Poll: Gender recognition offence

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I don't have the power to validate or invalidate another person - nor should it be encumbent upon me to offer that validation. Their status as a man or woman for me is dependent solely on biology - not because I'm a pedant, but because I don't believe people should be defined by the circumstances of their birth. Being a 'man' or a 'woman' shouldn't be an impediment to self expression (though it often is, for both men and women). Implying that you can't be 'yourself' because of your gender is anathama to this belief and by transitioning your actually reinforcing those stereotypes, not challenging them. I can't support that.

Except you do have the power to validate and invalidate others, people do it all the time. The biology question is entirely a false narrative used exclusively invalidate people who do not conform to gender norms, it's never used anyway. It's not implying I can't be myself because my gender as the primary issue, it's that gender and sex phenotype are not the same thing. You mention emotional blackmail, but use it first against me with a guilt trip about transitioning. The fact of the matter is, gender needs to be biologically set in stone for the stereotypes to exist as they do in the first place.

This isn't an axiom and even if it was it's not a rational argument - it's emotional blackmail, an appeal to terrible consequences should I refuse to do as I'm asked. It denies an individual their independence of thought or expression through duress. It is, at base, a form of psychological bullying.

Which paradoxically is exactly what misgendering someone is in the first place, the problem is that it can trigger physical concequences, due to carelessness and callousness. Still misgendering a person intentionally is psychological bullying, it's one of the most common causes linked to trans suicides. Two wrongs don't make a right here, especially when the first wrong is something so easily avoided.

Again, I don't have the power to validate on invalidate other human beings. This reliance on external validation is at odds with the eternal message of empowerment which is self acceptance. Saying, in the words of Lady Gaga, "I'm born this way!". Is the trans message really "I was born wrong, but don't worry I'm fixed now - do you approve?"

Except that whole line of thought isn't realistic. People validate and invalidate each other on a daily basis. Bullying for example is heavily based on invalidating a person in some way. Also you seem to not understand what gender dysphoria is, how it works. It's not something that goes away, it's not a switch a trans person flips, it's not a choice, it's a mental mechanism where the brain says: "My body is wrong!" Transition is the only treatment that is known to work, you're basically demanding we go back to attempting to force trans folk to live as their birth sexes. Which is probably the other most common cause of trans suicides.

And again, this is just an appeal to consequences: you're trying to make out that I'm a terrible human being for holding to a view point of my own; for maintaining that biology is, while boring, objectively immutable and that the real goal should be about changing society's outdated view of gender and not forcing people to undergo painful, expensive and life-changing surgery in order to conform to it.

I'm not making you out to be a terrible person, my objective here is try to get you to understand gender dysphoria, which is caused by a biological system, the brain. The goal you're supporting here isn't about biology, or society, it's basically the same line as trans exclusionary radical feminists, which demands abolition of gender, but no answer on how to reach that goal. No trans person is ever forced to under go any gender reassignment surgery, not a single one, it's a self empowering choice used to treat gender dysphoria, and it works.

One of these solutions has lasting, pratical benefits which help everyone (by empowering everyone to feel free in their personal expression), the other helps a small minority, in the short term to better fit into a binary system that is niether workable nor humane.

That's the classic trans exclusionary radical feminist line right there. Calling the issue with the binary, disregarding all of the other biological factors because they're inconvenient to a narrative. The problem is that gender dysphoria does exist and it's a biological going on within a trans person. One of the "solutions" is really vague talk about abolishing gender that really doesn't make any sense, or presents an actual solution period. The other solution, transition, is generally what allows a trans person to live in their own body and function like other people. It's a solution to a problem suffered by a minority, forcing people to live with physical parts they cannot stand is not a humane, or a workable solution, because it leads to only one other option, eventual suicide for the trans person.

Edit:

When it comes to trans exclusionary radical feminism as a subject, it inherently supports the binary by attempting to enforce biological sex phenotypes. There is nothing there that changes, it stratifies the binary in stone. Also such ideology attempts to limit all self expression, especially in regards to gender, by stratifying the biological aspects. Really when it comes down to that trans exclusionary radical feminism isn't actually radical and it's a flying leap backwards, by confining people's gender expression and roles to biology.

 

[omega 616]

I was actually reading about this yesterday and all it does is wind me up.

I am 100% behind the whole be who you want to be, you want to change gender, cross dress or you are gay, bi or whatever flavour of ice cream you identify with then by all means I cannot find any reason to have any problem with you!

HOWEVER! If you start giving me shit for not for not using the correct pronoun, I will refer to you as something you REALLY wont like. I get the very strong feeling some (very much a minority) want to be super special snowflakes, he and she just isn't good enough they want "ey," "em," "eir," "eirs," and "eirself", or "zie," "zim," "zir," "zirs," and "zirself".

If you're phsyically a dude but wearing a dress and have long hair with chicken fillets in your bra, I'm referring to you as a she! That's not to hate on the people, it's to hate on the inanity! "I'm gender fluid" then dress and appear whatever gender you feel like!

I want to be inclusive but I can't shake the special snowflake feeling, if that makes me an asshole so be it but I'd rather be an honest asshole than a dishonest, two faced "nice guy"!

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I am 100% behind the whole be who you want to be, you want to change gender, cross dress or you are gay, bi or whatever flavour of ice cream you identify with then by all means I cannot find any reason to have any problem with you!

HOWEVER! If you start giving me shit for not for not using the correct pronoun, I will refer to you as something you REALLY wont like. I get the very strong feeling some (very much a minority) want to be super special snowflakes, he and she just isn't good enough they want "ey," "em," "eir," "eirs," and "eirself", or "zie," "zim," "zir," "zirs," and "zirself".

Well that's a good starting point for sure.

For the more unusual pronouns, some people just don't think they fit, it's not as much special snowflake, it's that they feel that strictly male and female pronouns don't work for them.

Also by giving you shit, do you mean if someone just snaps at you, or if they go off on a tirade? Because the former could just mean you're the person who happened to poke that sore one too times that particular day, the latter is of course the person being a total asshole about it. In the former case I mean someone who just spent all day getting misgendered might have a short fuse on the subject, but anyone reasonable will apologize for going off on you for your having made an innocent mistake.

If you're phsyically a dude but wearing a dress and have long hair with chicken fillets in your bra, I'm referring to you as a she! That's not to hate on the people, it's to hate on the inanity! "I'm gender fluid" then dress and appear whatever gender you feel like!

I want to be inclusive but I can't shake the special snowflake feeling, if that makes me an asshole so be it but I'd rather be an honest asshole than a dishonest, two faced "nice guy"!

That first line there... *shudders* That can't be sanitary...

Anyways gender fluid people generally present as the gender that they feel matches how they feel at the time. Gender neutral and agender folk are harder to read, especially if they're really androgynous. Although the ones I know seem to think it's all good fun to watch someone struggle to guess their gender.

Well you want to be inclusive, even if you have the "special snowflake" feeling, that's a lot better than people who just shout; "special snowflake tumblirna!" Granted I think the "special snowflake" types tend to be a very vocal and extra outrage prone minority of the larger trans community.

 

[omega 616]

I am 100% behind the whole be who you want to be, you want to change gender, cross dress or you are gay, bi or whatever flavour of ice cream you identify with then by all means I cannot find any reason to have any problem with you!

HOWEVER! If you start giving me shit for not for not using the correct pronoun, I will refer to you as something you REALLY wont like. I get the very strong feeling some (very much a minority) want to be super special snowflakes, he and she just isn't good enough they want "ey," "em," "eir," "eirs," and "eirself", or "zie," "zim," "zir," "zirs," and "zirself".

Well that's a good starting point for sure.

For the more unusual pronouns, some people just don't think they fit, it's not as much special snowflake, it's that they feel that strictly male and female pronouns don't work for them.

Also by giving you shit, do you mean if someone just snaps at you, or if they go off on a tirade? Because the former could just mean you're the person who happened to poke that sore one too times that particular day, the latter is of course the person being a total asshole about it. In the former case I mean someone who just spent all day getting misgendered might have a short fuse on the subject, but anyone reasonable will apologize for going off on you for your having made an innocent mistake.

If you're phsyically a dude but wearing a dress and have long hair with chicken fillets in your bra, I'm referring to you as a she! That's not to hate on the people, it's to hate on the inanity! "I'm gender fluid" then dress and appear whatever gender you feel like!

I want to be inclusive but I can't shake the special snowflake feeling, if that makes me an asshole so be it but I'd rather be an honest asshole than a dishonest, two faced "nice guy"!

That first line there... *shudders* That can't be sanitary...

Anyways gender fluid people generally present as the gender that they feel matches how they feel at the time. Gender neutral and agender folk are harder to read, especially if they're really androgynous. Although the ones I know seem to think it's all good fun to watch someone struggle to guess their gender.

Well you want to be inclusive, even if you have the "special snowflake" feeling, that's a lot better than people who just shout; "special snowflake tumblirna!" Granted I think the "special snowflake" types tend to be a very vocal and extra outrage prone minority of the larger trans community.

Except it wont be an innocent mistake. I will refer to people as male or female, dress how you want to be referred to ... dress as a guy and you're getting him and he, dress as a lady and you're getting she and her, nothing else to it. If you want one of these made up words to be applied to you then you're not going to like me 'cos I'm not going to utter them.

I get that some people do genuinely have these feelings, they have to ... I believe every possible permutation of the human psyche exists BUT I know 1 person who has a very desperate need to be accepted by everybody and is VERY easily influenced (I believe it's 'cos he was adopted) ... he has gone from imitating a hetero player who didn't smoke, to a gay introvert who smokes, to wanting to be a woman in the space of a year! So, I think a percentage of people are the special snowflakes, are the vocal ones, who are also the ones to fly off the handle easily 'cos they are the impersonators.

 

[JimB]

A lot of people here claiming that people who 'misgender' others deliberately are being dicks. It's not true. One person's perception of reality doesn't supercede another's right to view it differently - it's strange that we've become accustomed to shaming people who refuse to view reality under certain terms.

I feel it's hypocritical how often this kind of argument is assumed to apply only to one side of a conversation. If you, celeritas, get to declare that you have a right to declare a particular vision of reality and use it to refer to another person in insulting terms, then why do I not get to declare that I have a particular vision of reality (i.e., that choosing to ignore a person's identity in favor of declaring you know better who that person is is, in fact, a dick move) and refer to you by insulting terminology (i.e., calling you a dick)? These kinds of arguments read very much as if you want to argue that since reality is subjective, we must respect your subjective views, but you are exempt from respecting any other person's subjective views.

Sauce for the goose. If it's okay to label a transgender person by an identity they deny, then it's okay to label that first person by an identity he probably denies too; and as KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime points out regarding the relative dangers of these labels being applied (being physically assaulted versus be called a name), I don't feel that the guy getting called a dick has much right to complain.

 

[Politrukk]

I don't honestly believe anyone truly transgender could possibly be offended, the glory of being offended by anything and everything is a privilege of those who declare themselves transwhatever because it makes them a special little snowflake. Trans is the new emo which was the new goth ad nauseum.

Yeah, because people like to choose to be in a class that puts them at a far higher risk of being assaulted, raped, and murdered. You know because people like having that dark gremlin in their head, called gender dysphoria, which constantly assaults ones psyche, until transition. Then gender dysphoria will still pop up and ruin your day. Sure people like to go through that so they can then get verbally assaulted by people actively refuse to understand. This exact same thing was said about people choosing to be gay, it was just as much bullshit there as it is here.

Did you just state trans people get raped more often than others(and murdered).

Do you have statistics to back up that claim?

I'm sorry, I can imagine the abuse, but outright stating they get killed more often?

 

[9tailedflame]

For fuck sake. The whole concept of gender is inane anyway, and this is coming from a cis guy.
All it really is, is a few stereotypes people decided are important for some reason. It's like identifying as black if you eat fried chicken, or identifying as white if you drive a hybrid. it's really just offensive and absurd when you actually start to think about it.

Just be who you are. Let he and she just refer to your sex, not your gender, or do away with them entirely and replace it with a single new referential, i don't give a crap. It's frustrating watching these ridiculous discussions when it basically boils down to people arguing over how we should stereotype people.

 

[JimB]

It's frustrating watching these ridiculous discussions when it basically boils down to people arguing over how we should stereotype people.

I disagree in the strongest possible terms that respecting someone's self-chosen identity (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say the identity they self-advocate for) is stereotyping them. It's respecting their wishes. Humans are social animals and we require the context of our environment to establish ourselves against through millions of subtle comparisons and contrasts, and I don't think it's at all reasonable to ask us to abandon our mammalian social programming in order to keep you personally from getting irritated by a conversation that you are the one who made the active choice to participate in.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Except it wont be an innocent mistake. I will refer to people as male or female, dress how you want to be referred to ... dress as a guy and you're getting him and he, dress as a lady and you're getting she and her, nothing else to it. If you want one of these made up words to be applied to you then you're not going to like me 'cos I'm not going to utter them.

"Them", "they", "they're", and "their" are all perfectly workable singular gender neutral pronouns too, despite common belief otherwise. So if you're staunchly against the more exotic pronouns, you can still meet a person who wants gender neutral pronouns halfway that way. If they won't meet you halfway back, then they're not worth dealing with, unless your job depends on it.

I get that some people do genuinely have these feelings, they have to ... I believe every possible permutation of the human psyche exists BUT I know 1 person who has a very desperate need to be accepted by everybody and is VERY easily influenced (I believe it's 'cos he was adopted) ... he has gone from imitating a hetero player who didn't smoke, to a gay introvert who smokes, to wanting to be a woman in the space of a year! So, I think a percentage of people are the special snowflakes, are the vocal ones, who are also the ones to fly off the handle easily 'cos they are the impersonators.

First thing first. Many trans folk will put on a mask of being cisgender and heterosexual just to fit in, many come to assume they're gay, because they haven't yet identified what they're feeling. Then later they come out as trans, many don't even realize trans folk even exist, so they don't understand their own feelings, why everything feels so wrong. A lot of trans folk see being gay as making a half measure at addressing the issue, many may feel wrong for being trans, as it's still even less accepted than being gay. So your armchair psychological evaluation, on an isolated anecdote, doesn't make for good evidence that tons of people are being imitators, or fake trans.

Also what does picking up a smoking addiction have to do with anything? A lot of people make the mistake of having a cigarette, or a pack, for numerous reasons, then end up stuck still smoking because they're now addicted to nicotine. Tobacco addictions are really difficult to get rid of, they never truly go away either, leaving people with the urge to light up. Especially if one develops an physical fixation in smoking, like not knowing what to do with one's hands, or getting an oral fixation, which can make quitting almost impossible.

 

[9tailedflame]

It's frustrating watching these ridiculous discussions when it basically boils down to people arguing over how we should stereotype people.

I disagree in the strongest possible terms that respecting someone's self-chosen identity (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say the identity they self-advocate for) is stereotyping them. It's respecting their wishes. Humans are social animals and we require the context of our environment to establish ourselves against through millions of subtle comparisons and contrasts, and I don't think it's at all reasonable to ask us to abandon our mammalian social programming in order to keep you personally from getting irritated by a conversation that you are the one who made the active choice to participate in.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying people shouldn't refer to other people the way they want to be referred. I'm saying everyone is stereotyping themselves anytime they identify as a gender, regardless of whether they're cis or trans. The entire existence of gender is nothing more than sexual stereotyping (in the male/female sense, not the sexuality sense). People don't belong in little boxes, people are individuals, and in the end, without these absurd stereotypes, that assume you can't be woman without being skinny and wearing makeup, or you can't be man if you're not gigantic and play football, we'd be better off. We can still identify as things, but we should do so in a manner that isn't just stereotypes or profiling. For example, i love philly cheese steak. I am a philly cheese steak eater way before i'm a "man", and who even defines what a man or woman is? In the end, the terms man and woman, or any gender identity, is just adhering to some arbitrary set of social expectations and finding what box you fit in. We don't need gender or race to categorize ourselves. There's way more important qualities to people than that we can use to contextualize ourselves, like what we like or don't like, our dreams and desires, and stressing some false importance on stereotypes just feels like creating a problem.

 

[omega 616]

Except it wont be an innocent mistake. I will refer to people as male or female, dress how you want to be referred to ... dress as a guy and you're getting him and he, dress as a lady and you're getting she and her, nothing else to it. If you want one of these made up words to be applied to you then you're not going to like me 'cos I'm not going to utter them.

"Them", "they", "they're", and "their" are all perfectly workable singular gender neutral pronouns too, despite common belief otherwise. So if you're staunchly against the more exotic pronouns, you can still meet a person who wants gender neutral pronouns halfway that way. If they won't meet you halfway back, then they're not worth dealing with, unless your job depends on it.

I get that some people do genuinely have these feelings, they have to ... I believe every possible permutation of the human psyche exists BUT I know 1 person who has a very desperate need to be accepted by everybody and is VERY easily influenced (I believe it's 'cos he was adopted) ... he has gone from imitating a hetero player who didn't smoke, to a gay introvert who smokes, to wanting to be a woman in the space of a year! So, I think a percentage of people are the special snowflakes, are the vocal ones, who are also the ones to fly off the handle easily 'cos they are the impersonators.

First thing first. Many trans folk will put on a mask of being cisgender and heterosexual just to fit in, many come to assume they're gay, because they haven't yet identified what they're feeling. Then later they come out as trans, many don't even realize trans folk even exist, so they don't understand their own feelings, why everything feels so wrong. A lot of trans folk see being gay as making a half measure at addressing the issue, many may feel wrong for being trans, as it's still even less accepted than being gay. So your armchair psychological evaluation, on an isolated anecdote, doesn't make for good evidence that tons of people are being imitators, or fake trans.

Also what does picking up a smoking addiction have to do with anything? A lot of people make the mistake of having a cigarette, or a pack, for numerous reasons, then end up stuck still smoking because they're now addicted to nicotine. Tobacco addictions are really difficult to get rid of, they never truly go away either, leaving people with the urge to light up. Especially if one develops an physical fixation in smoking, like not knowing what to do with one's hands, or getting an oral fixation, which can make quitting almost impossible.

And yet calling a baby "it" is out of the question.

I would explain further but there isn't any point in doing so 'cos as you said it's anecdotal and kind of irrelevant to the OP.

However, where did I say "doesn't make for good evidence that tons of people are being imitators"? In fact I went very out of my way to say that it was a small percentage (I forgot to write "small" but still said percentage) that are the "fakers". Where did "tons" come from?

The smoking thing relates to my second line in the post.

This may be a huge issue for some people but quite frankly I am so "privileged" my blood is a white, hetro male (not to brag or anything like that, I just mean it's not my fight) and what strangers think or feel isn't my problem. I do want to be inclusive 'cos being excluded by anybody for/from anything for being you should have more serious consequences but I am not going to get up in arms to defend/fight for them. It's sucks they get treated badly but that's where my caring stops.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Did you just state trans people get raped more often than others(and murdered).

Do you have statistics to back up that claim?

I'm sorry, I can imagine the abuse, but outright stating they get killed more often?

The best mathematical numbers I've seen is that white trans men are at 10 times higher risk of being murdered, black trans women are at 40 times higher risk than the general population. This really shouldn't be surprising considering that over 45% of murder perpetrated against the LGBTQ community, according to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP).(via: GLAAD) [http://www.glaad.org/blog/violence-against-transgender-people-and-people-color-disproportionately-high-lgbtqh-murder-rate] Considering that homosexuals still face higher murder rates on average than heterosexuals, that there are fewer trans folk around by most estimates, and that we make up such a huge portion of murders, just in the LGBTQ community. It's not any stretch to say we're disproportionately just victims of murder.

The stats seem to have a tendency to vanish, which made any statistic search ridiculously difficult.

Also any stats on trans murders are going to be skewed due to misreporting of a victim's gender because they are trans. Rape is even harder to pin down, because while reports are increasing, it's still more likely that a trans person will be arrested on site for prostitution when attempting to report a rape. It's even more likely that the police will just laugh and do nothing. This leads to a systemic issue where such crimes are misreported and underreported because the victim is trans.

Here are a couple more sources that have some better math and some further sources each: Linky One [http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/] and Linky Two. [http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/08/24/are-transgender-people-over-a-thousand-times-more-likely-to-be-murdered-than-cisgender/]

 

[happyninja42]

The best mathematical numbers I've seen is that white trans men are at 10 times higher risk of being murdered, black trans women are at 40 times higher risk than the general population. This really shouldn't be surprising considering that over 45% of murder perpetrated against the LGBTQ community, according to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP).(via: GLAAD) [http://www.glaad.org/blog/violence-against-transgender-people-and-people-color-disproportionately-high-lgbtqh-murder-rate] Considering that homosexuals still face higher murder rates on average than heterosexuals, that there are fewer trans folk around by most estimates, and that we make up such a huge portion of murders, just in the LGBTQ community. It's not any stretch to say we're disproportionately just victims of murder.

Point of note. Having a higher percent chance of murder based on a demographic, doesn't necessarily mean that it is hate crime based. I'm not saying that's not the case, as I honestly don't know (personally I feel it likely is), but one statistic doesn't translate to the other statistic being the reason for it. I can't read your links based on the statistics as I'm at work, but do they actually state that these murders are hate crime based? Or just that "this group is the highest % murder group we see statistically"? Because again, there is a difference in "being murdered a lot" and "being murdered because of hate crimes."

Perhaps the increase murders are because, as some other studies suggest, the LGBTQ community gets pushed out by other people, and are thus in more dangerous environments, where murder in general is a more likely scenario. For example, someone being homeless because they were kicked out of their home for being gay. Now they are living in a dangerous situation, and get killed. Possibly not because they are gay, but simply because someone else was inclined to kill them for some form of personal gain. (their shoes, food, money, etc). While in that very specific example (and that's all it is, I'm not stating any accuracy on what the stats say), the reason they are on the street is due to bigotry, the murder itself might not necessarily be for the same reason.

Do your studies actually specify the number of confirmed hate crimes in those figures?

 

[Amir Kondori]

I'll call people whatever pronoun they want to be called, at least to their face. I don't want to offend people or invalidate their identity. It costs me so little to use one pronoun or another. I've never encountered anyone requesting this though.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

The best mathematical numbers I've seen is that white trans men are at 10 times higher risk of being murdered, black trans women are at 40 times higher risk than the general population. This really shouldn't be surprising considering that over 45% of murder perpetrated against the LGBTQ community, according to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP).(via: GLAAD) [http://www.glaad.org/blog/violence-against-transgender-people-and-people-color-disproportionately-high-lgbtqh-murder-rate] Considering that homosexuals still face higher murder rates on average than heterosexuals, that there are fewer trans folk around by most estimates, and that we make up such a huge portion of murders, just in the LGBTQ community. It's not any stretch to say we're disproportionately just victims of murder.

Point of note. Having a higher percent chance of murder based on a demographic, doesn't necessarily mean that it is hate crime based. I'm not saying that's not the case, as I honestly don't know (personally I feel it likely is), but one statistic doesn't translate to the other statistic being the reason for it. I can't read your links based on the statistics as I'm at work, but do they actually state that these murders are hate crime based? Or just that "this group is the highest % murder group we see statistically"? Because again, there is a difference in "being murdered a lot" and "being murdered because of hate crimes."

Perhaps the increase murders are because, as some other studies suggest, the LGBTQ community gets pushed out by other people, and are thus in more dangerous environments, where murder in general is a more likely scenario. For example, someone being homeless because they were kicked out of their home for being gay. Now they are living in a dangerous situation, and get killed. Possibly not because they are gay, but simply because someone else was inclined to kill them for some form of personal gain. (their shoes, food, money, etc). While in that very specific example (and that's all it is, I'm not stating any accuracy on what the stats say), the reason they are on the street is due to bigotry, the murder itself might not necessarily be for the same reason.

Do your studies actually specify the number of confirmed hate crimes in those figures?

I don't know where the x10 and x40 KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime used come from, but all the rest were from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, they deal specifically with hate crimes and only hate crimes. And actually the 45% is specifically against trans women, the number is higher (somewhere in the 70% range if I remember correctly) if you include all transgender people. The 2013 report said about 72% of specifically homocides are against trans women, and yet only 13% of survivors are trans, suggesting people try harder to kill trans people.

So there are a few basic forces working here that contribute in a compounding way to the overall numbers. First, as you have noted, trans people are more likely to be discriminated against, leading to them being forced into situations that are more likely to end in violence. Second, Trans people are disproportionately targeted for hate crimes. Third, those hate crimes are disproportionately brutal. Fourth, trans people have lower access to help after a violent incident (and are more likely to be further victimized if they choose to pursue help.)

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I don't know where the x10 and x40 KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime used come from, but all the rest were from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, they deal specifically with hate crimes and only hate crimes.

Second and third hand statistics partially, but also based on math from a more realistic analysis of the common "1 in 12 chance" incidents in murder over the course of our lives, made by the HRC. I scoured for the original source, but alas came up empty. I may have misquoted too.

Do your studies actually specify the number of confirmed hate crimes in those figures?

As stated these stats come from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, which deals exclusively with hate crime. As @ThatOtherGirl said, it's more than likely than the statistics are actually are even worse than reported than the reported statistics say, especially when you're dealing with a group that might avoid help due to further victimization.

Edit: I know it's hard to swallow, especially in light of how awful the statistics look, how hard it is to fathom that people can be so hateful. But if you look at the vitriol spewed directly at the trans community, people calling us things like; "rapists", "dangerously mentally ill", "pedophiles", "liars", "perverts", even things like "hellspawn", and even worse. That there are enough people making horrible unfounded accusations to put us in serious danger just for existing. People say bad words don't hurt, but really the big lies can be easy to believe and people aren't hard to incite to violent action, especially when they see a group as a direct threat.

This is especially considering that over a quarter of people believe homosexuality should be illegal, period: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx It's been getting better, but consider the fact that trans folk are even less accepted than lesbian, gay, and bisexual folk.

 

[Politrukk]

Did you just state trans people get raped more often than others(and murdered).

Do you have statistics to back up that claim?

I'm sorry, I can imagine the abuse, but outright stating they get killed more often?

The best mathematical numbers I've seen is that white trans men are at 10 times higher risk of being murdered, black trans women are at 40 times higher risk than the general population. This really shouldn't be surprising considering that over 45% of murder perpetrated against the LGBTQ community, according to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP).(via: GLAAD) [http://www.glaad.org/blog/violence-against-transgender-people-and-people-color-disproportionately-high-lgbtqh-murder-rate] Considering that homosexuals still face higher murder rates on average than heterosexuals, that there are fewer trans folk around by most estimates, and that we make up such a huge portion of murders, just in the LGBTQ community. It's not any stretch to say we're disproportionately just victims of murder.

The stats seem to have a tendency to vanish, which made any statistic search ridiculously difficult.

Also any stats on trans murders are going to be skewed due to misreporting of a victim's gender because they are trans. Rape is even harder to pin down, because while reports are increasing, it's still more likely that a trans person will be arrested on site for prostitution when attempting to report a rape. It's even more likely that the police will just laugh and do nothing. This leads to a systemic issue where such crimes are misreported and underreported because the victim is trans.

Here are a couple more sources that have some better math and some further sources each: Linky One [http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/] and Linky Two. [http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/08/24/are-transgender-people-over-a-thousand-times-more-likely-to-be-murdered-than-cisgender/]

Increased risk is a bit of a non-quotum for me, increased risk can only be quantified if there have been more reported cases(although I note you feel that there is misidentification in reporting crime for this particular group.)

I'll take a look at your links regardless though!

 

[Something Amyss]

All it really is, is a few stereotypes people decided are important for some reason. It's like identifying as black if you eat fried chicken, or identifying as white if you drive a hybrid. it's really just offensive and absurd when you actually start to think about it.

Okay, I know you're not talking about me specifically, but I'm curious, so humour me. What stereotypes do you think I'm looking for when I say I'm trans and wish to be called a woman?

This is especially of interest to me because I finally came out to a friend I've known for ages and ages today, and he was surprised because I seem like "a typical guy." I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, but I certainly seem to swing a lot more towards interests, hobbies, and behaviours that are coded masculine in society than the feminine ones. I could probably run off a pretty long list of "guy" things I do, while feminine interests probably take me less than the number of fingers I have to count. Gender stereotypes actually seem to work against me, and against a lot of the trans people I've known in my life. We run the spectrum, kinda like everyone else.

It seems what I get in terms of stereotypes is rather 100% external. People's expectations of me seem to colour their interpetation of the things I do. The difference in how I'm treated can be as small as say, using a masclunine-sounding username as opposed to an ambiguous or feminine sounding one. With that little information, I find that people read a lot into my identity and actions. And I bet this is true for a lot of people. Thanks to the nature of internet identity, not even necessarily trans people.

But if you could elaborate further on what stereotypes I am stereotyping myself with, I'd be interested. But it seems to me that if I wanted to stereotype myself based on gender/social expectations, I'd call myself a guy.

It's respecting their wishes.

This. And considering how ultimately little effort it requires, it seems an odd sticking point for there to be such an issue.

Do your studies actually specify the number of confirmed hate crimes in those figures?

Hate crimes are hard to nail down in part because trans panic is still a legal defense in 49 of 50 states. While it's not a frequently tried defense in court, there's a sort of well poisoning like "stand your ground" in that once the issue is brought up, it seems authorities are less likely out outright unlikely to look further. There have been a few instances to come across my desk where it took a concerted effort (essentially a PR campaign) to get police to even look into the death of a trans person or people. This is why I compare to to Stand Your Ground, because we get cases like the Trayvon Martin one where the cops simply don't collect evidence. And I don't want to veer too far off the current topic, so I'll leave it at that. The point is, it's hard to collect evidence if you're not looking for it.

This also used to be the standard for gays, and it's slowly changing.

"hellspawn"

Hey, for some of us, that's accurate!

Granted, it's an offensive stereotype that all trans people are children of one of the 13 rulers of Hell. Only the best are.

<.<

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Increased risk is a bit of a non-quotum for me, increased risk can only be quantified if there have been more reported cases(although I note you feel that there is misidentification in reporting crime for this particular group.)

I'll take a look at your links regardless though!

It's not just that it's increased risks, the statistics do quantify the numbers of murders reported. The problem is going to be how many are misreported because of both police and families insistently misgendering the victims. A lot of trans folk who get murdered don't get their deaths investigated often, "trans panic" is still a legal defense everywhere in the US except California. I kid you not that getting a statistic that's correct in regards to trans murder and rape rates, if not heavily understated, is essentially impossible. Too many crimes are just outright ignored in these instances, I means it even goes to harmless statistics, like just getting a good statistical grasp on the actual numbers of trans folk in the US. It's a bloody mess because so many won't even stand up to be counted, out of fear of mistreatment, let alone report being the victim of a crime.

 

[JimB]

It's respecting their wishes.

This. And considering how ultimately little effort it requires, it seems an odd sticking point for there to be such an issue.

I tend to blame this on total, absolute, toxic self-absorption. I think some people are so obsessed with themselves and with being indulged in as many ways as possible that they develop a weird, warping filter in their brains (kind of like Cartman's filter in the episode about fish dicks) so that when a trans person says, "This is who I am," what that kind of person actually hears is, "I demand the right to usurp your very brain and command it to say and think whatever I say!"

I'm not sure there's any useful application for that knowledge even if my suspicion is right, but I definitely believe there's a warped perspective going on.