Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

TessN

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V4Viewtiful said:
Oh yeah, that's true. too bad there are hoops that need to be jumped. And you know what. I'm not even asking or men to have the right to abort (lets be honest no man should have that right) but once the child is born, it belongs to both parties. And at that point there should bbe no tipping of the scales
1. You realize that kids are not merely personal property or bundles of support cash but enormous, time-consuming responsibilities, yes?

2. I agree with a couple of caveats: first, there may be medical/health reasons to prefer the gestational parent to allow a newborn to breastfeed. Second: later on, the bias should not be toward either gender, but toward *the primary caregiver.* It is nearly always the case that one parent is primarily responsible for taking kids to events, staying home from work when kids are sick, etc. The other parent may help as well, but it's very rare that the distribution of effort is 50/50. Whoever the primary caregiver is, regardless of that parent's gender, should be the default custodial parent.
 

Tsun Tzu

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First of all, I don't appreciate this poll's options. You cannot mention "mammoth penis" in one of the choices without horribly skewing the result.

...I...I had no choice. I had to pick it. Otherwise it's like admitting that I don't, in fact, have a mammoth penis. Which I totally do.

I had no choice!
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
It depends on the issue really.

Men generally are expected to be the stronger sex, but thats because we are. Not saying we don't have feelings, but we won't get anywhere as a society if we all go around being big blubbery messes because Phil wore the same shirt to the office today.

Yes, men need support for stuff like suicide, domestic abuse, rape. We also need our rights as a part of raising a child recognized.

My girlfriend is a feminist, but recognizes the need for gender roles, because if shes having a bad day, if I let her mood ruinine we'd just ***** and moan at each other and then the dogs wouldn't get walked. And if the dogs don't get walked then they shit and piss all over the house, then we're in a bad mood and there's shit and piss all over everything.

And that is an apt metaphore for the whole situation. Someone has to suck it up and get on with things, or it'll all get covered in shit. And piss.
Second, this post reminded of this speech -


Which, I'll be honest, I put more stock into than Emma's...which I've totally listened to. I have. No, really. I have.

I have something to do right now and it's not what you think. It- It's porn. I swear.
 

Excelsior789

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Personally? No, not really. That's just because I can't be bothered with it to be honest though. I can understand people responding "yes" as well since such stereotypes are archaic and don't really have a place in modern culture beyond simple novelty.
 

Maphysto

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wetnap said:
She is part of the most privileged class in the world, white western wealthy attractive female. And she has the temerity to whine about supposed sexism in britain? It was laughable. She has more rights than men even, she gets to decide if a man becomes a father even against his consent, she can kill the child or force him to be a father, she has more right than a man. And that's just a start.
welp a rich white chick talked about sexism guess we should ignore every point she made on principle rather than examine their merits
 

Spearmaster

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Not at all.

Are Feminist really asking Men for help so they can re-write the gender roles to suit women and then try to convince us its a prize for Men because Feminist know whats better for Men? Really?
 

Namehere

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I haven't had a conventional life by most standards and so don't have a conventional view of life. With that said, I suppose gender rolls matter. I just don't view myself in that way. I can see how others might feel trapped or restricted by them. I don't personally feel that way, but as I said I'm hardly a baseline people should be measured against.

HeForShe actually seems interesting - as such campaigns go. Certainly a lot more forward and reaching then others of this type I've seen out there. I'm all for it in theory, we'll have to see what practice brings to bare in the near future.
 

CFriis87

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Zachary Amaranth said:
CFriis87 said:
There are a number of reasons the MRM as it is now is firmly against feminism, most of which you can rea, along with sources, in this post of mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861411-Poll-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality?page=7#21443114
I do admire the depth of the cherry picking there.
How many more examples do you need before it stops being cherry picking and turns into a full blown harvest? 5? 10? 20?
These are all really big problems with the feminist movement that prove it's not about equality, but about whatever the feminists with the most political power wants it to be about.
 

CFriis87

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LifeCharacter said:
Women also need to take responsibility for their sexual activity, and they do, because it's impossible for them not to. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for their sexual activity. Giving birth and raising the child is taking responsibility. Giving birth and giving up the child to someone else is taking responsibility. If the father wants to take the child, the woman paying child support is taking responsibility.
No, all you're doing is saying that no matter what choice the mother takes, it means she's taking responsibility. Hell you might as well add "If she throws it in a dumpster, she's taking responsibility." to that list of yours.
If she gives the child away via either adoption or safe haven laws, she's not taking responsibility, she's giving it away.
If she has an abortion, she's not taking responsibility, she's eliminating it.
If she chooses to have the baby, she shares the responsibility with whoever she names as father, the state will see to that.
The difference is that women get the choice, men don't.
And you saying that men can just choose to not have sex is exactly the same disgusting argument that you hear from super-conservative pro-lifers.
 

CFriis87

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Relish in Chaos said:
renegade7 said:
Male genital mutilation remains acceptable, in fact in some cases even desirable, in the US. Some traditional subcultures in the US even go so far as to perform the mutilation by BITING the foreskin off.
Well...male genital mutilation (or circumcision) is quite the male equivalent to female genital mutilation. With female circumcision, it literally fucks the girl's vagina for life, to the point that it hurts even being sexually penetrated (that's part of the point, for some sadistic reason). With men, while some would argue nerve endings are severed and the foreskin is a fairly important part of the penis, it's got a much lower chance of being botched or having long-term problems, and you can still get a good amount of girth and pleasure during sex. With women, it's a 100% failure, because female circumcision doesn't make the vagina any cleaner, any more religiously pure, or anything.

Although, yeah, biting off a boy?s foreskin is?well, that?s just fucking crazy.
You are incorrect, or at the very least your knowledge on the topic is wholly inadequate.
There are FOUR different overall types of female circumcision, whereof THREE types are milder or similar in damage to male circumcision.

Procedures

Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types.

1. Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
2. Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
3. Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, or outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
4. Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.

The female circumcision type you speak of is Infibulation and are mistakenly assuming that this is what all female circumcision is and thus comparing male circumcision to only that.
Worse yet, you're using this false equivalence non-argument to defend genital mutilation of men.
Please stop doing that immediately.
 

apollogon

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Blimey there sure aren't many real problems left in the world anymore, huh?

"No because as male masculinity does not literally equate to machismo or masculine pride. Nor do those that exhibit masculinity are held back by its definition to be good people."

Yep

How on earth does Emma Watson KNOW she understands what men feel? To say that she knows men aren't perpetuating masculinity because it's normal part of our biology. But against our self interest since we really are actually secretly so emotional and womanly. No Emma, you're a rich insulated misinformed & obnoxious ideologue who's had a few guys tell you nonsense to get in your pants. The United Nations is such a joke.
 

Erttheking

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Kalezian said:
I love it how feminists who hate men now say that men need to help them with gender issues.

fucking hypocrites.

Honey Badger Radio's recent episode had a section over Emma Watsons plea that the strong men need to help the weak women with their gender issues.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic, this is how that entire speech came off to me as. Feminism in it's initial version was the celebration of women and treating them with equal rights when there was none.

Now the idiots have come out of the woodwork and believe big poppa patriarchy is behind everything and that a matriarchy will fix everything, not to mention the #killallmen bullshit they spew.
*Sigh* Look, that isn't what it's about at all. I would love to talk about it with you, but I'm feeling extremely burned out right now, so I only want to talk if we can both agree to keep this civil. Agreed?
 

Mikeybb

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Dependent on the situation.

I've known people it has affected worse.

One example, without naming names of course, was a fellow student who wanted to become a primary school teacher.
Younger children.
He received questioning looks every time he answered that when asked 'what subject'.
The assumption being he was going to teach a defined subject at high school level, a more specialized role with a perceived focus on education rather than care, which is often associated with primary school teachers.
The truth is, Primary school teaching is as challenging a job as other levels of teaching, just with different requirements.

Some of the questioning was why a man would want to care for children.
Some was towards his capacity to care for children.
...and the worst were even suspicious of his motivations, if you understand the unsaid implication there.

So yes, I do believe that masculinity expectations can be binding for some.

It did not halt his efforts and, when I last saw him, he was well on the way to completing his training and moving on to actual qualification.

...but it did make the journey a little more uncomfortable and unwelcoming.

That's why I answered 'maybe', because while I don't think gender expectations will stop anyone with sufficient will and aptitude, there's a degree of stigma or attention received surrounding people breaking these roles that, frankly, is undeserved.
 

Something Amyss

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CFriis87 said:
How many more examples do you need before it stops being cherry picking and turns into a full blown harvest? 5? 10? 20?
20 out of a movement of how many? I can find 20 men who are rapists, should I expound that into a philosophy that I'm anti-male because men are rapists, or does it suddenly become silly when I choose a target that's not feminism?
 

Tomwa

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She perfectly ignored all actual men's issues (Especially here in the US):

1. The fact that women receive less prison time for equally severe crimes.
2. The fact that we STILL don't have shared parenting by default.
3. The crazy and unfair alimony that is constantly being ripped from men.
4. The fact that men are constantly being robbed for children they never even get to see.
5. The fact that male victims of domestic violence and female->male sexual abuse are constantly ignored.
6. The fact that in the U.S. 80% of suicides are men and boys (And the majority pattern holds for other places as well).
7. The fact that feminism is pushing garbage anti-male, anti-justice measures here forcing congress to reduce the burden of proof in sexual assault cases on campus, and completely trampling the presumption of innocence.
8. Misandry towards men in the media in the form of the "Stupid man-pig husband",
9. The fact that infant circumcision of men is routinely performed, irreparably harming a man's genitals without his consent and with the potential loss of the penis in rare cases.

Emma Watson is a feminist, feminists don't care about men, they don't even care about women. They only care about themselves and when they started to realize that feminism is failing they called out to the men to help them. Less than 23% percent of women and 16% of men are feminists, I hope that by 2020 that is 0% on both sides.

Masculinity is not an issue the constant attack against it though very much is.
 

Something Amyss

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Tomwa said:
6. The fact that in the U.S. 80% of suicides are men and boys (And the majority pattern holds for other places as well).
And yet, weirdly enough, women are more likely to attempt suicide. Hey, let's ignore that, though.

7. The fact that feminism is pushing garbage anti-male, anti-justice measures here forcing congress to reduce the burden of proof in sexual assault cases on campus, and completely trampling the presumption of innocence.
Not so much a fact as it is a convenient accusation. There's no specific evidence that this has led to an increase in false reports or convictions, and in fact an MRA group broke the system trying to protest something that wasn't broken in one instance. More a conspiracy theory than a fact.

8. Misandry towards men in the media in the form of the "Stupid man-pig husband",
If that's the standard, then TV is misogynist as well. Do you accept this?

9. The fact that infant circumcision of men is routinely performed, irreparably harming a man's genitals without his consent and with the potential loss of the penis in rare cases.
Who's ignoring this again? Because the only time I particularly even see this rebuked is when it's compared to FGM.

feminists don't care about men, they don't even care about women.
And now you're just talking nonsense.
 

Spacemonkey430

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Well this thread much too far along for this to be meaningful put what harm is throwing yourself against a brick wall?

What I don't get is why all these feminists who supposedly are out to champion the cause of "equality" which is "supposed" to apply to everyone, don't take up the position of egalitarian. The beauty of it is unlike feminism doesn't confine itself to women. You're out to give everybody a fair shake. Men, women, and everybody else who identifies as anything else. The problem is that it would require the people who are active in it to be genuine about it. No more "empowering" one group by putting down another. No more being selfish, having your cake and eating it too. You can stick up for women's rights, the societal expectations placed on men, freedom for trans people to identify and live their lives however they choose.

Feminism needs to die. It's a relic of the last century that has outlived its purpose and become perverted into something that betrays what it used to stand for. I am really grateful, as a man, for what it has accomplished in the past. I think we live in a better world because of it. But its time to move on. Its time to give everyone a fair shake. No more camps, our group vs their group, or shit slinging. Equality for EVERYONE to live the way they choose.
 

Skatologist

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Okay before I go through with any of this, I have to get this off my chest "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!" And with that out of the way, let's continue.
Tomwa said:
She perfectly ignored all actual men's issues (Especially here in the US):

1. The fact that women receive less prison time for equally severe crimes.
Problem? Yes. Problem I have seen a lot of feminists bring up and support changing for the better? Yes.
2. The fact that we STILL don't have shared parenting by default.
I'd like to see your evidence and would also like to see how big this problem actually is, I'm guessing it could be default for many states/countries.
3. The crazy and unfair alimony that is constantly being ripped from men.
Fun fact, women typical pay more in % income for children then men do. I'm a bit hazy on the specifics, but it's basically a huge difference in % income.
4. The fact that men are constantly being robbed for children they never even get to see.
The fact that rapists have the same legal rights as any other father in many US states.
5. The fact that male victims of domestic violence and female->male sexual abuse are constantly ignored.
See answer to #1. Also, not even feminists bring this up, but spousal and dating murders are disproportionate amongst women in comparison to men.
6. The fact that in the U.S. 80% of suicides are men and boys (And the majority pattern holds for other places as well).
See #1 and remember that if men weren't pressured into being so "macho" they could actually talk about their problems and, in all likelihood, reduce their suicide attempts and successes.
7. The fact that feminism is pushing garbage anti-male, anti-justice measures here forcing congress to reduce the burden of proof in sexual assault cases on campus, and completely trampling the presumption of innocence.
I want information and specific persons, if you are talking about "feminism" and not just most, some, or a group of feminists, your statement is disingenuous.
8. Misandry towards men in the media in the form of the "Stupid man-pig husband"
9. The fact that infant circumcision of men is routinely performed, irreparably harming a man's genitals without his consent and with the potential loss of the penis in rare cases.
Uhh..see #1? Seriously, I'm sure you'll find them and if your not, this site is a pretty good start to ask.
Emma Watson is a feminist, feminists don't care about men, they don't even care about women. They only care about themselves and when they started to realize that feminism is failing they called out to the men to help them. Less than 23% percent of women and 16% of men are feminists, I hope that by 2020 that is 0% on both sides.

Masculinity is not an issue the constant attack against it though very much is.
1st sentence, true. Second sentence, untrue of all feminism.[footnote] It is easily possible some feminists might be like this, I am in no position to say all of them are angels. [/footnote] Third sentence is basically untrue, women don't have to change anymore than they have, but men and masculinity do, in many ways. Also, look up statistics on whether or not the typical American views that the genders are equal in this country and if they want that improved, as far as i am concerned, those people who do are both a majority and are also the dreaded f-word. Last point, yes, I hope by 2020 there are 0 % feminists in the US, because it would be so promising within a 6 year time frame to reach true gender equality and therefore not need or desire feminism anymore.