Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

[cikame]

It's nice to hear about equality for men for a change.

My personality is of the weaker male, i like video games and intelligent things, i try to speak properly and be quiet instead of being loud and aggressive, i have a bad job and live alone.
I haven't noticed any sort of advantage in being this way, i've watched horrible bullies from my childhood buying flashy cars and marrying beautiful women, friends of mine don't stay in contact as they've moved on to new upper class social circles.
I'm not competitive in the slightest, i let people win to make them happy, my last two relationships ended specifically because i was "too nice".

But enough about me, there are plenty of men out there with their own issues, parents who have split up and the father doesn't get to see his children because our society always leans on the side of the mother.

 

[Grahav]

You know what, while I understand, and fight this point on a far too regular basis, and get my licks for it from some who would call themselves 'feminists'.
We have to stand up and be better.
Just because men suffer from violence does not mean there isn't a problem with violence against women, and vice versa. This is a deeply emotive thing, and who wouldn't be emotional if you/your friend/sister/mother/daughter had been raped/abused. Wouldn't you rabidly stand up and shout and scream and do everything you could to ensure it stopped happening?

If fact, the chances are if you know 3 women you know someone who's been raped or sexually assaulted shouldn't we be fighting that?
Yes there is a narrative that is damaging ( men bad, women victim) especially when you consider that 15% of men have survived/will survive abuse as well, what we need is a better narrative, not to fight those people fighting the good fight.

Stand up and shout this happens to men too, try and talk calmly to those using that narrative and say "look you're hurting these people". Talk about how the "abused becomes abuser" trope is propagated too often ( this isn't propagated per-se it's "abuser was abused" , but that only has one end, it's reverse trope), talk about how male survivors suffer in silence, often never telling anyone ( anyone, at all, ever ), with no help resources or support.

And yes, as with everything on the internet, there are those who 'get their hate on' ( on both sides), they are trolls, ignore them, move on and discourse with others with more moderate view, don't dismiss those who would listen, engage with them.

Agree with almost everything.

I have just doubts about the 1 in 3 and the 15% statisc. Simply because there are a lot of research in this area with conflicting results, bias and interest attached. I don't know what the hell is the real number anymore.

Also about: "who wouldn't be emotional". Carefull, because emotion is a good tool to manipulate well-intentioned people. Politicians are great at it. Also in the other side the lack of an emotional response to man's suffering piss me off.

So if you were alive say in the 1950's would you have just been pissed that MLK wasn't focusing enough on white issues? Do you go to gay pride marches and complain that they're not doing enough for straight people?

Feminism exists to fight for women's equality. Often things that benefit men fall into that wheel house and they fight for that. But it isn't their job to fight for men's rights. Complaining about feminism being for women't rights is akin to complaining that there isn't just one massive rights group fighting for everyone at once.

Just like white people should support the rights of ethnic minorities, straight people should support the rights of LGBT people and men should support the rights of women without asking "But what's in it for me?"

Dictionary first google result:

1
: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

By your writing, the definition of feminism is 2 and not 1. And I am fine with that.

When I hear a feminist saying it is 1, I get suspicious. The root of the word feminism is feminine, saying that is about equality when it starts with an unequal word... Also, too generic and propaganda-like.

Now when I hear 2, it is okay. It is the most sincere definition of the movement and allows discussion of its ways. Rights and interests of a group can be good or bad and should be supported or countered.

 

[DANEgerous]

You know what confuses me? The very idea that some thing as masculine and others are feminine. Why? I do not get it why is cooking feminine despite the fact most professional chefs are male. In fact why are most professional anything male? why is blue for boys but if it is is for a girl it MUST be pink? I like pink and I am a guy why is my 3ed favrote color a female exclusive? Why is any thing a female or for that matter male exclusive? Am insane for thinking that is bullshit? I doubt it I think the world is fucking mad.

 

[Jesterscup]

Agree with almost everything.

I have just doubts about the 1 in 3 and the 15% statisc. Simply because there are a lot of research in this area with conflicting results, bias and interest attached. I don't know what the hell is the real number anymore.

Yeah it is spurious conjecture at best, there is not a single publication that comes up with anything other than an vague estimate. it's also been estimated that over 75% of male abuse survivors never come forward, again just an estimate.

From personal experience however10-15% seems about right, and 75% never admitting it also seems right. I get to this from the number of men who have related their stories to me out of the people I know, and the number of them who say " I've never told anyone else..."

why is blue for boys but if it is is for a girl it MUST be pink?

Historical baggage on the professional side. On the blue/pink divide I believe in victorian times they were reversed. But standing up and saying "this is bullshit" is how we progress ^.^

 

[koichi]

You know what confuses me? The very idea that some thing as masculine and others are feminine. Why? I do not get it why is cooking feminine despite the fact most professional chefs are male. In fact why are most professional anything male? why is blue for boys but if it is is for a girl it MUST be pink? I like pink and I am a guy why is my 3ed favrote color a female exclusive? Why is any thing a female or for that matter male exclusive? Am insane for thinking that is bullshit? I doubt it I think the world is fucking mad.

I believe Macy's or some other major retailer was responsible for the Pink=Girls, Blue=Boys things. Prior to the 1900s or so they were interchangeable and before that reversed. As for the chef thing think about it like this: Cooking is a domestic task normally delegated to the mother. Being a chef however is a profession, you're not cooking for your family, you're crafting a meal for someone else. Meanwhile certain things being masculine and feminine probably has some untraceable history in Latin or something due to the need for nouns to have gender. Remember the concept of zero was revolutionary to the ancient world and I'd wager the idea of something not being a boy or a girl would have been as well.

 

[Auron225]

Good speech, but I don't understand why she didn't mention anything about the campaign itself. What happens if I sign up? What are the campaigns goals? Don't say "gender equality", that's too vague. What does the campaign want to target first? Equal pay? Forced marriages of girls to men? The media's perception and corrupt message of male/female roles? Feminists who actually do hate men (they exist)? How is the campaign going to tackle these issues?

It all sounded like a beautifully put idea with little-to-no explanation as to how to make it happen. It's like someone making a speech about how terrible war is and how great world peace would be, with the chance to sign your name and say "Yes, war is not good", and offer no other solution to help the cause.

 

[Inglorious891]

snip

Eh, kinda yeah.

I've had several male friends come to me to help them through with whatever emotional issues they've been having, some have even come to me crying, and I've helped them out. With helping them out though I realized I would never go to someone else for emotional help unless someone forced me to. Hell, the only times I've allowed myself to cry or even be visually upset about something is if I'm completely alone, otherwise I get the feeling people are going to look down on me because of it. I'unno, part of the reason is due to gender rolls 'n such (it's not OK for a man to be emotional, etc.). There are other things, I suppose, but nothing I'd like to talk about over a public forum.


Although in response to that whole UN campaingn...

Spoiler

Oh boy, another feminist campaign riding the whole, "See, men? We want to help you too!" horse while not actually doing anything to actually help men. I'm seeing these type of campaigns pop up more and more, and it's pretty... dissapointing, especially since this campaign is currently recongized by the freakin' UN. I realize Emma stated in her speech she wants to help men who truly do suffer due to gender inequality, but the entirey of the campaign she's tied to is dedicated to women, not men. I'd be shocked if HeForShe made even the slightest effort to help men versus just recruit them. I wouldn't have a problem if the campaign didn't advertise itself as egalitarianist, but it does, which is why this is so dissapointing and intellectually dishonest.. They say they want to help men, but really they just want men to support them; they couldn't care less about actually helping men with legimitate issues that Emma's speech actually brings up.

Hate to turn this into yet another "fuck feminism!" thread, but for some reason I felt the need to say this.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Dictionary first google result:

1: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

By your writing, the definition of feminism is 2 and not 1. And I am fine with that.

When I hear a feminist saying it is 1, I get suspicious. The root of the word feminism is feminine, saying that is about equality when it starts with an unequal word... Also, too generic and propaganda-like.

Now when I hear 2, it is okay. It is the most sincere definition of the movement and allows discussion of its ways. Rights and interests of a group can be good or bad and should be supported or countered.

When there is a disparity in power and influence between two groups, and you believe in equality between those two groups, it naturally stands to reason that the vast majority of your activity will be on behalf of the underprivileged group. That is how equanimity is eventually achieved. This is not a perfect process, and you will hear constant bleating from one side that certain problems are still not rectified, and constant bleating from the other about pendulums swinging too far.

That you get "suspicious" when people refer to an ideology by using the actual leading dictionary definition of that ideology is a lot more telling about you and your personal attitude towards the ideology than it is about the ideology itself.

They say they want to help men, but really they just want men to support them; they couldn't care less about actually helping men with legimitate issues that Emma's speech actually brings up.

Who is "they" and "them"? Feminists? I'm a feminist. I'm also a man. Do you think I have an active lack of interest in having my own problems addressed?

Is it women? Do you believe that women are so universally united that "they" can be said to "not care" about any particular issue en masse?

 

[Winnosh]

She has to be careful or she'll be stigmatized by being associated with MRAs I agree with what she's saying Female rights and Mens rights should be linked. But most organized Feminism seems to hate people talking about actually doing it.

 

[Inglorious891]

They say they want to help men, but really they just want men to support them; they couldn't care less about actually helping men with legimitate issues that Emma's speech actually brings up.

Who is "they" and "them"? Feminists? I'm a feminist. I'm also a man. Do you think I have an active lack of interest in having my own problems addressed?

Is it women? Do you believe that women are so universally united that "they" can be said to "not care" about any particular issue en masse?

"They" and "them" is the HeForShe organization. And I can't speak for you because I don't know you; I never said I knew about your thoughts on addressing problems you face. The HeForShe organization, on the other hand, is only for helping women. I spent some time looking at the website and it's all for getting men to help women, not for women to help men, or men to help men, etc.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"They" and "them" is the HeForShe organization. And I can't speak for you because I don't know you; I never said I knew about your thoughts on addressing problems you face. The HeForShe organization, on the other hand, is only for helping women. I spent some time looking at the website and it's all for getting men to help women, not for women to help men, or men to help men, etc.

As the UN is a global organization, I'm not terribly surprised.

Also, I actually believe in helping women. I also believe that in helping address hostile/antiquated gender notions that I'd be helping men as well. Much like I might have felt in the 50's that in helping, say, the Civil Rights movement, that I was helping humanity in general, making communities healthier, etc, etc.

I'm a white male who was born into a middle class family in one of the most peaceful, wealthy countries in the world. I accept that my list of personal needs and tragedies...while highly relevant to me...aren't necessarily going to be at the top of a priority list for a UN organization. That doesn't mean I withhold my support, or take a zero-sum attitude towards their efforts.

 

[Inglorious891]

"They" and "them" is the HeForShe organization. And I can't speak for you because I don't know you; I never said I knew about your thoughts on addressing problems you face. The HeForShe organization, on the other hand, is only for helping women. I spent some time looking at the website and it's all for getting men to help women, not for women to help men, or men to help men, etc.

As the UN is a global organization, I'm not terribly surprised.

Also, I actually believe in helping women. I also believe that in helping address hostile/antiquated gender notions that I'd be helping men as well. Much like I might have felt in the 50's that in helping, say, the Civil Rights movement, that I was helping humanity in general, making communities healthier, etc, etc.

I'm a white male who was born into a middle class family in one of the most peaceful, wealthy countries in the world. I accept that my list of personal needs and tragedies...while highly relevant to me...aren't necessarily going to be at the top of a priority list for a UN organization. That doesn't mean I withhold my support, or take a zero-sum attitude towards their efforts.

Considering HeForShe is a global, UN campaign, I'm not surprised it's just for women. My issue isn't with that, it's with the fact that it advertised itself as a campaign to help men when it's not to help men. It's just the dishonestly that gets me, and the fact that most egalitarianist campaigns are actually feminist campaigns that just advertise themselves as helpful for men when in reality the main thrust of their campaign is purely for women, not men. I'd consider supporting a UN feminist campaign if it wasn't for this dishonesty, but because of it I'm cautious to throw myself behind them.

 

[Grahav]

That you get "suspicious" when people refer to an ideology by using the actual leading dictionary definition of that ideology is a lot more telling about you and your personal attitude towards the ideology than it is about the ideology itself.

Basically, what Inglorious891 says.

Also, I actually believe in helping women. I also believe that in helping address hostile/antiquated gender notions that I'd be helping men as well. Much like I might have felt in the 50's that in helping, say, the Civil Rights movement, that I was helping humanity in general, making communities healthier, etc, etc.

I'm a white male who was born into a middle class family in one of the most peaceful, wealthy countries in the world. I accept that my list of personal needs and tragedies...while highly relevant to me...aren't necessarily going to be at the top of a priority list for a UN organization. That doesn't mean I withhold my support, or take a zero-sum attitude towards their efforts.

Considering HeForShe is a global, UN campaign, I'm not surprised it's just for women. My issue isn't with that, it's with the fact that it advertised itself as a campaign to help men when it's not to help men. It's just the dishonestly that gets me, and the fact that most egalitarianist campaigns are actually feminist campaigns that just advertise themselves as helpful for men when in reality the main thrust of their campaign is purely for women, not men. I'd consider supporting a UN feminist campaign if it wasn't for this dishonesty, but because of it I'm cautious to throw myself behind them.

Yep.

And that is the the "best" kind of dishonesty. It can get worse when people use good causes just to get fat with money, or disguise the less savory aspects of an ideology.

Aplies to anything, not just feminism.

Here in Brazil, there is a thing called the "industry of drought". Basically, getting tax money that should be directioned to combat the water shortage on the northeast of the country to get rich.

Or, in case of feminism, pretty words convicing us to join in unlike #killallmen.

My problem with the movement is how their supporters hold anybody that says it is a feminist in almost sacred standards.
It lacks a lot of self-criticism and quality control.

That is why I love Christina Sommers. Based mom is awesome.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That is why I love Christina Sommers.

I watched a "Factual Feminist" video that made the rounds here lately. I saw a condescending woman make vague, hilariously unsupported arguments, hand wave her opposition, poison the well, fling ad hominems around like candy, and basically commit every single one of the same logic and substantiation gaffes that people have accused other commentators on social issues of making, often much more egregiously. Yet, she is embraced with almost religious fervor by a demographic on this website.

Perhaps that video represented her at her worst, but I saw in her mannerisms and talking points the worst kind of polarizing, hostile ideologue.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Considering HeForShe is a global, UN campaign, I'm not surprised it's just for women. My issue isn't with that, it's with the fact that it advertised itself as a campaign to help men when it's not to help men. It's just the dishonestly that gets me, and the fact that most egalitarianist campaigns are actually feminist campaigns that just advertise themselves as helpful for men when in reality the main thrust of their campaign is purely for women, not men. I'd consider supporting a UN feminist campaign if it wasn't for this dishonesty, but because of it I'm cautious to throw myself behind them.

Well...again...I don't consider the notion that by solving problems facing women we also solve some problems facing men to be "dishonest" in the slightest. I also consider helping people in my community, both locally and globally, to be a net benefit to me, because it works towards the kind of world I want to live in. It's why I happily pay taxes for services I don't personally use, or put my shoulder into causes that may never directly address any of my personal issues. I'm hardly a scion, I can be very selfish. I guess I just see "human problems" as opposed to "woman problems", and don't consider addressing them to be working against my interests in any way.

 

[Grahav]

That is why I love Christina Sommers.

I watched a "Factual Feminist" video that made the rounds here lately. I saw a condescending woman make vague, hilariously unsupported arguments, hand wave her opposition, poison the well, fling ad hominems around like candy, and basically commit every single one of the same logic and substantiation gaffes that people have accused other commentators on social issues of making, often much more egregiously. Yet, she is embraced with almost religious fervor by a demographic on this website.

Perhaps that video represented her at her worst, but I saw in her mannerisms and talking points the worst kind of polarizing, hostile ideologue.

So I guess all the sides are the same thing them.

Yay, we have achieved ideological equality!

 

[Dizchu]

I've felt confined by my gender at times, but I don't think it happens very often. While it is a problem for men, gender roles are a lot more debilitating for women imo.

I think this is a very patriarchal view to take. I think sexism is a result of the unreasonable expectations for men and women based on traditional gender roles. It's not a problem "for men" or "for women", it's a problem for humanity as a whole because sexism against men perpetuates sexism against women and vice versa. Sexism breeds sexism and the only way to get rid of the problem is to get rid of gender prejudice as a whole, a very difficult task as everyone has some degree of gender prejudice (we evolved with it, sadly) but the trends in society seems to be moving towards a more androgynous kind of culture, something that'd benefit everyone in the long run.

Feminism has a bad reputation because it is seen as being concerned with women's issues only. I don't think this is entirely the case but despite my opinion that men and women face an equal amount of gender expectation, patriarchal culture relies on the dominance of men and submission of women. While many men don't wish to be dominant, it's the ones that do that get a disproportionate amount of cultural influence. I think the tendency for many feminists to overlook men's issues does more harm than good, and undermines the goal of feminism in the first place. That's why I liked Emma's speech, she recognises that the problem is the patriarchy-propagated gender stereotypes and not some sort of worldwide conspiracy to put women down. All this "straight white male is the easiest difficulty setting" bullshit suggests a widespread ignorance of constructive feminism.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So I guess all the sides are the same thing them.

Well, yes, if you choose a "side" of a polarized debate, you are very likely to rapidly become polarized yourself. There are certain debates where it very literally has to be "us or them". Hard to find a compromise on issues like, say, abortion, or the death penalty. But human rights? Not a zero sum proposition.

 

[Callate]

I think it would be healthy to recognize that there are real differences between the sexes without assuming that someone failing to display what one views as "typical" masculine or feminine behavior is somehow wrong.

A woman can manage a company, and should receive appropriate respect from her employees in doing so.

A man can raise children, and should receive appropriate respect from those he associates with in doing so.

If that woman needs that man to take care of a big hairy spider, or that man wants them to watch an action movie rather than a rom-com, that should be okay, too.

 

[Edl01]

Yeah it is true for sure. I mean you hear Girls talking about how each other look all the time, but if a guy ever comments on some guy looking good/attractive it is assumed they're gay. That is something that's just always bugged me.
As well as that I've received quite a few looks for the fact I refuse to drink Beer(because it's disgusting) and drink cocktails and other drinks often viewed as, "Girly".

I have more examples, but I'll leave it at that. However I am quite happy to see someone who people will actually listen too acknowledging that women aren't the only people who can be hurt by stereotypes.