Just so we're clear, are you saying that acknowledging the existence of people in between and outside the two genders is a bad thing? The poll does take into account the typical two genders as well.WOPR said:
Poll: How many straight birth-gendered females are on the Escapist?
- Thread starter UnloadedDevice
- Start date
" no desires or intentions to transition to another one."
But, I have thought about what it would like to be a woman. If we get multiple lives, I'd like to come back as a woman. Does that mean I void being a "normal"? Because I have thought about "transitioning" on some level?
But, I have thought about what it would like to be a woman. If we get multiple lives, I'd like to come back as a woman. Does that mean I void being a "normal"? Because I have thought about "transitioning" on some level?
You mean when the site was more friendly to LGBT women?WOPR said:
Are you sure you don't mean some other site?
You say I am missing the point, but then you go on to present no counterpoint and even defeat your only solitary argument.Dizchu said:
The fact that trans people are at a societal disadventage compared to nontrans people is irrefutable, but that doesn't make it more or less right to write "I hate cis people". You're living in some kind of fantasyland if you think making sweeping, blanket statements like those are ever going to be okay.
The protagonist of the comic provided no context to her situation on social media. That is a fact.
The fact that she didn't naturally means that everyone reading her status is devoid of that context; that they don't know what happened to her. Even if they did, the response would like have been pretty similar.
It is very easy to say people aren't being supportive when you are insulting all those people prior to wanting their support.
What do you think the response would have been if she said "I was assaulted by two assholes today, fuck those bigot pieces of shit".
It contains swearing and is certainly more aggressive that "I hate cis people today", but I am very certain the response would have been overwhelming sympathy and support. I am sure you would agree with that aswell.
Saying shit like "I hate cis/black/white/hispanic/asian/whateverthefuck people", even with context, is hella fucking shady; and is frankly incredibly stupid, if you are part of a marginalized class trying to integrate into that same "x people" society. You just push them away and alienate yourself further.
And you're living in some kind of fantasy land if you think that saying "I hate cis people" carries a comparable amount of weight to "I hate black people". Transgender people are fully aware that they can do very little to harm cisgender people, and sometimes they (wrongly) assume that cisgender people are aware of this too.s0denone said:
Yeah the character in that comic is being a bit of an asshole. But it'd be a huge stretch to compare that sort of behaviour to racism or homophobia. Only the most delusional teenager with a Tumblr blog legitimately hates all cisgender people. People that hate transgender people or gay people or black people? They're everywhere and they have influence.
If a transgender person is frustrated enough to say "I hate cisgender people" I don't think they'll value the support of people with such thin skin.
Sure, but understand why they say "I hate cis people today". Cisgender people make up most of humanity and society universally caters to them. Not only do they lack the disadvantage of gender dysphoria but there is also widespread ignorance of what that even entails. To many of them being transgender is a mental disorder, a sexual fetish, a cry for attention or the gender equivalent of "otherkin". They insist that they're "normal" and have constant validation by society that they are "normal".
People who say "I hate cis people today" are not going to go on killing sprees. They are highly unlikely to even ruin someone's day, because when a cisgender person hears "I hate cis people today" they can respond "you're an asshole" and walk away.
Now this is misleading because you're equating many different things of highly varying severity. Even "I hate white people" which many will claim doesn't count as "real prejudice" (it does) carries a lot more weight than "I hate cis people" just because non-white people are so numerous and hold significantly more societal influence than transgender people.
Okay. But isn't the overarching point here that even if transgendered people don't have the same pull as, for example, white supremacist, they need to realise they are acting like them?Dizchu said:
A KKK member saying "I hate all black people" is different from a transgender saying "I hate all cis people" in the power behind those words, maybe, but it is still acting the same.
If you remove the historical context and just look at the saying, they are similar. Let me pose you a very easy question:
Does saying "I hate black people" make assimilation and integration into a black-dominated society easier or harder?
Does saying "I hate cis people" make assimilation and integration into a cis-dominated society easier or harder?
Is it conducive to your cause (as well as your mental health) to push away supportive friends and family by lobbying them into the same box as people who harass you?
Are predujiced generalizations a good thing?
See I am not equating transgendered generalizations with black power ones, or whatever the fuck - hell, even the intent might be comparatively benign; but that does not change the fact that it simply isn't helpful to ANYONE to utter shit like that, least of all the person uttering it.
Saying "But cis people can just reply with "you're an asshole and walk away"" sure they can - but isn't that the whole point? You alienate yourself from whatever race, creed or religion you are bashing. You are removing that demographic as a potential ally.
When the KKK member says "I hate black people" do you think he is expecting black people to support him?
When the transgendered person says "I hate cis people" why would they then expect those same people to support them?
I do understand what you are saying. I was mainly questioning the connotations and phraseology made by the OP. That one can't be "birth-gendered" if you have any thoughts or desires about being another sex.NXNW said:
They are not though. They're not claiming that transgendered people are superior (on the contrary, as I said most transgender people want to be cisgendered) nor would they implement any methods of discrimination if they had the means. They're simply (and yes, not very eloquently) voicing their frustration at a world that rejects them.s0denone said:
Two things. First of all the people saying "I hate black people" do not wish to integrate into a black-dominated society. Secondly transgender people don't get to decide how easy it is to assimilate into a cis-dominated society (which is every society, by the way). Statements such as "I hate cis people today" come as a result of being openly rejected from society by people who have no idea what struggles transgender people are going through.
The sad thing is, most of the time transgender people have to walk on eggshells in order to gain the "approval" of cisgender people. Such behaviour is extremely exhausting but it's how "good trans people" must act. They are under constant scrutiny and when they decide enough's enough and vent their frustrations, suddenly that becomes representative of their whole group.
Any friends or family that actually give a shit would be able to see beyond such frustrated language. It's like when a woman comes out of an abusive relationship and says "I hate men". Sure it's a dumb thing to say but anyone that really cared for her well-being wound reach out to her and let her vent her frustrations. Now I admit that a man coming out of such a relationship and saying "I hate women" would be met with a disproportionate amount of hostility, but that's a whole different discussion.
People say dumb things when they're upset and unless they're public figures who should be more responsible for the things they write (see the assholes that run Buzzfeed), they should be cut some slack.
Of course not, but it's not like these people are saying "wow all cisgender people are exactly the same they're all terrible, I'm glad I'm not one of them".
So? People aren't perfect, they succumb to frustration and anger. I've had a couple of mental breakdowns where I lashed out and refused to talk to anyone and I fully admit that it was quite harmful behaviour. But I also understand why I did it, what drove me to that point. Transgender people deal with a lot of stress on a daily basis and not everyone deals with stress in a particularly great way.
The point I made here is that a cisgender person can just walk away unaffected, maybe they'll have a negative opinion of a person but it won't ruin their day. If a transgender person deals with transphobia, especially in public it can absolutely devastate them. Their identity is scrutinised, they're personally insulted, they are stigmatised. They can't just "walk away" and if they can it means their skin has to be ridiculously thick (or they have to be sufficiently emotionally numb). Keep in mind that statistically, transgender people are at a much higher risk of suicide than most other groups.
The KKK are an organisation with a reputation and a lot of blood on their hands. Even in modern America, black people still have to deal with stigmatisation. When a member of the Ku Kluk Klan says "I hate black people" there is a significant amount of weight and credibility behind those words.
The people that take "I hate cis people" seriously are usually taking a frustrated rant too personally. Take the woman who says "I hate men" that I brought up earlier. If one of her male friends tries to comfort her she's unlikely to say "fuck off you disgusting male", in fact it may do her a lot of good. Similarly if a cisgender person tries to comfort a trans person who lost control and had a rant about cis people, unless that trans person is a colossal douchebag they'd probably appreciate the support too.
Conversely, if a black person approached a member of the KKK after a racist statement and tried to relate with them... well that won't be pretty.
By the way I have argued in the past that transgender people using this language is dumb and needlessly antagonistic so don't think I don't understand where you're coming from. However I wouldn't go as far as to compare... "cisphobia" (ugh) with racism or any legitimate bigotry.
Aight, let me do a proper reply.
But yes, I agree. I think what you describe is the case for almost every marginalized group. It is a sad state of affairs, but it is better to acknowledge and then act accordingly, than the alternative. The issue also isn't particularly that they cannot, for example, "vent their frustration", it is just that it has to be done in a way that the non-marginalized, non-transgender can understand and relate to.
I have been mugged by immigrants, as an example. I didn't go to facebook or twitter and write "I hate all immigrants" for two reasons:
1) Because I don't.
2) See 1)
The difference here is less of censorship and more of simply behaving like adult people. Let me stress again: I understand that there are struggles that I frankly DO NOT understand, but acting out in extremely immature and (however superficially or disingenuous) prejudiced ways DOES NOT help ANYONE.
You have enough of listening to shit like that at some point and then you start expressing a need for respect. An expectation that is a totally fair one.
Like I've said previously in the thread: If someone in my family wrote like that on twitter, I would contact them as soon as I was able and then attempt to talk them out of writing bullshit like that, ESPECIALLY if they didn't actually mean it; because I wouldn't stand for listening to shit like that for even one second.
You can say you are to expect people to "vent" after certain event, but that doesn't mean they should act like petulent children. I already gave the example of using less prejudice but a lot more fighting words, and you agree the result would have been overwhelming support.
I think "I hate cis people today" is a statement that should never be uttered by anyone who want to be taken seriously on anything, whereas saying things like "I fucking hate piece of shit ignorant motherfuckers who assault me for just being transgender. Fuck you, worthless bigot dickheads" is totally fine.
One is also easily identifiable as simple frustration, the latter, whereas the former is in a grey-area because the tone is neutral and it seems deliberate. Sure you may not "expect" a person to really mean it; but if they don't mean it, why express it? If they are not a child, then there is no excuse.
I think the "I hate men" vs "I hate women" is an interesting discussion also, but, like you say, is not the topic of this thread.
I appreciate a good "venting"; especially with context, but you can vent in many ways; and writing "I hate all x people" is not the way of going about it.
Isn't that what you're saying here?
"Because cisgender people are the overwhelming majority, you are allowed to publicly bash them, because they are the majority. They shouldn't care about your bashing, as you prove no "threat" to them anyway."
It sounds an awful lot like the "blacks can't be racist" rhetoric. If I have you all wrong and you in fact agree that blacks can't be racist, then disregard this point and just tell me, so we can drop the whole discussion outright ;-)
Maybe the same thing happened to Jane Twat that happened to me. She gets clubbed in the back of the head while leaving town late one saturday night, and they steal her wallet, phone and jacket, and then she ends up spending the following day in a hospital bed. She'd probably be pretty pissed. Let's say that while she is lying on the ground bleeding and see them run away, they are black people instead of immigrants as they were in my case.
Would it be okay for her to write "I hate all black people"? It would just be "venting" after all, right?
That is a fair bit of difference, assuming its true, but the sweeping, blanket statements are still very, very similar.Dizchu said:
And see, I actually understand and empathize with that. My issue is that you cannot make such statements publicly and expect anything good to come from it. The "punchline" of the comic that started this is that the transwomans friends responded poorly to the "I hate cis people today" comment instead of with support.
Walk on eggshells how?
But yes, I agree. I think what you describe is the case for almost every marginalized group. It is a sad state of affairs, but it is better to acknowledge and then act accordingly, than the alternative. The issue also isn't particularly that they cannot, for example, "vent their frustration", it is just that it has to be done in a way that the non-marginalized, non-transgender can understand and relate to.
I have been mugged by immigrants, as an example. I didn't go to facebook or twitter and write "I hate all immigrants" for two reasons:
1) Because I don't.
2) See 1)
The difference here is less of censorship and more of simply behaving like adult people. Let me stress again: I understand that there are struggles that I frankly DO NOT understand, but acting out in extremely immature and (however superficially or disingenuous) prejudiced ways DOES NOT help ANYONE.
Sure a familymember ought to be able to sort the bull from the shit, but what if the person writes something similar every other week? Every week? Every other day? Every day?
You have enough of listening to shit like that at some point and then you start expressing a need for respect. An expectation that is a totally fair one.
Like I've said previously in the thread: If someone in my family wrote like that on twitter, I would contact them as soon as I was able and then attempt to talk them out of writing bullshit like that, ESPECIALLY if they didn't actually mean it; because I wouldn't stand for listening to shit like that for even one second.
You can say you are to expect people to "vent" after certain event, but that doesn't mean they should act like petulent children. I already gave the example of using less prejudice but a lot more fighting words, and you agree the result would have been overwhelming support.
I think "I hate cis people today" is a statement that should never be uttered by anyone who want to be taken seriously on anything, whereas saying things like "I fucking hate piece of shit ignorant motherfuckers who assault me for just being transgender. Fuck you, worthless bigot dickheads" is totally fine.
One is also easily identifiable as simple frustration, the latter, whereas the former is in a grey-area because the tone is neutral and it seems deliberate. Sure you may not "expect" a person to really mean it; but if they don't mean it, why express it? If they are not a child, then there is no excuse.
I think the "I hate men" vs "I hate women" is an interesting discussion also, but, like you say, is not the topic of this thread.
But then why utter it at all, yeah? Because it can easily be understood that way, as well as a myriad others.
Pretty similar to earlier, I understand and empathize with that, but there are lines you just don't cross, if you expect to be taken seriously outside of fringe society.
I appreciate a good "venting"; especially with context, but you can vent in many ways; and writing "I hate all x people" is not the way of going about it.
While I respect your point here, it is absolutely nonsensical. You agree (I think, correct me if I am wrong) that feminism has been highjacked for some more nefarious causes lately, and that there is a sentiment that blacks cannot be racist, just like women can't be sexist.
Isn't that what you're saying here?
"Because cisgender people are the overwhelming majority, you are allowed to publicly bash them, because they are the majority. They shouldn't care about your bashing, as you prove no "threat" to them anyway."
It sounds an awful lot like the "blacks can't be racist" rhetoric. If I have you all wrong and you in fact agree that blacks can't be racist, then disregard this point and just tell me, so we can drop the whole discussion outright ;-)
That is fair because of the historical context, but what if it just some Jane Twat average white woman who says it?
Maybe the same thing happened to Jane Twat that happened to me. She gets clubbed in the back of the head while leaving town late one saturday night, and they steal her wallet, phone and jacket, and then she ends up spending the following day in a hospital bed. She'd probably be pretty pissed. Let's say that while she is lying on the ground bleeding and see them run away, they are black people instead of immigrants as they were in my case.
Would it be okay for her to write "I hate all black people"? It would just be "venting" after all, right?
Depending on the woman they may not be receptive to a male shoulder to cry out on, at all. I've offered my support in a few similar situations with mixed results.
Hah, that is fair enough and very true.
I agree that those things aren't wholly comparable, but saying that cispeople should just "take it", because it is supposed to be an evident expression of frutration is very misguided, I'd say - and the exact same rhetoric used against any perceived majority or empowered group.
I was in the middle of a long response when I realised that the main point of contention is the concept of "bashing" cisgender people.s0denone said:
Outside of the most insular and toxic internet communities, I doubt "cis-bashing" even exists. To me it makes as much sense as amputees bashing able-bodied people. In an ideal world, they would be able-bodied. Unlike misogynists, misandrists, racists and homophobes, transgender people don't believe that they are "superior". They may believe that they have a certain valuable insight that most cisgender people lack, but generally transgender people feel like they are the "inferior" group which is what exacerbates their gender dysphoria to such extremes that make them highly at risk of suicide.
I appreciate the discussion and you do come off as genuine in your inquiries, but I think what it all boils down to is how legitimate you believe such antagonistic statements can be. We both agree that it's immature and unnecessary, but I just can't compare it to legitimate forms of prejudice where one group believes they are better than another.
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on transgendered people to any extent, but I have watched several documentaries now and tried reading whatever interesting stuff that I can find. Transgendered people clearly have struggles and issues that I simply will never understand, just like I think the statistics of them committing self-harm, sometimes culminating in suicide, is staggering and sad.Dizchu said:
Them (rightfully) feeling marginalized has nothing to do with what I am saying though. Nothing.
But my point isn't that the statements are the same, but that they are similarly antagonistic.
My point is that it does not help the transgender cause for equality and rights to push people away. The fact that you easily agree that it is immature and unnecessary is great, it means you're a rationally thinking human being. The issue isn't you or people like you, it is the people who immediately took issue with me pointing out how immature and unnecessary that statement was. The ones who champion and agree with the punchline of the comic. The issue is that those same commenters are, however well-intentioned and otherwise likeable, incredibly aggressive and prejudiced in their discussions.
That is the problem. That people actually unironically disagree that the punchline of the comic is a mistake.
As an aside, I am still curious how you can say it is impossible to be "cisphobic"(if that is the word?) because they have power and the overwhelming majority of influence, whereas you agree black people can be racist. How does that compute?
You say it is because transgendered people feel "inferior" whereas black people don't, but isn't that the whole issue? Black people are made to feel as second grade citizens sometimes. Just like transgendered people.
How can one be prejudice but not the other?
"Incredibly aggressive and prejudiced"? You seem to be committed to using a very strange yardstick to judge aggression and prejudice.s0denone said:
Yes, there's a lot of aggression and prejudice at play. It's just not coming from the trans people who are victims of aggression and prejudice.
I am not sure if you're implying that I am an aggressive and prejudiced debater myself, or if you mean to point out that the people I am talking about certainly are not. Regardless, that is your opinion and that is fine. My experiences just tell me otherwise, which is why I wrote what I did. I have told a couple of those same debaters what I think aswell. In general I find arguing with people who place themselves on the moral highground, and label me as the "bad guy" before we even start, extremely tiring. It is a thoroughly uninviting way of engaging others and won't help anyone.thaluikhain said:
I feel as though that kind of behaviour would most likely stem from frustrations with lack of acceptance, not to mention outright harassment that these people have to go through in their daily lives. I understand and sympathize with that, but I still want to be respected as a human being rather than being stigmatized because of the colour of my skin or my sexual persuasion. I find that extremely troubling and not something I want to partake in.
The reason it is relevant to this particular discussion, is that it is exactly the same that is happening in that comic that spurred my response here.
Having an antagonistic perspective, or at least appearing to have one, will only breed contempt.
Cis people aren't actually being stigmatised for being cis in any way, however trans people very definitely are for being trans.s0denone said:
That's the tone argument, and it's wrong for a great number of reasons, despite making some sort of logical sense. One of them is that it doesn't work.s0denone said:
Anyone who looks at the oppression that trans people face, and then becomes upset that the feelings of some cis people might be hurt by some generalisation someone they've never heard of has made on the net is not going to support trans rights. Anyone that demands that people fighting for equality change their language to suit them is not going to be someone that's going to help in that fight.
You said:
This is completely wrong. Now, I can fully understand why you would say this, it's just common sense. Only, it's saying that the majority gets to decide how a marginalised groups gets to feel and act about being marginalised by the majority. In of itself, this is marginalising them.s0denone said:
Cis people that get upset that trans people are angry about their treatment by cis people are going to get upset at something or other. There is always, always some reason why people fighting for their rights, or even just existing, are doing it wrong and should be condemned. There is no level of playing nice and caring more about the feelings of the privileged group than the problems of the marginalised one that will make privileged people want to care. They either choose to make it about them and have a tantrum, or they realise that not everything need be about themselves all the time, and there is next to nothing that anyone else can do about this.
Do I get stigmatized in real life? Absolutely not. But I frequently get asked or called out in debates on certain websites, such as this one. And I have to continually read arguments that do stigmatized people who are similar to myself, a lot.thaluikhain said:
I don't know about anything having specific names. "Tone argument"? But fair enough, I'll take your word for it. I'm assuming that your "doesn't work" is supposed to be justified by the following:
But see, that such a misguided statement and frankly extremely insulting to read. I pride myself on speaking out on equal rights for everyone whenever I can, and I do. I try to help and aid where I can and be the least possible judgmental that I can be.
Me saying "I'd rather you didn't say you hate all cis people" has nothing to do with overlooking the apparent lack of equality for transgendered people, and the mere fact that you would even seek to imply that is so massively offensive I don't know what to say on that, frankly. At least I know that people like you won't make me less of an "ally" in matters like these, regardless of how much you try.
I agree that transgendered people lack equality and acceptance. I am just stating that there are ways of going about it. I accept "venting" as much as the next guy, but again, there are ways of doing it and ways of not doing it. "Fuck bigoted pieces of shit" are words I can respect and understand, "Fuck cis people" is not.
It has nothing to do with "changing your language" as a means of censorship or entitlement, and more to do with basic decency, common sense and acting like an adult.
???
I am not the thought or feel police, but unless you genuinely "hate cis people" then you shouldn't be writing it anywhere, and if you do infact genuinely "hate cis people", then you cannot possibly expect to ever be accepted in mainstream society at any point, and for good reason.
Given I reply as I read, this is making me fucking infuriated.
How in the flying fuck are you getting this from anything I am writing!? FUCK! This is just absolutely maddening.
Are you being serious?!
EDIT: Having to deal with this kind of absolutely mind-melting post is what I talk about when I say "aggressive and prejudiced debating". You are riling me up to no end by writing what you are, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPLY AT ALL.
Well I wouldn't go as far to say that it's impossible for anyone to be "cisphobic", but if someone were genuinely cisphobic they'd have a fear and distrust of almost every human. At that point I wouldn't call it "cisphobia", I'd call it a fear of people in general.s0denone said:
Black people are made to feel inferior by social hierarchies that place other races above them. The nature of gender dysphoria is that the people that have it have this inherent feeling of inferiority because they don't feel genuinely "male" or "female" like everyone else. It is possible to overcome this feeling and the feeling is largely reinforced by society, but generally it's a feeling that there is something "wrong" that may never be fixed.
Well, since straight women are obviously women. And lesbians are obviously women (unless we're counting Harry Partridge parodies), and Trans-women call themselves women (typically) how am I being exclusive? Unless of course you don't think non-cishet women are women.EternallyBored said:
Edit:
I don't see any inclusion of hermaphrodites or any of their varients. Just a bunch of [current year] malarkey hiding behind a shield of political correctness.PainInTheAssInternet said:
No, I meant this site, back when it had more than just Zero Punctuation, a far more active forum, people who weren't terrified of the banhammer because Bob Chipman's feels we're forum rule yet... Ahh those were the days, back when we were able to openly discuss just about anything so long as we didn't excessively use a particular 6 letter slur for homosexuals, or post links to porn-gamesSomething Amyss said:
[HEADING=2]Mod Voice[/HEADING]s0denone said:
s0denone, I understand completely you obviously have strong feelings about the topic, but if you're feeling wound up by what another user has posted, take a breather and come back to the thread later, or give it a pass. It's not worth getting aggressive towards other users for.
Stay calm and don't let this escalate into something it does not need to be.
Thanks!