Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

[Guffe]

-snip-

snap

Remember, when two sides are fighting over some issue, most often truth is close to the middle line.

With that sentence I can agree.
The... "truth(?)" is never just black and white.

Just thought to quote you and write that small wall of text because I thought your last sentence I quoted was waay too aggressive.
I like to see myself as a pretty open minded person and I usually like to hear arguments from both sides before taking a stance, or at least try to find some answers to questions about something before I take a stance.

But if we go into the original meaning, and what feminism is at it's core. That is equality for people. Basically what Christianity has been saying since, well, forever. All that stuff: treat others like you like to be treated etc etc. That is something I identify with.

I am not a religious guy, and I am not into politics.
But anything I think has most likely been thought of before, so why should I not identify with that?

So yeah, but I don't think you can be angry at Emma Watson for trying to do something good.
In that speech she even acknowledges that "feminism" today makes people think of "man haters". That's why I like the term "ultras", because they excist in every movement and every group. More often for the bad than for the good unfortuanetly.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In that speech she even acknowledges that "feminism" today makes people think of "man haters". That's why I like the term "ultras", because they excist in every movement and every group. More often for the bad than for the good unfortuanetly.

What you call "ultras" are useful for that sort of thing, sure, but hardly essential. When people want to hate, to think they are being hated and it's a reasonable response, they will find a reason, whether it exists or not.

 

[Gamer87]

Yeah because as we all know all men are evil overlords that feed feed on privilege while sitting on their patriarchal thrones and if you don't challenge and demonise them at every opportunity you're a traitor to the feminist cause.
They're not entitled to common courtesy, respect or the right not to be judged by their gender. Only women are entitled to that.

The 70's are over, you should leave your man-hating bullshit at home and start treating men (and people in general) as individuals. Because all you're doing is shitting all over the public image of feminism, putting off anybody (male or female) who isn't looking for a movement that exists simply to justify their hate.
She even says in her speech that feminism needs to stop being synonymous with man-hating, well that's never going to happen as long as people like you are acting (or in this case writing) the way you are.

I never said anything about man-hating. I just want everyone regardless of gender identity, race and religion treted with respect.

What I mean is that unequality is EVERYONE's problem, not just the ones that are being treated unfairly. I think more men should get involved in pushing for women's rights. (and I'm talking about equality, not superiority)

If no white people had gotten involved back in the 50's when black people in the United States were being treted bad and gone "Feeling oppressed? LOL, your problem" there would not have been any change.

Doing nothing to help, ignoring injustices when you see them is being a part of the problem.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

Really?

What is it that you want her to do?

Sit in a diamond encrusted mansion and just well . . . nothing?

An improvement of sorts.

Of what kind exactly? It's an improvement if she does nothing rather than something that may benefit mankind? I can only say I don't agree.

Or maybe do you think it's better that people in such a privileged position would at least TRY to do something to affect change for those of us who are not so fortunate?

She's worth £30 million, she could use her fortune to actually try and affect change.
Instead she just lectures from a pulpit.

She's a UN ambassador what the fuck is it you want her to do? Hand out loaves of bread to needy men and women in Syria? The whole point of such a speech is to be heard. To spread the ideas and ideals therein.

Am I really to understand that you would refuse her position of wealth and fame in the same shoes?

Of course I wouldn't refuse her wealth and fame, I would just use it for doing real good, not just superficial, ultimately self-serving good.

Easy to say isn't it? Not necessarily so easy to do. Everyone is allowed in this life to be selfish. It's OK to be selfish. But if you have a good heart and want to do something for the common good then that's great too!

As for ideas I got a real doosy:
"Love one another"
Or if aren't feeling that one:
"Be cool"

Yeah because things that hippies scribble on walls while tripping on heroin always end up being great ideas for changing the world.

Oh you kids . . . . I had a good laugh at that though. But seriously if you can't get the idea I'm trying to get over there then I'm not going to bother going into more detail. Is the idea to try not being an asshole really so hard to understand?

fyi bringing race into this ("Rich, attractive white women . . .") is just silly and made me lose all respect for anything you may have said. I recognise you may be a *expletive deleted* but cmon.

WHOA, WHOA, whoa, whoa. Seriously?
First of all, you think race is a non-factor here? Are you ignorant? You really think outlets like Fox News would have kept their silence on this if it was Beyonce or Oprah making the same statements?
Second of all, you're going to call me a ****** in the same paragraph? FUCKING SERIOUSLY?

The fact that you thought "******" was the word I had in mind kinda makes my point for me tbh. Suffice to say it wasn't. Also, if you want to take your news from places like Fox then Jesus Fucking H "on a bike" Christ what do you expect? A station so well well known for being intolerant and massively right wing (you know they still think the KKK was a pretty good idea? j/k or maybe not you never know with those guys) should not be used as evidence.

PPS
"U wot m8? Cum an av sum if u tink ur ard enuff! U an ur mum n'all! U bleedin ****!" Above not related.

More racism.......fantastic.

Indeed? Not seeing that myself. More like I was just seeing the intense antagonism that your post was making and responded to it - in a typical London fansion.

Do yourself a favor mate - travel more and talk less. Might do you some good

PS Im sensing that this is a pointless argument. Your ideas are so far out that Zafod Beeblebrox wouldn't be dealing with them - and neither will I - or at least not anymore.

 

[Gamer87]

I never said anything about man-hating. I just want everyne regardless of gender identity, race and religion treted with respect.

Well what you actually did was agree with the sentiment that her speech was not aggressive enough and "pandered" too much to males.
If you want everyone to be treated with respect there's no reason why you should protest her catering to the male view.

What I mean is that unequality is EVERYONE's problem, not just the ones that are being treated unfairly.

And yet you criticise Miss Watson for saying that very thing in a non-confrontational manner.

I think more men should get involved in pushing for women's rights. (and I'm talking about equality, not superiority) If no white people had gotten involved back in the 50's when black people in the United States and gone "Feeling oppressed? LOL, your problem" there would not have been any change.

No mention of more women getting involved in pushing for men's rights, that doesn't sound like true equality to me.

Doing nothing to help, ignoring injustices when you see them is being a part of the problem.

Pretending to help while simply feeding one's own ego is even worse.

1. I just think it's sad that she had to be overly polite about such a big issue that needs fixing so badly. "Please, could my gender be treated a little less like shit" instead of "I demand my rights as a human being!" I don't mean she could have gone of the offense and attacked anyone.

2. I don't critizise her at all, her speech was great. I just think it's sad that we live in a world where she HAD to be so timid about it not to be labeled a madwoman.

3. Women should definitely get involved in pushing for men's rights. Women and men should get involved in pushing for LGBTQ rights, adults should get involved in pushing for children's rights, all races should get involved in pushing for the rights of races that are being discriminated against. I just brought up women's rights here as I see it as the biggest issue in the world right now that needs fixing, not saying you can't simultaneously fight for a better world for other groups.

4. Yes that would be a bad thing to do.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

fyi bringing race into this ("Rich, attractive white women . . .") is just silly and made me lose all respect for anything you may have said. I recognise you may be a *expletive deleted* but cmon.

WHOA, WHOA, whoa, whoa. Seriously?
First of all, you think race is a non-factor here? Are you ignorant? You really think outlets like Fox News would have kept their silence on this if it was Beyonce or Oprah making the same statements?
Second of all, you're going to call me a ****** in the same paragraph? FUCKING SERIOUSLY?

I think the expletive he's referring to is more likely to be 'troll', since the forum rules, AFAIK, are that you can't refer to other users as such. There's been a recent rash of replacing banned or unpopular terms with others, like '[redacted]' and 'Literally Who'.

Edit because I wouldn't want to be putting words in someone's mouth: he/she may/may not have meant troll; that is simply my perception of the events that transpired on that fateful evening.

I definitely didn't mean that you rhino's gonad! I meant "very very nice person whose words are logical, thought out, well received and without even the slightest possibility of reproach or skepticism".

Definitely.

 

[carnex]

With that sentence I can agree.
The... "truth(?)" is never just black and white.

Just thought to quote you and write that small wall of text because I thought your last sentence I quoted was waay too aggressive.
I like to see myself as a pretty open minded person and I usually like to hear arguments from both sides before taking a stance, or at least try to find some answers to questions about something before I take a stance.

But if we go into the original meaning, and what feminism is at it's core. That is equality for people. Basically what Christianity has been saying since, well, forever. All that stuff: treat others like you like to be treated etc etc. That is something I identify with.

I am not a religious guy, and I am not into politics.
But anything I think has most likely been thought of before, so why should I not identify with that?

So yeah, but I don't think you can be angry at Emma Watson for trying to do something good.
In that speech she even acknowledges that "feminism" today makes people think of "man haters". That's why I like the term "ultras", because they excist in every movement and every group. More often for the bad than for the good unfortuanetly.

Why would I be angry at Emma Watson? She most likely speaks from the heart (and probably PR revisioned script since I doubt she want to cause controversy by accident). But she speaks of something you speak off too, a type of movement that has been killed since it's become mostly useless. It achieved basically everything it could to get women legal rights and even won hearts and minds of majority. And it did that in seventies and eighties.

Feminism moved on. It's simple as that. I would once definitely consider myself feminist, not because it's for gender equality (mere name would make me avoid movement that has name that strictly opposes it's stated goal) but because it did promote women's rights that were lacking. But given what I can find of what feminist movement with it's most prominent members in positions of significant political influence did in last three decades makes me think that that movement is to be opposed and stopped. If you wish I can start naming things that made me think so but I did that already several times on this board so I choose not to bore people again unless I'm directly asked to do so.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

I definitely didn't mean that you rhino's gonad! I meant "very very nice person whose words are logical, thought out, well received and without even the slightest possibility of reproach or skepticism".

Definitely.

Noted, and I appreciate the compliment regarding my pendulous and splendorous nutsack.

It can only be said, in truth, that the sight of your pendulous and splendorous nutsack has filled me with the the most indomitable and engaging feelings of licentiousness ever engaged upon this personage.

It enlightens my soul, with the most exquisite feelings of wantonness, that I can barely contain my throbbing *expletive deleted* (no not ******).

I would consider it of the best serendipity to behold it in all of its full and unadulterated glory.

Ok I'm done.

PS. I'm not as good as Blackadder and I know it - no need to rub it in.

PPS. SAUSAGE!!!!

 

[Shock and Awe]

I feel like it can be restraining to many men who don't feel to confident in their masculinity for one reason or another. This leads to men feeling like they have to prove how manly they are by either being overly stoic, shunning anything not 'manly', or by becoming an obsessive womanizer. This is definitely a problem. I feel like these attitudes can lead to a fair amount of violence(because men don't back down!), it limits mens' horizons, and is just annoying to deal with. The worst aspect of it is probably this notion some men have that education and intelligence isn't manly. This is more damaging then anything.

On a personal note I've never really had a problem with it in how I see myself. I do partake in many 'manly' activities such as shooting, hiking, weight lifting, and stuff like that. But I also love things that aren't 'manly like cooking and reading.

 

[ckam]

"Be a man and don't do ." Yeah, it gives me a bit more anxiety than like.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It achieved basically everything it could to get women legal rights and even won hearts and minds of majority. And it did that in seventies and eighties.

I uh...I'm going to assume you are referring to very specific countries when you make claims like this. Unless you think gender equality was achieved globally in the seventies and eighties. You've self identified as ardently "anti-feminist", so maybe you do, I don't know.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

I put down "maybe". I don't really care about my gender in general; I mean, I grow my hair really long, even though I'm a guy, and even at 19 years old, I still get people mistaking me for a girl. Doesn't hurt that I shave my face and wear baggy clothing. I don't care much, anyway. I only really identify as male in the first place for convenience; I was born male and I'm attracted to women, and since that's the assumption that people make when they meet me it's much easier than explaining that I feel that I have few particularly masculine or feminine traits one way or the other.

I do, however, struggle with my anxiety issues and feeling of general inadequacy. I'm a lonely person, so sometimes I feel like I would like to have a girlfriend. However, this is really difficult for a variety of reasons, one of which is my social anxiety, but I also also don't feel very... attractive to girls, since I'm neurotic, scrawny, awkward, not confident, and overall not very masculine. In this regard,I do have somewhat of an issue with gender expectations.

 

[carnex]

It achieved basically everything it could to get women legal rights and even won hearts and minds of majority. And it did that in seventies and eighties.

I uh...I'm going to assume you are referring to very specific countries when you make claims like this. Unless you think gender equality was achieved globally in the seventies and eighties. You've self identified as ardently "anti-feminist", so maybe you do, I don't know.

You are right. I should have made my statement clear. As a general statement applied world wide it's a pile of garbage. My apologies.

I'm referring to what's usually considered western civilizations plus European ex communist countries most of all. Maybe Japan and Australia and Oceania (and even that has plenty of spots I know very little about. Hek I know next to nothing about Oceania with exception of New Zealand)but that's it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You are right. I should have made my statement clear. As a general statement applied world wide it's a pile of garbage. My apologies.

I'm referring to what's usually considered western civilizations plus European ex communist countries most of all. Maybe Japan and Australia and Oceania (and even that has plenty of spots I know very little about. Hek I know next to nothing about Oceania with exception of New Zealand)but that's it.

It's all good, that was my assumption. =)

I know Oceania has terrible ping times in a lot of online games. Is the limit of my knowledge of the area.

 

[Jenvas1306]

sexism goes beyond just legal rights.
these days girls are applauded for being feminine and also when they are masculine. but for a feminine boy that looks quite different.
I know a lot of guys who have issues dealing with their feelings because all they ever learned was to suppress them (my own bf being one of them).
just bringing awareness to those things is a start.

But to me personally its a bit more important that people who have the same 'gender configuration' as me get murdered just for that.

 

[Lightknight]

What if aggressiveness and the desire to control is a biologically evolved quality in men? We actually know for a fact that testosterone increases aggressiveness and that's not going to change. Aggressiveness also plays a significant role in desire to control and not be controlled. While women can of course be controlling and aggressive too, we're simply more predisposed to it and saying that it's wrong for us to be that way is as silly as telling a gay man not to be gay.

This is a nice speech. Kudos on her for realizing that men actually deal with heavy stereotyping and social strong-arming to be something that we aren't necessarily supposed to be. Nice that she recognizes that we are regularly stereotyped as the idiots while the all-knowing females watch over us in disdain and bemusement. It's as offensive as black face without being so overt or clearly definable. But clearly painting a picture of men being dumb and ineffective with females being unappreciated and the real leader.

Pretending like our gender differences are just socially programmed is false. We are likely the sum of nature and nurture and testosterone is a hell of a hormone just like the estrogen/progesterone cycle is. There are social demands that are placed on males which can be alleviated so that men who don't meet the stereotypes probably do feel confined. So we can work on those as a society and it will help some people. But the components that make men, men, aren't going to go away.

But good on her for bringing the topic up. Nice level headed and considerate approach. I may disagree with her general premise but there is certainly some social programming that's contributing to the issue too. Her statement was not offensive and was truly necessary in society to hear from a prominent female. It's a decent start.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

This business with framing 4chan for threatening to leak Emma Watson nudes by this Rantic.com site only for them to ask the bloody President of the United States to shut down 4chan and censor the internet is some grade A Metal Gear Cold War bullshit. Seriously, what is with all the elaborate plots on the internet nowadays?

Here is what they said when the counter ran out:

Spoiler

Dear Barack Obama,

" We have been hired by celebrity publicists to bring this disgusting issue to attention. The recent 4chan celebrity nude leaks in the past 2 months have been an invasion of privacy and is also clear indication that the internet NEEDS to be censored. Every Facebook like, share & Twitter mention will count as a social signature -- and will be one step closer to shutting down www.4chan.org. "

Sincerely,
Rantic.com

Source: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/he-for-she

Also, on the topic of not fitting into "gender stereotypes" or what have you, my perspective is this. Being a a man means not letting someone else define what that is for you.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This business with framing 4chan for threatening to leak Emma Watson nudes by this Rantic.com site only for them to ask the bloody President of the United States to shut down 4chan and censor the internet is some grade A Metal Gear Cold War bullshit. Seriously, what is with all the elaborate plots on the internet nowadays?

You mean the elaborate hoaxes?

I think P.T. Barnum covered all the bases on that front a long time ago.

 

[Lightknight]

A couple interesting things is that, as a male, I feel like any time I talk to a child or woman that there always has to be someone else in the room. I feel like at any moment I can be falsely accused of anything and find myself whisked away by an angry mob to prison for something I did NOT do.

For example, I would love to be a foster parent and adopt children. But that concern is always at the back of my mind, that trying to help or be a good person can ultimately be turned to evil against me just because society sees the potential of a rapist or molester in every male.

I do not feel like women face that sort of thing at all. When I was a kid, the male role models in my life played an amazing role. Examples of good strong men who loved teaching children and never so much as laid a finger on me. I feel like I am unable to repay them their kindness by passing it along to the next generation because nowadays children can't even play alone in the streets like we used to because some bad guy is lurking around the corner in our minds. And they may really be there too, which makes the whole damn thing all the more pervasive.

THREAD REQUEST: Keep the any debate civil. First mention of "SJW" earns 20 crotch punches.

I'll point out that in making this request, you are the first person to mention it. I'll expect a youtube video of you carrying out your sentence on my screen by midnight.

What she said has nothing to do with SJWs. SJWs aren't asking for equality, Emma's entire speech was acknowledging that there is a disparity and men are on the losing end of it too just like some women are. It was a wholesale request for equality in a way most people can support even if we disagree with more specific assumptions like the nature/nurture bit I mentioned above. You probably understand that, and that's likely why you made that preface for the thread. But if someone had breached the topic it would have served as an opportunity to see those of us with an ax to grind against the Sarkeesians of this world defend someone who is doing it right. That would have been something interesting to see.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'll point out that in making this request, you are the first person to mention it. I'll expect a youtube video of you carrying out your sentence on my screen by midnight.

Fortunately, as the thread author, I am beyond reproach, and award myself twenty cookies instead. Which I will hand out to homeless folks on the way home, because I'm That Good a Guy, and also because I don't even really like cookies very much. I should have awarded myself tacos. =(