With which part of the speech are people taking issue with, it seems pretty moderate to me?Bat Vader said:
Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality
- Thread starter BloatedGuppy
- Start date
Well it's not exactly new-news but it's something that needs to be said more loudly and more often.
Not in a way that diminishes the issues faced by women in societies all around the world - but in a way that acknowledges the other side of the coin. That so many men are disenfranchised, disillusioned and fragile and *different* to that stereotyped (i would say bullshit) "ideal". Sometimes in ways that are different than women and sometimes the same but - taken as a whole - all extremely relevant to societal and cultural progress.
Not that of course I expect anything to change in my lifetime really. There are far too many vested interests, sticky fingers in stickier pies, corruption, societal intimidation, learned behaviors etc for anything to happen that fast.
But maybe when my children or their children are grown.
Who knows. I hope for the day though.
Not in a way that diminishes the issues faced by women in societies all around the world - but in a way that acknowledges the other side of the coin. That so many men are disenfranchised, disillusioned and fragile and *different* to that stereotyped (i would say bullshit) "ideal". Sometimes in ways that are different than women and sometimes the same but - taken as a whole - all extremely relevant to societal and cultural progress.
Not that of course I expect anything to change in my lifetime really. There are far too many vested interests, sticky fingers in stickier pies, corruption, societal intimidation, learned behaviors etc for anything to happen that fast.
But maybe when my children or their children are grown.
Who knows. I hope for the day though.
Yeah, as a tall, strong, straight white male I do go against gender expectations because I'm more comfortable in the parenting role and my wife is more comfortable as a breadwinner. Fortunately I have never given half a crap about my expected societal role so while I don't doubt that we get judged sometimes (in fact, I know for sure that we do) it washes off my back, and I can help my wife deal with it if it gets to her.
EDIT: Emma Watson is getting threatened for saying that? Man I hate the internet.
EDIT: Emma Watson is getting threatened for saying that? Man I hate the internet.
Yeah there are many many minor examples of this, examples that you can say "it doesn't matter to me".
It's far to easy to say we're in a society where we are regarded as equal, but in fact inequality is all around us. Because you may not see it doesn't mean it's not there.
Example: Despite an estimated 15% of men likely to suffer from sexual abuse, and 10% of men likely to suffer from domestic ( physical) abuse, services are primarily geared towards women, excluding men. This leaves no support and no care for the vast majority of these men. Yes it's right that these services should be geared to women, but there should also be services that exist, are available, and are publicly known about for men.
It's far to easy to say we're in a society where we are regarded as equal, but in fact inequality is all around us. Because you may not see it doesn't mean it's not there.
Example: Despite an estimated 15% of men likely to suffer from sexual abuse, and 10% of men likely to suffer from domestic ( physical) abuse, services are primarily geared towards women, excluding men. This leaves no support and no care for the vast majority of these men. Yes it's right that these services should be geared to women, but there should also be services that exist, are available, and are publicly known about for men.
I find myself empowered by traditional views of masculinity, not confined. Civilization as we know it has only come this far due to expectations being placed on men and women, which in turn traces it's roots back to biology.
However I can sympathize with males who find the traditional masculinity confining for them. Not everyone can contain their emotions, not everyone has the strength to not show their vulnerabilities, not everyone has the strength to overcome their issues alone. I believe they should feel free to be open about those things and society should not hesitate to help them.
But yeah, I personally find the expectations of traditional masculinity to be quite the opposite of confining.
However I can sympathize with males who find the traditional masculinity confining for them. Not everyone can contain their emotions, not everyone has the strength to not show their vulnerabilities, not everyone has the strength to overcome their issues alone. I believe they should feel free to be open about those things and society should not hesitate to help them.
But yeah, I personally find the expectations of traditional masculinity to be quite the opposite of confining.
If you've been on this forum for the last few weeks, you'd know this actually becoming a terrible place to post these things.
Anyway...
I clicked no, but allow me to throw some context on that answer. I agree with what she's saying, I just don't personally have to struggle with it. I'm an attentive father, and I feel like I personally can emote to my heart's extent. My daughter is headstrong and independent, my wife works hard and is educated, and my boys are free to express themselves how they want - one loves the colour pink and his toy kitchen, and that's cool. The other likes sports and videogames, and that is also cool. Neither judge each other or mock each other for their preferences. Yeah, life's pretty sweet, and we're quite a wealthy family. We are not restrained by outdated gender values.
However, we're a minority family. We live in the UK which is more progressive than the US and Australia on these things, but is still lagging behind other Northern European countries. I think we'd have a happier society if people could get over these stereotypes, but it's all linked - recession and economic uncertainty lead to more socially conservative attitudes among the affected. You can't just tell a family that's struggling to put food on the table that the man should cry more and the woman should get stronger. You can't tell a man who was kicked out because he couldn't provide for his family that he should be backing a more loving role of fathers in the household. You can't do these things while legally men can be discriminated against more than women in regards to families and children.
Anyway...
I clicked no, but allow me to throw some context on that answer. I agree with what she's saying, I just don't personally have to struggle with it. I'm an attentive father, and I feel like I personally can emote to my heart's extent. My daughter is headstrong and independent, my wife works hard and is educated, and my boys are free to express themselves how they want - one loves the colour pink and his toy kitchen, and that's cool. The other likes sports and videogames, and that is also cool. Neither judge each other or mock each other for their preferences. Yeah, life's pretty sweet, and we're quite a wealthy family. We are not restrained by outdated gender values.
However, we're a minority family. We live in the UK which is more progressive than the US and Australia on these things, but is still lagging behind other Northern European countries. I think we'd have a happier society if people could get over these stereotypes, but it's all linked - recession and economic uncertainty lead to more socially conservative attitudes among the affected. You can't just tell a family that's struggling to put food on the table that the man should cry more and the woman should get stronger. You can't tell a man who was kicked out because he couldn't provide for his family that he should be backing a more loving role of fathers in the household. You can't do these things while legally men can be discriminated against more than women in regards to families and children.
Hey guess what?!?! [img/]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/203/574/ItsaFake.jpg[/img]Bat Vader said:
turns out it was all a ploy by marketing agency to frame 4chan now theyre petitioning Obama to censor the internet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/24/emma-watson-nude-photos-hoax-rantic_n_5871730.html
Saying "there's a problem here" is not constructive? How do you expect society to change, become more open and accepting if these problems are not raised?Nimcha said:
I'll admit that there are certain ways and methods to voice social issues but to not voice them at all means nothing will change to affect them.
Cause and effect - the most universal law of everything. Besides 42 of course.
Well...I wouldn't say "worse". It will lead to problems, as people ate going after the symptoms, not the cause, but it's still an improvement.Kameburger said:
Yes and no.Kameburger said:
Yes, in that the underlying causes are very important, and need to be addressed.
No, because before we get to the cause of the problem, we need to be aware that the problem exists. In this case, "raising awareness" is actually useful. Many people aren't seeing the problem...the massive amount of denials of sexism/rape threats shows that.
What's behind everything is very controversial and complicated. Maybe Sarkeesian doesn't know what the underlying auses are, she'd hardly be alone in that. Maybe she has ideas, but wanted to get people on board with acknowledging the obvious before going to the most obscure and controversial stuff.
A big part of feminism is arguing with other feminists about that sort of thing. Mostly over intersectionality issues. IMHO, that's one of the most important concepts to grasp, and so many people struggle with that.
...Gestapo Hunter said:
"Let's threaten Emma Watson, that'll give us the moral high ground."
While I understand your point, you took me out of context, and I gave a clear example. There is a difference between standing up and saying "look here is an issue" thats not well known or acknowledged and has real world effects, and looking for an issue for the sake of a fight. Personally I'd much rather have to deal with a few "far left wing hand wringer"s for the sake of raising awareness of real issues.Res Plus said: