Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

[Trippy Turtle]

I tend to ignore roles/expectations etc when it suits me. So I voted no.
If I was the type that wanted to show emotion to others, I'd have friends that would accept that. Doesn't really matter what society thinks. Its the people you are actually close to that count.
As it is. I hate being emotional in front of others and have no fucking clue what to do when others start sharing their deepest sorrows with me. So, being a man, this whole gender role rather suits me from that perspective. I'm simply too manly for emotions.

As for the speech, as far as speeches on this topic go I think it was fairly good.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Doesn't really matter what society thinks. Its the people you are actually close to that count.

Well...what do you mean by "close to"?

I mean, what your work colleagues (for example) think of you can be very important.

 

[spoonybard.hahs]

It depends on the issue really.


My girlfriend is a feminist, but recognizes the need for gender roles, because if shes having a bad day, if I let her mood ruinine we'd just ***** and moan at each other and then the dogs wouldn't get walked. And if the dogs don't get walked then they shit and piss all over the house, then we're in a bad mood and there's shit and piss all over everything.

And that is an apt metaphore for the whole situation. Someone has to suck it up and get on with things, or it'll all get covered in shit. And piss.

That's not a definition of a gender role. That's what well-adjusted grown-ups should be doing. You don't need to be masculine or feminine to be supportive or comforting or empathetic.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Doesn't really matter what society thinks. Its the people you are actually close to that count.

Well...what do you mean by "close to"?

I mean, what your work colleagues (for example) think of you can be very important.

I see what you mean, but at the same time I feel like I wouldn't want to work somewhere with people I wasn't close to as at least sort-of friends. If they can't accept a co worker for not conforming to a gender role though, I feel like they would be more likely to be judged for mentioning it than you are for not conforming.

If you were asking out of context of the thread though, I guess as long as you aren't losing your job over it then it doesn't matter what they think of it either. If you were losing your job over being honest about yourself either A: You don't want a job there anyway or B: The job is important enough to you that you are willing to just act 'normal' for them at work.

 

[Kathinka]

while there certainly is some equality issues that need addressing, i think it's dumb to strife for total conformity and euality in every aspect of life. girls are different from them boys, that's just how it is. to an extend, gender rules reflect those differences. that's why, even though i'm a girl that wants equal treatment, pay and so on for both genders, i hesitate to identify with feminisim.

 

[CFriis87]

What I feel the movement needs is a powerful voice to address both sides, a rallying cry to end this ceaseless madness on the internet.

They have one, she's called Christina Hoff Sommers and she's generally labeled an anti-feminist conservatard by the rest of the feminist movement, so it doesn't really seem like the movement is very interested in having a strong voice addressing both sides.
Look her up on YouTube, she has her own channel called the Factual Feminist.

 

[CFriis87]

The fact that many MRAs and feminists feel their respective movements are directly in opposition really doesn't help either.

Well, in that the MRM started as a reactionary backlash against feminism, they are correct about that.

Actually, the MRM started out as a sort of ally to feminism, lobbying for the sexual liberation of men while feminism lobbied for the sexual liberation of women.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Warren_Farrell_leads_a_group_of_men_protesting,_1972.jpg
Here you see them protesting objectification of men in 1972 as an offshoot from feminism, led by the man who was also the president of the National Organisation for Women.

There are a number of reasons the MRM as it is now is firmly against feminism, most of which you can rea, along with sources, in this post of mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861411-Poll-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality?page=7#21443114

 

[manic_depressive13]

-

That's quite a leap between "rich and successful" and "has a job". Could that be because perhaps women are less likely to be able to support a family on their income alone? Plus I don't see where it says that men wouldn't prefer a fit partner.

Edit: Oh look beaten to the punch.

 

[MisterM2402]

hmm, personally its not confining but a minor annoyance, at least nowadays. For example, i enjoy cooking. Cant tell you how many "you would make an excellent wife one day" comments i get.

That's so weird, considering how many male TV chefs there are. Have they never heard of Gordon Ramsay?

 

[giles]

hmm, personally its not confining but a minor annoyance, at least nowadays. For example, i enjoy cooking. Cant tell you how many "you would make an excellent wife one day" comments i get.

That's so weird, considering how many male TV chefs there are. Have they never heard of Gordon Ramsay?

I get comments about my cooking too, but they are generally supportive. The worst I've got come from more distant parts of my family along the lines of "that's just how it is these days" and that's about it. I'm the one who then jokes about becoming a good housewife. Why would I be annoyed at them? It's not like I'm super insecure about spontaneously growing a vagina or something.
Cmon grow a spine and own up to your hobby

I don't think the male stereotype is confining to me. I'm grown up enough to pick and choose which ideals I want for myself and I can actually sympathize with the quest for independence and self-improvement that's tied to the male stereotype. Basically, everytime I find this thread on the front page I have this song play in my head and have to find it on youtube (seriously)

♫ We must be swift as the coursing river ♫

 

[Something Amyss]

There are a number of reasons the MRM as it is now is firmly against feminism, most of which you can rea, along with sources, in this post of mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861411-Poll-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality?page=7#21443114

I do admire the depth of the cherry picking there.

 

[thenoblitt]

I thought it was dumb that she goes off and says oh yes men are oppressed too so what they should do is support women.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Yeah, she has a point, rearing children men are devalued especially in single mother households. Women may have the right to not be a mother but most men could do that, not an abortion per say but they can't sign away there rights have no say in what their child support money is for and run the risk of being taken to the cleaners in a divorce even though she did nothing to help or if she simply married into it. There's not even such a thing as paternity fraud. Women are provided legal council far easily than men.

However every time issues of feminism comes up it somehow turns into male expectations, I mean talk to any random open feminist (I dare you!) and they'll tell you straight what a man is suppose to do and be and what a woman is supposed to have... Now reverse that and see how they struggle.

The emasculation of males is as damaging as the the devaluing of women however I can't blame women or feminism directly as most of these problems are controlled by men, we make most laws set most standards and are most of the authority figures.
But the reason men aren't going "...yeah, things need to change" is because there's no money in it, especially in regards to children and health (mental or otherwise).


So I don't think she's wrong but it's not getting to the root of the problem.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

She?s made some good points in a reasoned manner, which is more than I can say for a lot of other gung-ho activists. I mean, I?m a guy and, despite having had more than my fair share of shitty days where I just felt like crawling into a black hole, I?ve only cried about twice in the last four years: at the school memorial of one of my classmates, and towards the end of watching Grave of the Fireflies.

On the other hand, I?ve known girls who are much able to get the tears flowing when things get on top of them. I don?t think it?s all about ?tend and befriend? vs. ?fight or flight?; I think it?s partly due to socialisation and some stuff just sticks and never goes away with some people.

But to answer your question?no, I don?t really feel like traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for me. Not that much, at least. I?ve never been the manliest of men, but I?ve never been outwardly effeminate either. I?m probably the most open person in my main friend group about my feelings, and they?ve never seriously lambasted me for it. The majority of my interests are rather gender-neutral: writing, anime, etc. I?m not the best with girls, and it is kind of sucky that I?m expected to start the conversation with a girl that I like, but, y?know, I?m not gonna pretend like I?m disadvantaged or anything.

However, I also don?t like some feminists? mentality that women are constantly victims in society, that need to be protected from the patriarchy, etc. Like, if my sister?s male colleague pinched her butt at the workplace, I?d call him an asshole rather than a misogynist. I wouldn?t say the majority of men have the mentality that it?s OK to go up to a stranger and touch them wherever they want just because they?re a girl. If they do, then?they?re assholes, and no-one told them it?s OK to do that.

Nah I'm pretty sure gender roles exist because of biology, not social pressure.

Some of them, not all.

Male genital mutilation remains acceptable, in fact in some cases even desirable, in the US. Some traditional subcultures in the US even go so far as to perform the mutilation by BITING the foreskin off.

Well...male genital mutilation (or circumcision) is quite the male equivalent to female genital mutilation. With female circumcision, it literally fucks the girl's vagina for life, to the point that it hurts even being sexually penetrated (that's part of the point, for some sadistic reason). With men, while some would argue nerve endings are severed and the foreskin is a fairly important part of the penis, it's got a much lower chance of being botched or having long-term problems, and you can still get a good amount of girth and pleasure during sex. With women, it's a 100% failure, because female circumcision doesn't make the vagina any cleaner, any more religiously pure, or anything.

Although, yeah, biting off a boy?s foreskin is?well, that?s just fucking crazy.

 

[Fox12]

SANITY! AT LONG LAST SANITY!

Seriously though, it's a good speech. Hopefully it goes somewhere.

It was terrible.

Instead of spending her time talking about real sexism in the world, she just reinforced the idea that western feminists are entitled women who are just trying to find anything to complain about.

So she was called bossy by her brothers for wanting to direct a play, non context, perhaps she was bossy, and her bossy attitude got her the role as the bossy hermione character she got to play, seems like she got rewarded for it, to a tune of 30 million dollars. So complaining about how you were treated as a kid in one incident is simply bonkers, kids pick on one another, reading too much into it is absurd. Her other example..her female friends stopped playing sports because they didnt want to be athletic, yea? So what. Is that trivial thing really evidence of "sexism" or the fact that men and women have different interests. I highly doubt those same friends followed sports the same way many male sports fan do, and male sports fans do not necessarily play the sport themselves either, its not because they are worried about their bodies, its because they don't want to, or they are lazy. But if one wanted to use the feminist mindset, it must be misandry that stops those mens from playing sports when they get older, held back by society, forced to be content watching from the side lines....
blaah...

She is part of the most privileged class in the world, white western wealthy attractive female. And she has the temerity to whine about supposed sexism in britain? It was laughable. She has more rights than men even, she gets to decide if a man becomes a father even against his consent, she can kill the child or force him to be a father, she has more right than a man. And that's just a start.

She can force a man to be a father without his consent? Whoa, how did she do that? Is it one of her wizard powers? Can she make me a father without my consent? How do I protect myself?

Oh, wait, you mean sex. If a man chooses to have consensual sex with a woman, then he can't complain about being "forced" to become a father, especially if it was unprotected. She didn't force him to have sex, it was a choice he made. He should also help provide for the child he made, atleast financially, if in no other way. I would argue the same should hold true for women, though my pro-life stance will probably earn me hate. Have all the sex you want, but a woman an't force you to be a father. It's called taking responsibility for your life.

Anyway, her points are good. It's foolish to say that a woman should be less submissive while also telling a man that he needs to be authoritative and mocho. You can be a strong male role model without being a testosterone fueled junkie. Basically, you can't change one half of the gender spectrum without looking at the problems with both sides.

 

[Jack Action]

A rich, ridiculously beautiful woman. I'm sure her life is absolutely horrible.

To answer the poll (because I've had just enough alcohol to be incapable of reading 7 pages of posts to contribute otherwise), no, I don't. Not expressing emotions comes naturally to me.

 

[Flowen]

YES.

A handful of quick examples:

Women are more open with their feelings. I wish it was more culturally acceptable for men to show weakness, or emotion or whatever.

Men are expected to be the ones who do the asking out. For the record - asking people out is terrifying.

I enjoy ballroom and latin dancing, writing fanfic, horse-riding, and I really don't enjoy most team sports (football, rugby, etc). All of those have earned me strange looks at times.

So... yes, gender stereotypes feel confining. And I say that as a guy. I also recognise that it's worse for women, and probably at a whole new level of horrible if you're somewhere in the middle.

I enjoy both Rugby and Ballroom / Latin dancing. I have never been as terrified playing rubgy as I have been learning tango.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Oh, wait, you mean sex. If a man chooses to have consensual sex with a woman, then he can't complain about being "forced" to become a father, especially if it was unprotected. She didn't force him to have sex, it was a choice he made. He should also help provide for the child he made, atleast financially, if in no other way. I would argue the same should hold true for women, though my pro-life stance will probably earn me hate. Have all the sex you want, but a woman an't force you to be a father. It's called taking responsibility for your life.

Bullsh!t


That train of thought alone is a reason why women can never be equal, the fact that you would state that a woman bares little to no of the responsibility for her sexual exploits over a mans is tantamount to treating women like ignorant children.
You assume a man is sexually irressponsible for not covering it up but where are the people saying "why didn't you make him wear a condom?"

A woman has a privilege and in some/many countries a man doesn't have, a right to decide "what ever enters me I want to come forth" in regards to creating life, excluding rape a man can't come in a woman's house, her mouth or between her legs without her say so.

That's what equality is, equal share of responsibility, actions, judgement and punishment.


EDIT
On that note, have any of you been chatted up to by a girl and when you said you weren't interested was accused of being gay? What is that?

 

[implodinggoat]

Both men and women should feel free to be sensitive. Both men and women should feel free to be strong.

This is a contradiction in terms. You either rule your emotions or they rule you.

You can either be sensitive or strong, yin or yang. They both have value; but homogenizing them weakens them both.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

A woman has a privilege and in some/many countries a man doesn't have, a right to decide "what ever enters me I want to come forth" in regards to creating life, excluding rape a man can't come in a woman's house, her mouth or between her legs without her say so.

You'll have to forgive me for being an idiot, but I'm confused on two points;

"what ever enters me I want to come forth"

Generally, if something enters me, I want it to come forth. Rarely does something enter me. In truth, food does so the most. And yes, I want it to come forth, for other wise I would be a giant of a man. A rotund fellow, the like of which you have never seen. A man so barrel-like, they might call me 'baffle the barrel' (if Baffle was my real name).

I said in regards to creating life, you!

excluding rape a man can't come in a woman's house, her mouth or between her legs without her say so.

You are correct, this is absolutely the case, except the house example. That is being an unwanted guest, not a rapist.

edit: screwed my quotes up because I'm a fool of a Took.

Ha! thanks for the laugh, you got me there.

Oh, wait, you mean sex. If a man chooses to have consensual sex with a woman, then he can't complain about being "forced" to become a father, especially if it was unprotected. She didn't force him to have sex, it was a choice he made. He should also help provide for the child he made, atleast financially, if in no other way. I would argue the same should hold true for women, though my pro-life stance will probably earn me hate. Have all the sex you want, but a woman an't force you to be a father. It's called taking responsibility for your life.

Bullsh!t

That train of thought alone is a reason why women can never be equal, the fact that you would state that a woman bares little to no of the responsibility for her sexual exploits over a mans is tantamount to treating women like ignorant children.
You assume a man is sexually irressponsible for not covering it up but where are the people saying "why didn't you make him wear a condom?"

Where in Fox's post did it say that women take little to no responsibility for their sexual exploits? All I saw was that men should take responsibility for theirs. Is asking men to take responsibility for their actions to the slightest of degrees absolving women of all their responsibility now?

I'm honestly not sure what train of thought you're on, but you should probably get off and come back, because it's taking you away from the actual point being made.

By not including women it's implied
All anyone ever says is "Take care of your responsibilities" in regards to me to the point that even the US president goes on about it but when has anyone said "You women need to stop having kids you can't provide for" A women can keep, abort, give up her child but a man can barely sign away his rights as easily as a woman.

The men that don't stick around are generally/typically not father material to begin with but women still allow them to impregnate them. Now these women raise these kids on their own (with their mother and the government) and are the first teachers of their children knowing how sexually irresponsible they where won't then provide their own children with the protection they ignored. You can't hold men responsible for something like that, they aren't there.

If fox said "same thing with women" or something there'd be no issue but he made a blanket statement what men should do and even if men did "take care of their responsibilities" there's no real benefit to it,
- he pays child support, she doesn't have to let him see his children.
- you lose your job get an unemployment check, she can claim half (sometimes more than half)
- she gets made the police get you and when they find out she lied but she is not punished and still can't see his kids anymore
- she can put the baby up for adoption without the fathers consent.
- she needs to maintain a high standard of living for her kids an is provided with furnished accommodation yet the mans children have to visit a studio apartment to see their dad
- you miss a child support payment you can go to prison for up to six months get a criminal record and they still ask for repayments despite collecting more on that debt.

And these examples aren't isolated, it happens a lot, so my train of thought is don't make it sound that simple, cause it's not.

If a woman can chose not to be a mother any man can choose not to be a father.