Poll: Ex-marine shot at 70 times hit atleast 60 bleeds out because SWAT team wouldn't let paramedic's in

Trolldor

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BlackIvory said:
Trolldor said:
Oh! Back seat tactician everybody!

Go on, tell us how a fully trained SWAT team should act based on your experience with counter-strike and watching movies.
I live in Israel, I was 3 years in the army, I'm a combat medic and I had friends with more training and sense in their trigger finger then all those SWAT cops. Trust me when I say hostile situations are NOT something unfamiliar here, I may not be a master "tactician" but what I said is still perfectly valid.
No, it's not.

For one, if you had the experience you claim then you'd recognise that environment is a substantial factor in behaviour and that they operate within specific set of guidelines, among the training they recieve. You'd know that the problem has nothing to do with an individual SWAT team.
 

BlackIvory

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Baneat said:
I just doubt a rubber bullet would put someone down(and out) faster than they can pull a trigger. The fastest way is probably to use real bullets, which reduces the danger to the team.
You be surprised how painfull rubber bullets can be. A team of even 2 guys showering you with them will put you down in a second. We're talking hard condensed rubber flying at you at around 300 m/s(if i remember correctly, too early now :p) you will go down fast.

Trolldor said:
No, it's not.
For one, if you had the experience you claim then you'd recognise that environment is a substantial factor in behaviour and that they operate within specific set of guidelines, among the training they recieve. You'd know that the problem has nothing to do with an individual SWAT team.
Of course that environment is a factor, that doesn't change the fact thier intel was basically non-existent, they didn't know what they were going into (which granted isnt those guys faults, but of the entire operation as a whole),and their enviroment? a suburbian home in the middle of the day...hardly a hostile enviroment.

And from the way it looks, they just started panicking and shooting wherever, like someone noted above me, one of them started shooting "gangsta style" around the corner, thats NOT how profesionals should act.
 

thepyrethatburns

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Trolldor said:
Because people seem to completely miss the problem repeatedly I'll say it here - stop giving the public easy access to firearms, stop being so hostile towards police.
The trouble rests with those who issue the orders, who make the laws, who establish the guidelines and rules that those lower in the chain have to abide by.
It doesn't help that the police get firebombed when responding to noise complaints, and that bogan hicks keep telling their children to disrespect the 'pigs'.
Nevermind all those rapists, murderers and thieves, all the child molesters and slave traffickers they capture. Nevermind those hostages they save. They're only in it for the power, right?
That misses the problem that people are increasingly hostle towards the police because the legal system from the courts to the cops is increasingly hostle towards the citizenry.

Thusly, my referencing the Indiana State Supreme Court's recent decision. As the legislature continue to pass laws expanding police powers and the courts increasingly let even the grossest misconduct go with minimal penalties, the potential for abuse grows as does the number of cops who do abuse the system. Faced with a system that is becoming increasingly oppressive towards it's citizenry, it should not be surprising that people are becoming increasingly hostle towards the police who are the visible enforcers of such laws.

It may be surprising to you but widespread distrust of the police is actually a relatively new phenomenon. While there were always bad apples and noone liked to get a speeding ticket, cops were generally respected. The increasing hostility toward the cops started in the early-mid 80s. I've read a number of theories discussing this which have causes ranging from expanded search & seizure powers in order to pursue the War on Drugs to rap music becoming increasingly "gangsta" with an emphasis on "**** the police". I couldn't tell you what combination of factors is accurate but it's something that you should ask yourself as to why, in a relatively short period of time, the perception of cops went from respect to distrust.

Certainly kicking down doors without warrants, blowing away the people inside, refusing medical attention and then lying about what happened while sealing off the records doesn't help their image.
 

rednose1

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Multiple SWAT members armed with assualt rifles, and they can't actively control their weapons/themselves to prevent 70 rounds? This is then overkill, and while cool in movies, in real life is horrible. Saying, "Sorry, I just couldn't control my weapon, or I didn't know EVERYONE was going to fire." Isn't a valid excuse. They either need more training, or less firepower.
 

geldonyetich

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Timedraven 117 said:
no lead that would be aganst the geneva convention
No, bullets are definately still made of lead [http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_bullets_made_of_lead]. I think you're confusing this with dum dum bullets [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet#Law] which are rather barbaric rounds whose purpose is to expand in order to cause far nastier wounds. Apparently, even this word of mouth is not completely accurate [http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html].

Or maybe you're thinking they're using depleted uranium rounds [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium] instead, which are still considered poisonous rounds due to their own batch of nasty post-impact health implications. They're also unlikely to be used outside of war since the bullets are considered toxic waste in need of recovery.
 

Timedraven 117

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geldonyetich said:
Timedraven 117 said:
no lead that would be aganst the geneva convention
No, bullets are definately still made of lead [http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_bullets_made_of_lead]. I think you're confusing this with dum dum bullets [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet#Law] which are rather barbaric rounds whose purpose is to expand in order to cause far nastier wounds. Apparently, even this word of mouth is not completely accurate [http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html].

Or maybe you're thinking they're using depleted uranium rounds [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium] instead, which are still considered poisonous rounds due to their own batch of nasty post-impact health implications. They're also unlikely to be used outside of war since the bullets are considered toxic waste in need of recovery.
you sure of that? 100's of 1000's of people have been shot since 1939 and i have not heard of a single case of lead poisining by a bullet yes lead is still used in bullets (sorry about that part) but not in high enough quantities to cause lead poisining
 

Timedraven 117

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rednose1 said:
Multiple SWAT members armed with assualt rifles, and they can't actively control their weapons/themselves to prevent 70 rounds? This is then overkill, and while cool in movies, in real life is horrible. Saying, "Sorry, I just couldn't control my weapon, or I didn't know EVERYONE was going to fire." Isn't a valid excuse. They either need more training, or less firepower.
or to swith there mandatory made fire selector to semi-auto and not FULL auto
 

geldonyetich

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Timedraven 117 said:
you sure of that? 100's of 1000's of people have been shot since 1939 and i have not heard of a single case of lead poisining by a bullet yes lead is still used in bullets (sorry about that part) but not in high enough quantities to cause lead poisining
You shouldn't be using "how often I heard of something happening" as an indicator as to whether or not something is happening. I plugged in '+"lead poisoning" +deaths +2010 +bullets' into Google and came up with over 68,000 hits, so yeah it still happens just fine. Granted, it seems that we're more concerned with lead poisoning in wildlife than people.
 

Timedraven 117

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geldonyetich said:
Timedraven 117 said:
you sure of that? 100's of 1000's of people have been shot since 1939 and i have not heard of a single case of lead poisining by a bullet yes lead is still used in bullets (sorry about that part) but not in high enough quantities to cause lead poisining
You shouldn't be using "how often I heard of something happening" as an indicator as to whether or not something is happening. I plugged in '+"lead poisoning" +deaths +2010 +bullets' into Google and came up with over 68,000 hits, so yeah it still happens just fine. Granted, it seems that we're more concerned with lead poisoning in wildlife than people.
ohh okay sorry.