Poll: How do you personally feel about the term cisgender?

[Lightknight]

So what you're telling me is that you believe there are people out there who here "non-trans" and don't think it's people with a matching sex/gender combination?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all ... I'm saying we already have a word that works better and is quicker to say. More meaning, descriptive, and easier to say. You have yet to prove to me why I shouldn't use it, however.

1. It's currently used as an insult and is viewed as such by non-transgendered individuals. You should not use it for the same reason you shouldn't use retarded for the mentally delayed even though it is more succinct.

2. Experts in the field already agree with me here and my intention for not using a term that largely serves to obfuscate the dialogue with laymen.

"Krista Scott-Dixon wrote in 2009: "I prefer the term non-trans to other options such as cissexual/cisgendered."[19] She holds this view because she believes the term "non-trans" is clearer to average people and will help normalize transgender individuals." (Wikipedia on Cisgender)

There doesn't really need to be anything else. It is unnecessarily confusing and is deemed as offensive. Should be case closed unless there some additional reasoning that you absolutely have to maintain such a term.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

1. It's currently used as an insult and is viewed as such by non-transgendered individuals. You should not use it for the same reason you shouldn't use retarded for the mentally delayed even though it is more succinct.

Forgive me, but that's garbage. Me and my friends use it occasionally. No pejorative. False equivalence is false.

2. Experts in the field already agree with me here and my intention for not using a term that largely serves to obfuscate the dialogue with laymen.

Then by all means, tell me how it 'obfuscates' meaning when you have yet to even bother to show me how my criticism of 'non-trans' was bad? 'Non-trans' is obfuscatory and misleading in general. As compared to using a pair of words that directly describes either having/had, or not having/had, gender dysphoria.

"Krista Scott-Dixon wrote in 2009: "I prefer the term non-trans to other options such as cissexual/cisgendered."[19] She holds this view because she believes the term "non-trans" is clearer to average people and will help normalize transgender individuals." (Wikipedia on Cisgender)

That's great ... I don't agree with her. And maybe, just maybe, the people I use it most with already know the meaning of the word? It's a useful word in context, not day to day but then a word need only be useful in context to still be useful. It also has no pejorative basis.

Which is the biggest tell in your argument, as you don't seem to know any trans people to make this as an actual basis for dismissing it on terms of 'understanding'. Also, as this poll would suggest, meaning is not lost on the great majority of people.

There doesn't really need to be anything else. It is unnecessarily confusing and is deemed as offensive. Should be case closed unless there some additional reasoning that you absolutely have to maintain such a term.

Only that you haven't actually said anything about why I should stop using cis. In fact, some of the points are disprovable by the poll on this thread. The other point is garbage. It's not a pejorative, I don't use it as a pejorative, I've never met ANYONE offline who sees it as such. Which is funny, given my associations.

 

[Someone Depressing]

So many people just think of cisgender as the "norm" and don't know that trans people exist or that there's a word for "those weird heshes" that it's mostly irrelevant.

I don't think it's an insulting or bad word - then again, not many people have a good sense of humour. or thick skin. or the human capacity for rational thought. or 6 fingers on each hand - but few people know that it exists or that trans needs a counterpart, that it becomes useless.

But, why not let it exist? Many people don't know that they're homo sapiens or have a thing called a corpus collusum, but we have a term for that.

 

[Olas]

It's a term that is really only necessary when differentiating oneself from transgender people. Kinda like how "muggle" is only a useful word in the Harry Potter universe.

Not having a word for people who aren't transgendered would be kinda awkward in an in-depth conversation about gender identity, but I don't think people should need to use it in day to day conversation.

 

[Gauntlets28]

I just don't think that most people, apart from those in the LGBTAQetc. community and those who mingle with them actually have the slightest idea what the word means, which kind of is problematic when it's generally those outside of that community that SHOULD know it, because it refers to them. It kind of reminds me of the word "muggle", cos muggles don't know anything about being referred to as that.
Apart from that, it seems a bit dumb to consider changing it, but it's still a horrible sounding word. Sounds like "cyst" or "cistern".

 

[Lightknight]

So many people just think of cisgender as the "norm" and don't know that trans people exist or that there's a word for "those weird heshes" that it's mostly irrelevant.

I don't think it's an insulting or bad word - then again, not many people have a good sense of humour. or thick skin. or the human capacity for rational thought. or 6 fingers on each hand - but few people know that it exists or that trans needs a counterpart, that it becomes useless.

But, why not let it exist? Many people don't know that they're homo sapiens or have a thing called a corpus collusum, but we have a term for that.

It isn't that the word exists, it's that it has begun to be used as an insult and is seen as such. The most popular being the whole "Cis Scum" usage.

If transgendered individuals largely found the term "transgendered" offensive we would find another way to label the condition.

But apparently that sentiment only goes one way.

 

[DementedSheep]

For all the people saying it pointless in everyday life because most people aren't trans and/or won't know what it means, who is asking for it to be used in everyday life? we have plenty of terms that only exist to provide clarity in certain contexts or in academic discussions about a particular topic.

 

[Kameburger]

-snip-

I hate to be blunt about this, but the truth is the term exists simply because there those who take offense to the opposite of transgender, being "normal" and while that's understandable, all the baggage that comes with the words creation is bundled in there with this word. I think the world itself is quite alright. Why not have a term for that after all, and if anything its easier.

In that sense when I feel like someone would call me cisgender, what I hear is not "person who identifies with the gender I was born with" but instead "person who doesn't understand the struggle of transgendered individuals and will never feel included in our circle." And while it is perfectly reasonable to say that this is how a trans-person might feel when cisgendered person uses the word normal to describe themselves frankly whether more justified or not, you are ascribing a label to a group of people who haven't ever had this label ascribed to them before.

But I respect your effort, you really seem to be working hard to try and bridge this gap in understanding and through your efforts I've thought about these issues quite a bit. So please feel free to correct me if you feel I am off the mark.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

It isn't that the word exists, it's that it has begun to be used as an insult and is seen as such. The most popular being the whole "Cis Scum" usage.

Where?

Where has the word beeing used as a pejorative?

'Cis scum' is not cis being used as a pejorative. If I wrote 'die straight scum', can I then argue that straight is a dirty word and you people should scrap it?

You keep saying this is fact? Where?

If transgendered individuals largely found the term "transgendered" offensive we would find another way to label the condition.

But apparently that sentiment only goes one way.

Or maybe we just have thicker skins...

You know what's funny? THe term has been around pertaining to cisgender persons for 25 years. Nobody had a problem with it. It seems like a handful of people using it to criticize people who don't feel gender dysphoria, specifically ... people like you try to explain away how our silencing of a word that has no pejorative value is 'noble'.

It's odd how people seem to have so much energy invested to try to invalidate the means to easily describe a state of people not having gender dyphoria ... by people who specifically have fuck all to do with trans people. I suddenly feel like using it more, if anything.

(Edit) Also ... Why exactly do people, like you (specifically given I remember a few of your posts), jump up and down on people in the past as being 'language police' then justify your argument against the use of a harmless, useful tool of metaphysical examination? So ... you know. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that...

Look, I like the few people I know that are transgendered. But if I had to feel like I was walking on eggshells every time I was around them then I would find our times together taxing. As is, I just call them by their name and no one is being put out or hurt. I don't entirely get why this is as big of a deal as you're making it seem. I especially don't think that other people should force me to use their words when the individuals aren't there. If someone is in a forest and calls a transgendered woman a he does the transgendered woman still cry?

Hypocrisy it seems to me. Why exactly is someone unjustified to use a word like 'cis' when you can't even be bothered to use self-elected pronouns? Seems like double standards to me. Why exactly does it hurt you if I use cisgender as per the dictionary use between me and my friends?

 

[Bocaj2000]

It should only be used in a scientific context. Tumblrites using it in a casual context to discriminate against others is and embarrassment.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Well the way my life is going, I may as well have no gender myself... Anyway.

It's a fair term, it apart from the physical side it does coincide with gender specific traits well. The word - as a matter of fact - seems standard to me

In the case of trans, I suppose my only hang up is whether or not to announce it, because doing so or not is, um, problematic. :¬/

 

[AldUK]

This website used to be about gaming and nerdy culture. For few years it was a bookmark I would visit every day to read articles, watch videos and look at intelligent people talking about their hobbies.

Now, it's not a bookmarked site, but out of... I don't know, nostalgia I suppose, I still come back and check what's going on here from time to time. And what do I see? Very little new content on the front page besides gossip and conspiracy theories, only Shamus still writing quality articles.

The worst thing though? This crap. The Escapist is becoming more and more like Tumblr every single day. With thread after thread about 'gender identity' or Gamergate (which nobody else cares about anymore) and it's just tiresome. The world is not full of people changing their genders around, but you'd think it was totally normal if you visited the forums here. I don't care if you're male, female or a swamp monster, what do you think about The Witcher 3? What about Sony? Hey there's a new indie game on Steam, anyone played it?

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about this stuff, it's obviously an important part of a small section of people's lives. But is The Escapist forums really the place for it?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

This website used to be about gaming and nerdy culture. For few years it was a bookmark I would visit every day to read articles, watch videos and look at intelligent people talking about their hobbies.

Now, it's not a bookmarked site, but out of... I don't know, nostalgia I suppose, I still come back and check what's going on here from time to time. And what do I see? Very little new content on the front page besides gossip and conspiracy theories, only Shamus still writing quality articles.

The worst thing though? This crap. The Escapist is becoming more and more like Tumblr every single day. With thread after thread about 'gender identity' or Gamergate (which nobody else cares about anymore) and it's just tiresome. The world is not full of people changing their genders around, but you'd think it was totally normal if you visited the forums here. I don't care if you're male, female or a swamp monster, what do you think about The Witcher 3? What about Sony? Hey there's a new indie game on Steam, anyone played it?

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about this stuff, it's obviously an important part of a small section of people's lives. But is The Escapist forums really the place for it?

Considering that the Escapist has a large community of people drawn together by gaming, not to mention the things you mention there are sub forums for, plus that this is the Off-topic Discussion forum... Yes I think there is a place for this.

A better question is why are you complaining about what goes on in the Off-Topic Discussion forum? It's simple to avoid these discussions because there are topic names, not only that but there are sub-forums where these topics won't really come up.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about this stuff, it's obviously an important part of a small section of people's lives. But is The Escapist forums really the place for it?

In your opinion, what should people be discussing in the off-topic section? By definition, it can't be what the Escapist is about, because then it wouldn't be off-topic.

 

[Lightknight]

So many people just think of cisgender as the "norm" and don't know that trans people exist or that there's a word for "those weird heshes" that it's mostly irrelevant.

I don't think it's an insulting or bad word - then again, not many people have a good sense of humour. or thick skin. or the human capacity for rational thought. or 6 fingers on each hand - but few people know that it exists or that trans needs a counterpart, that it becomes useless.

But, why not let it exist? Many people don't know that they're homo sapiens or have a thing called a corpus collusum, but we have a term for that.

It isn't that the word exists, it's that it has begun to be used as an insult and is seen as such. The most popular being the whole "Cis Scum" usage.

If transgendered individuals largely found the term "transgendered" offensive we would find another way to label the condition.

But apparently that sentiment only goes one way.

That's a bit like a sadist arguing for the right to hurt people, then claiming that denying them impinges on their right to free expression. Sure it does, but the reality is that you have to balance the right to the sadist's free expression, with the right to non-consenting people to be left alone.

? What I was saying is that if transgendered people found the term "transgender" offensive, then we would try to accommodate their concerns with another term that they do not find offensive. For example, they found Gender Identity Disorder offensive so it was changed to Gender Dysphoria even though it's still a disorder.

That's simply the right thing to do rather than keep calling people retards or fags or whatever other inflammatory label people insist on.

Trying to equivocate between "Cis" and "Cis Scum", as somehow being the basis for some grievous injury is silly. Trying expressing distress that your argument isn't given the same weight as Trans people not wanting to be called "Abnormal" by comparison is obvious and likewise, silly. Trying to assume (or undermine) the victim role by truly transparent rhetorical games is... sad.

It doesn't have to be given the same gravitas. Slurs are bad. Labels that are found offensive by the labeled are bad. One doesn't have to be as grievous as something else to still warrant reconsidering the use of it. The medical community changes terms for that reason all the time.

I'm not sure who or what you think you're protecting in this scenario. You aren't protecting transgendered people by defending cis terminology. Not unless they just want a slur to exist as a mechanism to describe how hurtful labels can feel but in a society that has literally changed terminology just for them due to a feeling of distress over them then why is it just to enforce them against everyone else?

...Well come on, you have to see the humor, right? If not for the internet two things would be true:

1.) You'd probably never have heard this term outside of academic circles.
2.) You'd have no platform to complain on.

Except for that psych degree and having heard it in person before seeing it online, sure. [/massiveeyeroll]

 

[Lightknight]

It isn't that the word exists, it's that it has begun to be used as an insult and is seen as such. The most popular being the whole "Cis Scum" usage.

Where?

Where has the word beeing used as a pejorative?

'Cis scum' is not cis being used as a pejorative. If I wrote 'die straight scum', can I then argue that straight is a dirty word and you people should scrap it?

You keep saying this is fact? Where?

Look, I'm going to assume this is a misunderstanding and that you really aren't aware of the entire "Die Cis Scum" meme. So I'll help you out:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/die-cis-scum

It is associated with individuals who enact physical and lethal violence against transpeople.

It is also becoming increasingly more commonly used as a slur against people who are generally anti-trans. Now, while I agree that anti-trans people deserve a slur and anyone committing violence deserves prison time, it doesn't change the fact that it's THIS word being used.

Essentially, the term is becoming synonymous with hate and violence. Like being called a KKK member.

If transgendered individuals largely found the term "transgendered" offensive we would find another way to label the condition.

But apparently that sentiment only goes one way.

Or maybe we just have thicker skins...

Oh, is that why Gender Identity Disorder is now considered taboo and replaced by Gender Dysphoria despite still being an official disorder (which rightfully entitles surgical resolution to the problem)?

You don't have thicker skin, you have the same thickness of skin.

You know what's funny? THe term has been around pertaining to cisgender persons for 25 years. Nobody had a problem with it. It seems like a handful of people using it to criticize people who don't feel gender dysphoria, specifically ... people like you try to explain away how our silencing of a word that has no pejorative value is 'noble'.

How long were the terms fag or retard around?

Now, Cisgender hasn't been around for 25 years. Cissexual has. Cissexual is actually the term that is specific to a person born with a gender identity matching their sex.

cissexual as "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned" (Wiki comparing Cisgender with Cissexual)

Cisgender is actually a term merely pertaining to those who do not identify as transgendered

Hypocrisy it seems to me. Why exactly is someone unjustified to use a word like 'cis' when you can't even be bothered to use self-elected pronouns? Seems like double standards to me. Why exactly does it hurt you if I use cisgender as per the dictionary use between me and my friends?

Not using pronouns is different than using slurs or specifically USING the pronouns which are offensive.

Not using words isn't a slur. What I'm doing also isn't offensive. "Oh no, he uses the person's name instead of pronouns out of fear that he'll slip up and use the wrong one and get terrible backlash for it... what a terrible person... Die Cis Scum".

Do you get offended when people say your name in conversation instead of using a pronoun whenever possible? I recommend making the case for why your name is a slur or derogatory term.

 

[Lightknight]

This website used to be about gaming and nerdy culture. For few years it was a bookmark I would visit every day to read articles, watch videos and look at intelligent people talking about their hobbies.

Now, it's not a bookmarked site, but out of... I don't know, nostalgia I suppose, I still come back and check what's going on here from time to time. And what do I see? Very little new content on the front page besides gossip and conspiracy theories, only Shamus still writing quality articles.

The worst thing though? This crap. The Escapist is becoming more and more like Tumblr every single day. With thread after thread about 'gender identity' or Gamergate (which nobody else cares about anymore) and it's just tiresome. The world is not full of people changing their genders around, but you'd think it was totally normal if you visited the forums here. I don't care if you're male, female or a swamp monster, what do you think about The Witcher 3? What about Sony? Hey there's a new indie game on Steam, anyone played it?

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about this stuff, it's obviously an important part of a small section of people's lives. But is The Escapist forums really the place for it?

Considering that the Escapist has a large community of people drawn together by gaming, not to mention the things you mention there are sub forums for, plus that this is the Off-topic Discussion forum... Yes I think there is a place for this.

A better question is why are you complaining about what goes on in the Off-Topic Discussion forum? It's simple to avoid these discussions because there are topic names, not only that but there are sub-forums where these topics won't really come up.

There is also somewhat of a vibrant community of transpeople here. Forum discussions are intended to be reflective of the community and transpeople are certainly members of our community.

 

[Mastemat]

It's hatespeech now.
Plain and simple.

Worse, it's not been turned into hatespeech by an antiparty (for example feminist: feminazi), but has become akin to "******" but for nontransgender people... made so BY transgender people.
Which as a G in the LGBT community...
I find it reprehensible to have done such a thing.

It was a meaningless word to begin with, and to give it meaning with hate has been just reprehensible.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

-Snip-

You seem like a very smart and reasonable individual, but I really can't agree with a lot of what you say. I think you should work on gender pronouns as they come in handy compared to naming friends/family/acquaintances, because if two people with the same name are together with you it'll become difficult just to use names. Also I still think cisgender is the easiest way to separate out trans from non-trans with a single word, and the word it self is not inherently bad.

It's hatespeech now.
Plain and simple.

Worse, it's not been turned into hatespeech by an antiparty (for example feminist: feminazi), but has become akin to "******" but for nontransgender people... made so BY transgender people.
Which as a G in the LGBT community...
I find it reprehensible to have done such a thing.

It was a meaningless word to begin with, and to give it meaning with hate has been just reprehensible.

It's used in conjunction with hate speech, hate speech I've never ever heard a trans person use, and every trans person I know uses it as a clinical term for people who are born with their gender identity matching their birth sex. Also the word was coined around a decade or so ago, when it was coined it had the meaning of a person who has a gender identity matching their birth sex, the pejorative sense it's been used in conjunction with (See: "Dis cis scum") is a tumblrite, and twitter thing, and seems to be used by social justice types and extremists. Also you're being divisive with a group that you associate with as part of your larger community, so... I'm wondering what exactly you're on about, especially as a trans person, though I don't take the accusation personally.

 

[Lightknight]

-Snip-

You seem like a very smart and reasonable individual, but I really can't agree with a lot of what you say. I think you should work on gender pronouns as they come in handy compared to naming friends/family/acquaintances, because if two people with the same name are together with you it'll become difficult just to use names.

You also seem like an intelligent and reasonable individual and I appreciate it. The conversation I've been having on the matter has been helping me come to better terms with it. Like the fact that these are my friends so they deserve the right to impose on me. The people I'm frustrated with, the ones that used pronoun usage as a weapon to beat me with? Those aren't my friends.

So yeah, it's something I'm going to try to work on. But as I said in the other thread, my foremost concern is that any error on my part would do harm to these people and simply avoiding the pronouns seems to benefit everyone. Form not hurting their feelings, to allowing me not to have to walk on eggshells around friends, to avoiding crazy confrontations with others who think I'm doing it on purpose.

Also I still think cisgender is the easiest way to separate out trans from non-trans with a single word,

As I said before, fag is much easier to say than homosexual and retard is a lot easier to say than developmentally delayed. Lot more letters and vowels and whatnot. Look, we use different terms all the time when one term is found to be offensive. This is just another one of those scenarios. For transgendered people we use Gender Dysphoria now instead of Gender Identity Disorder at their request, and rightfully so. Why can't we expect the same courtesy?

and the word it self is not inherently bad.

Again, no word is inherently bad. There is not a single word that has ever existed that is magically evil no matter what.

The word is bad because it has become offensive due to it being used heavily in offensive scenarios such as the "Die Cis Scum" meme in which Cis individuals are framed automatically as the enemy of transpeople as bigots and murderers and worthy of death.

We have a long history of clinical words that have become insults. Cretins, retards, and all manner of sort. So this really doesn't work as a viable argument regarding the term itself.

It's hatespeech now.
Plain and simple.

Worse, it's not been turned into hatespeech by an antiparty (for example feminist: feminazi), but has become akin to "******" but for nontransgender people... made so BY transgender people.
Which as a G in the LGBT community...
I find it reprehensible to have done such a thing.

It was a meaningless word to begin with, and to give it meaning with hate has been just reprehensible.

It's used in conjunction with hate speech, hate speech I've never ever heard a trans person use, and every trans person I know uses it as a clinical term for people who are born with their gender identity matching their birth sex. Also the word was coined around a decade or so ago, when it was coined it had the meaning of a person who has a gender identity matching their birth sex, the pejorative sense it's been used in conjunction with (See: "Dis cis scum") is a tumblrite, and twitter thing, and seems to be used by social justice types and extremists. Also you're being divisive with a group that you associate with as part of your larger community, so... I'm wondering what exactly you're on about, especially as a trans person, though I don't take the accusation personally.

First off, Cissexual is the clinical term regarding gender and sex matching. Cisgender is the term regarding being Non-trans as opposed to Trans. That's just a minor error I've seen repeated frequently here.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/die-cis-scum

How about having the start of the term with the hate speech tattooed on a trans-person's arm and creating a full-blown internet meme on the matter? How about the number of groups supporting the term and demanding that anyone who takes offense with it do more work in preventing violence against trans people (I don't know about you but I've never had one instance of letting violence happen that I could stop or any instance were I've supported any kind of violence or advocacy of violence). That's only the most popular one. Beyond that the abuse of Cis privileged to trivialize opinions and discussions even when legitimate strikes a particular nerve. Regardless, does it matter who actually turned it into an insult? It doesn't matter if it was trans people or SJW bloggers or whatever. All that matters is that's what it's associated with now.

It does not help the situation that "Cis" simply sounds like an insult too. But we've already been over that.

So consider the idea that the term is now synonymous with trans haters. Why in the world would I want to be associated with that? Wouldn't you take that offensively if someone decided that trans was a term for people that hated the Jews?

Also, it's not fair of you claim that the poster is being divisive with their community just by admitting that this term is offensive. That's a shaming tactic that only serves to harm open discourse and I hope its use goes away or itself begins to be shamed as the abusive ad hominem it is.