If a game is longer, I can enjoy it longer, without having to 'relive' the game and its experience just to obtain the 'bad guy ending.'

Chrono Trigger is, in comparison to other JRPGs, a short game. But it has multiple endings, each of which are drastically different (although one of them has many variations) and the characters are well developed, and you genuinely learn to care about them. More so, the time travel plot of the game makes replaying it answer some questions about the plot, so more than one playthrough is, for lack of a better word, enjoyable.

So no, games aren't good or bad just on length.

Fallout 1+2 have multiple endings, some of them are quite radically differant. As does Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura... the list goes on. Western RPGs are not represented by the plotless wonders of recent years (mass effect and Mask of the Betrayer excluded). That's like me saying "all Shooters are Halo", it is just not true.

Edit: And Pumpkin_Eater has hit the nail on the Head. "RPG elements" do not "Roleplaying" make.

 

[Abedeus]

WoW is an MMORPG
Fable is an Action RPG
Dungeon Siege is a Hack and Slash RPG

You can split hairs all you want, but don't expect everyone else to.

None of those games involve any actual roleplaying.

Roleplaying is up to you, they do all involve character development.

Wait, so Crysis has weapon modifications. Does this mean it's an RPG?

In GTA: San Andreas, you can train your character. Does this make it an RPG?

In a driving game, you can upgrade your cars. Does this mean every driving game is an RPG?

NO!

Roleplaying is up to you, they do all involve character development.

They all involve leveling up but making your dude stronger does not constitute character development. Otherwise you could argue that everything from Devil May Cry to Team Fortress 2 is an RPG because of the new weapons and abilities that you unlock.

Exactly. Any game where a character gets stronger as you play could be treated as an RPG. Doesn't make it so.

Putting a collar on your neck doesn't make you a priest, wearing a dress doesn't turn you into a girl.

 

[ShadowPen]

Fallout 1+2 have multiple endings, some of them are quite radically differant. As does Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura... the list goes on. Western RPGs are not represented by the plotless wonders of recent years (mass effect and Mask of the Betrayer excluded). That's like me saying "all Shooters are Halo", it is just not true.

Edit: And Pumpkin_Eater has hit the nail on the Head. "RPG elements" do not "Roleplaying" make.

I wasn't wowed by Daggerfall either. I felt it had all the same problems.

Really, the only western RPG I ever liked was Betrayal at Krondor. Amazing story, and characters you care about. Though, it also helps that its based in Midkemia, made famous by the Feist books, of which I am a fan.

I've never played (or even heard of) Arcanum or Magick Obscura, so I'm not saying anything about them...

And unfortunately, all modern FPSs ARE trying to be like Halo. Which is a crying shame, because Bioshock should probably be the bar for that particular genre >_>