Poll: Jim Sterling Calls Out New Assassin's Creed (for racism/sexism?)

[Lightknight]

Why the regression all of a sudden, I wonder.

Historical accuracy. That was a black female in Lousiana. Tell me how a black person of any race would have been able to easily blend into something like historical London or where-ever this game takes place.

Additionally, praising a game for making a character that is diverse is one thing, but criticizing a company because you don't agree with the race or gender they went with is being racist/sexist yourself. Especially with a game that prides itself on some sort of tenable historical possibility. I mean, how common were people of other races in the French Revolution? Would they have made good assassins and been able to disappear in the crowds? Isn't it hypothetically just as racist to include a race that simply doesn't make sense just for the sake of race as it is to not include diversity where it's perfectly reasonable?

Equality doesn't mean history and facts don't exist.

 

[Kathinka]

look, equality and justice are cool and all, but you can take it too far.

cramming a token female / non-white character in a game when it doesn't fit the historical-ish setting and the atmosphere, simply for the sake of variety and/or catering to the social justice crowd? naw, please don't.

 

[evenest]

Game developers should make sure they gather every single token in the minority set eh?

Rozalial, let's be fair here. I am not suggesting that they create a multitude of assassins to represent the ethnic diversity of 18-C France. I am saying that it would be nice if they didn't copy/paste the same guy four times and give each one a different color palate to make them "different."

I was also speaking to someone's comment earlier in the thread that suggested that all Frenchmen looked similar.

Is it wrong to strive for something more? Something different?

As for the "historical" accuracy and people being able to "blend in" as some have suggested. Is France populated entirely by men that a woman couldn't blend in? Additionally, I return to my early comment to suggest there were people of African decent moving about in France, not to mention groups from all over Europe who lent their genetic diversity to the area.

I dislike this constant use of the word "token." It is a pejorative word used to cast honest critism in a negative light. It is not asking for a token gesture to suggest that the developers might include one woman in a cast of four men. Women aren't a small percentage of human beings, they make up 51% of the people on the planet. It might even be suggested that in times of war and unrest, as seen during the French Revolution that there might be an even larger percentage of women than men, what all with the killing and such.

 

[EvilRoy]

Can't we just learn to take a joke?

I actually thought that was funny, which indicates it was a joke. Nothing to get serious about, just move on. I'm not sure how to answer the poll now. Justified? Wuh?

I'm pretty sure it was just a joke. He's been on record several times saying he just doesn't give a shit about Assassin's Creed anymore. And they do look exactly the same.

Also he hasn't worked at Dtoid for over six months.

I guess it's time for the Internet lesson of the day! Here's a link to explain Poe's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

It could be argued that it was indicated that it was a joke, but this is the Internet. No one is on the same page.

On the subject: It's possible, in fact "probable", that Ubisoft will add a few other models in the game for the Co-op gameplay.

Honestly, to me, this just speaks of how bad these conversations are becoming. It has come to the point where we are so used to people calling this sexist or that racist that the idea that it is a joke crosses very few minds.

I mean, Poe's law is supposed to be with regards to extremism, but the statement wasn't even that extreme. It has just become completely normal for this kind of accusation to be leveled against a thing that exists, because it exists, and therefore equally normal to assume the accusation is serious.

 

[Lightknight]

I'm no history professional, what was the racial demographic in the french revolution?

And racism doesn't exist in a single action, population sample or picture. Racism only always purely exists in context, and there is no hint of any racist context in there.

It's lazy to just do 4 times the same character, sure, but not racist.

These are four different actual players. In their universe aren't they all that character too, Arnaud Dorian?

 

[Icehearted]

Can't we just learn to take a joke?

It's kind of tough to do that when Jim has taken to holding Anita Sarkeesian up as a voice or reason while calling her naysayers crybabies, unless there's some Kaufman level trolling going on that has totally outwitted a lot of us. Being overly PC kind of falls in line with this mode of thinking, despite Jim's usually very fair and rational statements on things.

 

[Gamer87]

look, equality and justice are cool and all, but you can take it too far.

cramming a token female / non-white character in a game when it doesn't fit the historical-ish setting and the atmosphere, simply for the sake of variety and/or catering to the social justice crowd? naw, please don't.

Why would it not fit to have more female assiassins? There might not have been female soldiers, but if a daughter were born into one of the assassin families she would also receive training and become as skilled as any male assassin.

Being female would even be a huge advantage as fewer people would suspect a woman in this time period. So please tell me again why it would be unrealistic with more female assassins in this setting.

 

[the December King]

...

I wonder if they are all brothers?

Nevermind, I said nothing. But I can't get into the whole "lazy character design" or "why not have one of them be a mexican or an inuit" band wagons. They are assassins, I assume, and they need to blend in to a particular melieux, at least to some extent, maybe?

Yea... but why is none of them a woman then? Roughly half of all Parisiens were and are women, I presume?


The following is not directed at you, so please don't take it the wrong way, but, thinking of the Sexy Female Armor thread, I just love it how people invoke realism as reason for why we can't have women or minority characters in this or that setting in one instance, yet couldn't care less about realism when it comes to them getting their skimpy female armors.

Oh sure, a woman assassin would be fine, I guess. No argument there. It really comes down to the story, and how it's told. And I don't know the story to this game, so I'm gonna reserve judgement until it is explained to me/I play it.

And as to the sexy armor thread, well, I did already share my opinion in that, for what it's worth.

 

[Lightknight]

Can't we just learn to take a joke?

I actually thought that was funny, which indicates it was a joke. Nothing to get serious about, just move on. I'm not sure how to answer the poll now. Justified? Wuh?

I'm pretty sure it was just a joke. He's been on record several times saying he just doesn't give a shit about Assassin's Creed anymore. And they do look exactly the same.

Also he hasn't worked at Dtoid for over six months.

I guess it's time for the Internet lesson of the day! Here's a link to explain Poe's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

It could be argued that it was indicated that it was a joke, but this is the Internet. No one is on the same page.

On the subject: It's possible, in fact "probable", that Ubisoft will add a few other models in the game for the Co-op gameplay.

Honestly, to me, this just speaks of how bad these conversations are becoming. It has come to the point where we are so used to people calling this sexist or that racist that the idea that it is a joke crosses very few minds.

I mean, Poe's law is supposed to be with regards to extremism, but the statement wasn't even that extreme. It has just become completely normal for this kind of accusation to be leveled against a thing that exists, because it exists, and therefore equally normal to assume the accusation is serious.

Poe's law has evolved to basically equate to jest or sarcasm being inevitably misunderstood without clear indication given. That it was originally only applied to fundamentalism did not give it the breadth needed to be widely included elsewhere. It's a nice example of relatively rapid linguistic drift.

 

[Aerosteam]

It's possible, in fact "probable", that Ubisoft will add a few other models in the game for the Co-op gameplay.

True, true. Looking at the multiplayer of previous AC games the cast was quite diverse.

...

Hang on...

Spoiler

Shite.

Something else: Apparently it's impossible to keep threads like this contained in one page. *sigh*

 

[CloudAtlas]

Excuse the rant, but am I really being unreasonable here?

No, you're not. Even by the gaming industry's not exactly overly high standards, a cast where all four protagonists are white men is a joke.

And you gotta love all those people invoking historical accuracy here. As if there were no women in France during the French revolution. As if Paris wasn't the capital of a big colonial empire and thus might, just might have attracted people from all corners of the earth. I'm laughing my ass of here really.

 

[VoidOfOne]

This criticism seems really out of line to me...

Nah, it seems fine. Well, I did, and still do, have the same criticism. I get the whole context of the game and the setting, though. And I can understand if Jim was making a joke, and I can understand if he wasn't. But it's not some huge condemnation of the game. He didn't say the game was horrible. But he's definitely known for noticing these things.

But as such, everyone here is entitled to their own opinion. And so is Jim. And as such everyone has the right to critique it.

 

[evenest]

Can't we just learn to take a joke?

I actually thought that was funny, which indicates it was a joke. Nothing to get serious about, just move on. I'm not sure how to answer the poll now. Justified? Wuh?

I'm pretty sure it was just a joke. He's been on record several times saying he just doesn't give a shit about Assassin's Creed anymore. And they do look exactly the same.

Also he hasn't worked at Dtoid for over six months.

I guess it's time for the Internet lesson of the day! Here's a link to explain Poe's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

It could be argued that it was indicated that it was a joke, but this is the Internet. No one is on the same page.

On the subject: It's possible, in fact "probable", that Ubisoft will add a few other models in the game for the Co-op gameplay.

Honestly, to me, this just speaks of how bad these conversations are becoming. It has come to the point where we are so used to people calling this sexist or that racist that the idea that it is a joke crosses very few minds.

I mean, Poe's law is supposed to be with regards to extremism, but the statement wasn't even that extreme. It has just become completely normal for this kind of accusation to be leveled against a thing that exists, because it exists, and therefore equally normal to assume the accusation is serious.

Poe's law has evolved to basically equate to jest or sarcasm being inevitably misunderstood without clear indication given. That it was originally only applied to fundamentalism did not give it the breadth needed to be widely included elsewhere. It's a nice example of relatively rapid linguistic drift.

A joke can be a joke and still function to start a discussion of a topic. Writing/English instructors have used Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" to great effect for beginning a discussion on rhetoric and composition.

 

[Thyunda]

This is Assassin's Creed. Ubisoft are well aware of what they're capable of in terms of diversity and I don't think this is enough to go off. I think the first question is 'Who are these men?'. Second will be 'Which side are they on?'. Third will naturally ask who their supporting characters are. Fourth will regard the villains.


Maybe it's another bait and switch and they're actually Templars. Come to think of it, the French Revolution was not at all the Assassins' way, so maybe there's actually more to this than anybody is giving it credit for.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Why the regression all of a sudden, I wonder.

Historical accuracy. That was a black female in Lousiana. Tell me how a black person of any race would have been able to easily blend into something like historical London or where-ever this game takes place.

Additionally, praising a game for making a character that is diverse is one thing, but criticizing a company because you don't agree with the race or gender they went with is being racist/sexist yourself. Especially with a game that prides itself on some sort of tenable historical possibility. I mean, how common were people of other races in the French Revolution? Would they have made good assassins and been able to disappear in the crowds? Isn't it hypothetically just as racist to include a race that simply doesn't make sense just for the sake of race as it is to not include diversity where it's perfectly reasonable?

Equality doesn't mean history and facts don't exist.

I mainly wanted to point to the fact that she's, well, a she. But even people of colour weren't strange in late-18th century Paris, especially folk of mixed race. Even famous black people were found in their society. Hell, there was even a regiment of all-black Revolutionary fighters. France had quite the history of colonialism, after all. If anything, considering the relationship between the values of the French Revolution and slavery, not representing people of colour is ignoring quite an important part. Not to mention the role of women.

As for your argument that the critique we're giving is sexist by itself makes little sense, it would mean we could give no critique at all. We're arguing for more equal representation based on certain historical data; women and people of colour deserve a larger voice in videogames, and considering the state of Paris during the French Revolution, having four playable protagonists and having them all be bearded white blokes is a missed opportunity.

Especially because it's not just for race or gender's sake; liberté, égalité, fraternité, we're in the French Revolution after all. Women and people of colour played a substantial part in the French Revolution.

And let's be honest, when was the last time Ubisoft gave a damn about their characters blending in? Their character designs haven't been inconspicuous since, well, ever. I remember laughing at how Altaïr is supposed to be totally incognito whilst walking with some monks. That was hilariously ridiculous considering his bristling armoury.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

More just mocking Ubisoft's shitty lazy-ass character design then calling them racist. The lack of female characters is a bit more eye-raising but again I'll chalk it up to lack of creativity.

Honestly I'm more sick of straight/white/male protags just because of how fucking boring they are. Particularly Ubisoft who hasn't written a protagonist worth a damn since Ezio.

 

[wAriot]

Especially because it's not just for race or gender's sake; liberté, égalité, fraternité. Women and people of colour played a substantial part in the French Revolution.

What.
There were a few thousands of black people, at most, in 18th century France. With very few exceptions, they didn't have any major role in the French Revolution (note: outside of the colonies, where they obviously played a big part in their own liberation. There were many black governors and generals).
Women are a different thing, of course. Clearly they were still seen as "inferior" to men, but they were taking steps for some equality. Hell, "Liberty" was represented as a woman (which could have been used by Ubi to do something cool).

 

[CloudAtlas]

Excuse the rant, but am I really being unreasonable here?

No, you're not. Even by the gaming industry's not exactly overly high standards, a cast where all four protagonists are white men is a joke.

how's it "a joke" ?

in a modern US societal context only roughly 10% of the population are black (and only 5% are gay).

meaning if it was an accurate "demographic sample" (which btw is arguable not something that should be imposed on a creative narrative anyway) you'd need 9 white characters to statistically justify the inclusion of 1 black person.

the truth is both people of colour (and gay people) are actually hugely over represented in popular media.

now i'm not against that but to ignore the real (and regularly statistically measured and recorded) nature of reality and espouse a view that suggests reality is something drastically different...is actually pretty fucked up...

So by your own logic... why aren't 50% of all characters female? But this is not the point at all. The question is: Why wouldn't you make some of your characters female /non-white? Would it make quite a few people happy? Yes. Would it hurt anyone? No. Or aren't 2 or 3 out 4 characters who are white men enough for white men (with a lack of empathy) to identify with?

It is a joke in at least three ways. From a storytelling point of view, a more diverse cast is just more interesting, and gender and ethnicity just happen to be two pretty signficiant dimensions here. From a visual point of view, designing four characters who look pretty much the same is just boring. From a marketing/inclusion point of view it is a joke, because if you made one of four characters dark skinned and one female (for example), you would appeal to a broader audience without putting anyone off. Well, no one except actual racists and misogynist anyways... and I'm sure no one in here would admit to being a racist or misogynist, no?

 

[Winnosh]

I've got a question. What if they all look the same but have different clothing is because They are just the same character. Yes the game has a Co op campaign, but I highly doubt that Ubisoft is going to have each of the Co Op characters be completely separate and fully fleshed out characters. They're most likely just Your Assasin from your game going in in someone else's game like they did in Fable.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Especially because it's not just for race or gender's sake; liberté, égalité, fraternité. Women and people of colour played a substantial part in the French Revolution.

What.
There were a few thousands of black people, at most, in 18th century France. With very few exceptions, they didn't have any major role in the French Revolution (note: outside of the colonies, where they obviously played a big part in their own liberation. There were many black governors and generals).
Women are a different thing, of course. Clearly they were still seen as "inferior" to men, but they were taking steps for some equality. Hell, "Liberty" was represented as a woman (which could have been used by Ubi to do something cool).

Substantial might be pushing it then, but I would say that there's enough reason to include it, considering it's an interesting part of history that's often overlooked and it plays right into the values of the French Revolution. Who knew for instance about that all-coloured independent legion? It's an interesting opportunity to show us sides of the French Revolution we don't know about.

But yeah, the representation of women is indeed more substantial. Not including a black protagonist can be argued for, not including a female one is dropping the ball I'd say. It's about a storytelling perspective y'know.