Poll: Katana and Rapier: An Objective Comparison

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ardias014

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EternallyBored said:
Yes the term rapier covers a lot of territory so this is a bit pointless, I'm simply engaging in it because a lot of people are taking a massive crap on the katana. Also a few points:
1)What era of Japanese combat are we talking about: Sengoku or Meiji? In the sengoku period guns were used sparingly and the battles where they were used to great effect were ones in which the enemy charged head long into matchlocks that were behind barricades.
2)A pike is not equivalent to a naginata. Pikes require very little skill to use while naginatas do. Pikes are also alot longer.
3)Lamellar armor used by samurai was not made out of bamboo. It was made out of leather.
4)Horse archery was initially the main form of samurai combat, but this changed after the Gempei War. As time went on katanas became less of a second weapon. This is especially so during the reign of the Tokugawa when there were no large scale wars. Also the reason why so few people used them as their main weapon is because they were expensive. It is a lot easier to get a spear of a bow than a sword.
 

Kristoffer Bailey

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I think in the end its the skill and quick-thinking of the weapons wielder that decides the battle. I am not entirely sure what the stratagem of the katana-wielder would be, but as somebody who has had some experience fencing I think I would be more concerned about what will happen if I block his strike, and what will happen if my strike isn't immediately debilitating. A katana is a pretty sturdy and powerful sword from what I know, while the rapier is more.."Finesse" I guess you could say. Rather than blocking the strike, which would probably break your wrist, your best bet would be to catch the blade with a parry that it might push it off target. I'm not really sure how to explain that other than instead of bracing for the impact you'd want to pivot your guard at the point of contact between both blades so that the rapier is essentially guiding the climax of the katana's swing away from its target. At that point the katana doesn't have time to recover back to its area of guard before a quick jab can be given by the rapier. OOOR what if instead of preparing to parry the katana the rapier wielder goes straight for the attack to begin with. If the stab connects is it going to manage to cancel the katana-wielders swing?
 

Mick Beard

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ardias014 said:
Mick Beard said:
blah blah blah katanas can cut thru tanks and can even cut meteorites in half blah blah blah its true I seen it on the internets blah blah blah


Katanas to be honest are not great weapons. they were great for Japanese style fighting against other Japanese people.

even the Japanese preferred to use spears and Naginatas over a katana.


and the way a katana is made isn't some magical thing only the Japanese did.

Germanic tribes, romans, celts, Saxons, Vikings all did this with their weapons 1000 years before the Japanese did.. why did they stop making these magical folded and pattern welded blades you ask?

well they stop because they developed STEEL and any STEEL is better then folded iron!
They preferred to use spears because they were cheap and good at distance and most samurai even if they used another weapon like a naginata, they kept another blade in case it broke.

Also the important part is not that they folded the blade, it is how they did it. Instead of having a uniform blade, the cutting edge of the blade was made up of brittle, but very sharp steel. The rest of it is very durable. The main weakness of the katana's material is that it has to be maintained constantly. This is because the oil used in maintaining it also makes crap grow on the blade.

ok..... the style of quenching that they use to produce the harder edge of the blade and softer spine of the blade was also done by Europeans before they worked out how to make steel. it happens by it self due to the reason of the edge of the blade is always thinner then the spine so it cools quicker and hardens. What the Japanese did different is by also using the line between the hard edge and soft spine (its called the hamon)as a decoration and even came up with a way to manipulate how it looks (with clay). the only difference is they were still doing this around 700 years after the Europeans worked out how to make Steel.

so the hardness and softness isn't anything special its just how it is done with Iron blades to make them better.


the oil used to maintain Japanese blades is Clove oil mixed with mineral oil. now I have swords here that have been coated in this oil for well over 15years and there is nothing growing on them. Clove oil is a natural analgaesic and antiseptic oil so nothing will grow on it.

and all weapons weather made out of iron or Steel need to be oiled or waxed to make sure they don't rust.


also not every samurai had a katana. but yes spears are cheaper and a lot more effective. that is why they are the universal weapon of choice of all battle fields until the invention of the gun
 

EternallyBored

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ardias014 said:
EternallyBored said:
Yes the term rapier covers a lot of territory so this is a bit pointless, I'm simply engaging in it because a lot of people are taking a massive crap on the katana. Also a few points:
1)What era of Japanese combat are we talking about: Sengoku or Meiji? In the sengoku period guns were used sparingly and the battles where they were used to great effect were ones in which the enemy charged head long into matchlocks that were behind barricades.
2)A pike is not equivalent to a naginata. Pikes require very little skill to use while naginatas do. Pikes are also alot longer.
3)Lamellar armor used by samurai was not made out of bamboo. It was made out of leather.
4)Horse archery was initially the main form of samurai combat, but this changed after the Gempei War. As time went on katanas became less of a second weapon. This is especially so during the reign of the Tokugawa when there were no large scale wars. Also the reason why so few people used them as their main weapon is because they were expensive. It is a lot easier to get a spear of a bow than a sword.
People talking crap about katanas isn't an excuse to return with pointless scenarios where soldiers wielding a single rapier face off against spearmen or groups, two wrongs don't make a right.

1. It doesn't matter what era we are talking about, the point is that bringing other weapons into the conversation escalates the whole thing until we get to actual history which basically equals, firearm trumps everything.
2. The point here is that a heavy rapier is perfectly capable of deflecting something the size of a naginata, it's not an ideal situation and in one on one its either going to be the naginata wielder winning or the opponent closing distance rendering both weapons pointless anyway, again bringing other weapons into this is pointless semantics and does a disservice to the historical weapons of both sides.
3. Yeah I looked it up, looks like lamellar armor was mostly iron and leather, so yeah I was wrong on that one, mostly irrelevant anyway, as I said in my original post, armor just complicates the whole thing, if we give the samurai their full armor set does that mean the rapier wielder is wearing full plate, in which case the katana is going to be worthless and the rapier is only going to pierce on a lucky hit, once again reducing the whole thing to a melee brawl. Or we can give the rapier wielder their other typical weapons, but that just runs into the whole, "firearms trump everything" and the rapier wielder is unlikely to even use their sword so once again completely pointless.
4. I will defer to you on this as my knowledge of Japanese warfare mostly agrees with you (I'm no historian though). Still, the katana was not the war winner or the backbone weapon of the Japanese military, it was a functional weapon that worked well for its specific purposes in the period, but it's use was often as much a cultural symbol as it was a functional weapon. As you said they were difficult to make, it's sort of like the role of a cavalry officers sword, useful in some circumstances and very deadly in its own right, but its not the weapon of choice when you needed the biggest bang for your buck.

Look, ignore the people trashing on katanas in this thread, the katana is a product of the time and place it was made in, same with the rapier, matchups like this are just exercises in mental masturbation, with more extreme people on each side twisting circumstances and scenarios to make their favored weapon look better. The closest we can get with this is sporting matches and even those are imperfect as they rely on rules to restrict injury and limit the kind of dirty moves a real life or death scenario would produce, and usually result in moves and tactics that a real combatant fearing for their life would think twice before using. There is no right answer here, because in real life the people carrying rapiers were too busy shooting the samurai from behind barricades, because real people aren't stupid enough to engage in a life or death duel in a war without having any advantage they can get. Honor duels would never put a katana versus a rapier either, as duels to the death almost always required similar weapons be used to be considered fair, nobody is going to let you bring a shotgun to a pistol duel.
 

GabeZhul

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Rapier. My reasoning is simple: Let's presume a historical encounter. This would mean that both participants are plucked out of their respective timelines to square off against each other, which would also mean that they would have no knowledge of the other or their fighting style. Let's also presume that both participants are wearing no armor, only using a single sword and they are masters of their respective school of swordsmanship. Finally, let's presume that this is a fair and square duel where factors such as drawing speed and terrain advantages are negated.
Under these parameters, the fight would go like this:

-The styles they use will be unfamiliar to each other, as it should be, so neither of them would bum-rush the other. However, while katanas are wielded similarly to European longswords and broadswords, something the rapier user would logically have a counter against, rapiers and the related fighting style would be completely unfamiliar in Japan, and thus the samurai would have no immediate counter against it. This means that the musketeer will have the initial advantage in the fight.

-Using this initial advantage and mixing it with his technique's greater flexibility and range, the musketer would be able to deliver the first strike, and even if it's not fatal, the wound would definitely hamper his opponent and thus give him even further advantage.

-After this the combat would be more balanced, as after the first strike the samurai would now have a better idea about the style of his opponent, thus helping his parry his attacks more efficiently.

-In the end the outcome would be the same: the wounded samurai would slowly bleed out while the musketeer would keep his distance and he would deliver the killing blow once his opponent is anemic enough. The only way the samurai could come out of it on top would be if he would throw caution out the window and bumrush the musketeer early in the fight while hoping that he wouldn't receive a fatal wound in response.

Under the aforementioned circumstances I would say 6/10 times the musketeer would win, 3/10 times they would inflict debilitating and/or fatal wounds on each other early in the fight and in the remaining 1/10 times the samurai would be able to parry the first strike and then overwhelm his opponent and cut him down before he could recover his balance. Overall I would still put my money on the guy with the rapier.

Now, on a bit of a tangent, I think the OP should have really clarified that this discussion is less about the actual weapons than the fighting styles associated with said weapons. It just breaks my heart to see so many people only focus on how the katana is made of pig iron or how the rapier would break and whatnot, which is completely irrelevant at best and factually untrue at worst.
In melee combat skill is everything, and doubly so when you introduce slashy/stabby bits of sharpened metal into the equation. Even a legendary katana would be just as effective as a wooden club in the hands of an amateur the same way a master fencer could kill his opponent just as easily with a fire poker as with a masterwork rapier. It's all about the man, so please stop arguing about the metal.

Speaking of which, someone around here was arguing that the katana got too much hate in this thread. For this I would say it would be more accurate to say that katanas are just receiving the backlash they deserve after being so ridiculously hyped up. You know, karma and stuff. :p

But again, why are katanas hyped on the first place? My best guesses would be these:

-World War 2: As it was already brought up before, there are many stories of Japanese soldiers with katanas cutting gun-barrels and whatnot. Now, why would the American soldiers make this up, you might ask?
There could be two reasons: there might have been an actual anecdote flowing around that got blown out of proportion (say, a soldier used his gun to block the sword of a Japanese soldier rushing against him in the trench and his gun broke/fell apart from the encounter), or more likely, propaganda, likely on both sides.
On the Japanese side they naturally hyped up their mass-produced swords as the best thing since lukewarm water (since that's what armies do to all their equipment, no matter how old or inefficient; just look at North Korea), and on the American side as well, for psychological reasons. To put it bluntly, it was so that the soldiers would feel more threatened and would have less reservations when it came to shooting guys only armed with cheap replica swords when it came to assaulting Japanese bunkers once they ran out of ammo. After all, those blades are dangerous! They can cut through a gun barrel and sever you in half, you know!
(Also, Mythbusters. Their methodology might not have been the best when they tested this, but I mostly agree with their findings: a katana could, at best, cut into an overheated machine-gun barrel under ideal circumstances, nothing more.)

-Anime: Probably the biggest cause, the anime and manga industry just never runs out of ideas when it comes to over-hyping katanas, often in the silliest and most implausible ways possible.
However, for the starting point of the katana-hype, we would have to look further back. It actually has its roots in the old samurai movies, practically the only genre besides some chinese wuxia stories where weapons were often as, if not more important than the characters. Take the weapon and battle-centric skeleton of those stories, add high-schoolers and other stereotypical anime tropes and you have got practically every shounen anime ever.
In these the katana has a set of tropes associated with it that makes it awesome beyond reality, like the ability to cut steel, other swords, to cut a person in half so fast they would not even realize they were cut until a few seconds later, the implausibly fast iai cuts and, of course, the whole bushido-mentality 95% of katana-wielders embody (except the villains, but there is a good chance those guys would either use some exotic weapon, european swords or just plain old guns anyway).
These are all over the top stuff, but remember, in animation being more awesome beats implausibility, and it's arguable that the viewers would slowly associate the katanas themselves with the awesome scenes courtesy of the simple fact that there are usually no other types of swords in these, or if they are, they are either some super-special-awesome-mega-blade the the protagonist uses or they are wielded by the antagonists (and since they are wielded by the antagonists, they are never as cool as the ones that are wielded by the heroes).

-Back to the samurai movies for a bit: you see, until the late 80s, those movies were practically the only ones where swordplay was a cool and impressive part of the film and the only movies where you could see elaborate swordfights. They were to katanas what Hong Kong martial arts flicks were to kung fu.
Then came the exploitation era of filmmaking, and then we got the well-toned Americal action heroes using kung-fu and katanas to beat up their opponents. Why were they using katanas? Well, because they were fighting ninjas, of course.
Finally, even in our modern era, the trope has taken root so hard that katanas keep showing up even when they make no goddamn sense. Like say, in the Highlander series, both McLeods are using katanas even though it makes no sense, with them being, you know, highlanders. Or, since we are on a gaming site, I might as well bring up things like how katanas are all over D&D, how a demon from hell makes a katana for one of his sons in the Devil May Cry series or how Mass Effect 3 has space-ninjas with space-katanas that can one-hit-kill you.
At this point katanas are just thrust into the hands of the characters just because of the tropes associated with them, because of tradition and, well...

-They just look awesome. Not only that, they look distinct and aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Smooth curves, a pronounced edge, polished and shiny with a recognizable grip pattern... Katanas are at the perfect intersection of looking good in the hands of practically anyone and having a unique shape that people can instantly recognize, unlike the myriad different types of swords Europeans developed. Also, they look delicate, and it is a well known psychological effect that people associate delicacy with skill and speed. Put a claymore into the hand of a guy and he will look like a brute, put a katana in his hand and he will look like a skilled warrior.

So yeah, this post turned out waaaaaaay longer than I planned. Sorry. :p
 

Mick Beard

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GabeZhul said:
World War 2: As it was already brought up before, there are many stories of Japanese soldiers with Katanas cutting gun-barrels and whatnot. Now, why would the American soldiers make this up, you might ask? There could be two reasons: there might have been an actual anecdote flowing around that got blown out of proportion (say, a soldier used his gun to block the sword of a Japanese soldier rushing against him in the trench and his gun broke/fell apart from the encounter), or more likely, propaganda, likely on both sides. On the Japanese side they naturally hyped up their mass-produced swords as the best thing since lukewarm water (since that's what armies do to all their equipment, no matter how old. just look at North Korea), and on the American side as well, for psychological reasons. To put it bluntly, it was so that the soldiers would feel more threatened and would have less reservations when it came to shooting guys only armed with cheap replica swords. After all, those are dangerous, they can cut through a gun barrel and sever you in half, you know...
haha that story is a funny one.

When Hank Reinhardt attempted to track down the story of katana cutting through machine gun barrels,
it seemed to have happened in Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and several other islands
- this led him to conclude Japanese soldiers had a pathological hatred of machine-gun barrels, and he wondered why they never? tried to cut down the gunner.
 

GabeZhul

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Mick Beard said:
GabeZhul said:
World War 2: As it was already brought up before, there are many stories of Japanese soldiers with Katanas cutting gun-barrels and whatnot. Now, why would the American soldiers make this up, you might ask? There could be two reasons: there might have been an actual anecdote flowing around that got blown out of proportion (say, a soldier used his gun to block the sword of a Japanese soldier rushing against him in the trench and his gun broke/fell apart from the encounter), or more likely, propaganda, likely on both sides. On the Japanese side they naturally hyped up their mass-produced swords as the best thing since lukewarm water (since that's what armies do to all their equipment, no matter how old. just look at North Korea), and on the American side as well, for psychological reasons. To put it bluntly, it was so that the soldiers would feel more threatened and would have less reservations when it came to shooting guys only armed with cheap replica swords. After all, those are dangerous, they can cut through a gun barrel and sever you in half, you know...
haha that story is a funny one.

When Hank Reinhardt attempted to track down the story of katana cutting through machine gun barrels,
it seemed to have happened in Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and several other islands
- this led him to conclude Japanese soldiers had a pathological hatred of machine-gun barrels, and he wondered why they never? tried to cut down the gunner.
That, or there was just this one really, really talented samurai guy who went from one theater of war to the next in an epic rampage of revenge against the gun that killed his father or something. :p

Also, I actually found a handy manual on cutting gun barrels with a katana:

How to cut a machine gun barrel in half with a katana in three easy steps.

1) heat gun barrel to orange heat in forge.
2) place on anvil with katana across barrel
3) hammer on back of katana until gun barrel is cut in two.
3a) Throw katana in metal scrap bucket, and use chisel next time.

But with all seriousness, the origin of the myth probably came from a Japanese propaganda movie where they "demonstrated" how a katana can cut a gun barrell, except the gun was just a wooden replica. That, or some Chinese training manual from the period saying that one should only need to concentrate enough and would be able to cut a gun barrel.

Or wait, are we sure they were cutting "gun barrel"s? Maybe they were cutting actual barrels they kept their guns or ammunition in and something was lost in translation...?
 

JayRPG

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Wyes said:
I don't think you know anything about Katanas...

A rapier is FAR more fragile than a Katana, while a rapier is pure steel, a Katana is forged by layering (or folding) low carbon and high carbon steel - this gives a Katana a shock absorbing core while maintaining a strong and sharp exterior, it had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the steel as you suggested, modern day forgers use this same process even though we have access to "better quality steel".

A rapier will simply shatter well before it reaches the kinds of thresholds a Katana can withstand.

Also, while a katana is not made to cleave a rapier in two like I frivolously suggested in my first comment... it COULD cut a rapier in half, I have no doubts.

Here is a video of a Samurai cutting challenge.. he cuts through steel pipe and a steel plate, with no damage to the katana what so ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyO46RQhYkQ
 

Tuxedoman

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Y'know, I really wish there were some sort of WMA vs EMA world competition. Not Battle of Nations, or SCA or anything like that, something that focus's purely on the weapons and the skill of their user. As many people have said, they're two totally different styles, even though they share plenty of similarities. I would have no clue what to do if I came up against a dude with a Kusarigama (that pick with a chain and weight) and you know what, it would be a blast to try out something new like that. Likewise, someone who has never fought against a two-handed longsword will all of a sudden find themselves fighting foreign techniques like Half-swording and Quillion strikes.

Plus people can finally see a Rapier fighting a Katana, and see that it doesn't matter that much about the weapon; its the dude holding it who makes all the difference.

Edit:

Whatislove said:
Wyes said:
Snipper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyO46RQhYkQ
And as for Katana's using layered steel, Rapier were made the exact same way. They're not really that rigid, and flex quite a bit just like any tempered sword does. Could a sword cut through one? Not if its being held by a user. The the user tries to block the incoming strike on the weak of his sword, it won't do anything. If he blocks on the strong, that nice big hiltguard and its mass will take the brunt of the strike. Plus, there isn't a hard surface under it like the pipe.

Finally, the plate.
It is 0.4mm thick.
Your average piece of plate armour is 1.6mm thick.
Your average rapier is thicker than that, plus its tempered and hardened with the exact same techniques you said before.

Cutting through a sheet of metal is meaningless when comparing it to cutting through a sword. If you can find a video of ANY sword cutting clean through another blade, then I'll happily admit I'm wrong and retract my statement
 

Mick Beard

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the only reason swords made these days are folded is just to give it the look. the steel we have access today is vasty superior to any metal the Japanese had... the reason why they folded their sword so much is because they only had access to iron sand and iron needs carbon in it to be of any use. anything the japs did to make a katana the Germanic, roman, viking, saxon etc were doing over 1000 years before them

the making of STEEL made it so that swords no longer had to be folded. the Europeans and ever other non Japanese culture developed better metallurgy skills. the Japanese as always kept to the same to keep with tradition
 

Mick Beard

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as for that guy cutting the pipe and the sheet metal

the metal was thin and the pipe was also thin. this feat could be don't with any sharpened bit of metal... just as long as whatever you are hitting is softer them what you are hitting it with the breaking risk is reduced
 

GrimTuesday

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Whatislove said:
Wyes said:
I don't think you know anything about Katanas...

A rapier is FAR more fragile than a Katana, while a rapier is pure steel, a Katana is forged by layering (or folding) low carbon and high carbon steel - this gives a Katana a shock absorbing core while maintaining a strong and sharp exterior, it had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the steel as you suggested, modern day forgers use this same process even though we have access to "better quality steel".

A rapier will simply shatter well before it reaches the kinds of thresholds a Katana can withstand.

Also, while a katana is not made to cleave a rapier in two like I frivolously suggested in my first comment... it COULD cut a rapier in half, I have no doubts.

Here is a video of a Samurai cutting challenge.. he cuts through steel pipe and a steel plate, with no damage to the katana what so ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyO46RQhYkQ
You need to go read the rest of the thread, because your point has already been addressed. The only way that a Rapier is going to break is if you sat there and pounded on it for a couple days, at which point it would break just because it had been pounded on for a couple of days rather than because of the quality of the Katana. The steel used to make European weapons was of much better quality. Also, don't act like this was something special to the Katana, because The Celts and other peoples were using the same process long before the Japanese were.

This whole conversation is moronic. Most of us don't have the training to make any real judgements on the effectiveness of either weapon, so its just an exercise in stupidity. Besides, everyone knows that using swords in general is a crappy way to fight. Swords were, for the most parts fashion accessories that you could use as a weapon in a pinch. If you guys want to start talking about weapons, lets talk about ones that were actually made to kill people, not just made to match your sabatons.
 

Tuxedoman

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GrimTuesday said:
This whole conversation is moronic. Most of us don't have the training to make any real judgements on the effectiveness of either weapon, so its just an exercise in stupidity. Besides, everyone knows that using swords in general is a crappy way to fight. Swords were, for the most parts fashion accessories that you could use as a weapon in a pinch. If you guys want to start talking about weapons, lets talk about ones that were actually made to kill people, not just made to match your sabatons.
Well... Swords WERE battlefield weapons once upon a time... By the time Rapiers were common place you wouldn't be using a sword very often on the battlefield, as cannons/muskets were all the rage.

A Messer was a knife that doubled as a sword, which was basically an accessory that could be used as a weapon in a pinch.
Longswords were very much battlefield weapons up until gunpowder began being used all over europe, and arming swords were used even past then.
 

Ieyke

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Hero in a half shell said:
Someone else mentioned the Katana would have better control and more speed, due to the Rapier being one handed and the Katana being 2 handed, in your opinion how big a difference is there, and would this have a noticable effect on the fight?
It would have a MASSIVE effect.

The only real downside to two-handed fighting is that you lose some of the additional length that arm's-length adds to a weapon's reach.
Everything else is huge upsides.

However, even the extended reach benefit of a one-handed weapon can be a drawback. ESPECIALLY in a fight like this.
Where a katana wielder is guarding most of his area with 2.5 feet of steel, the rapier wielder's arm is much more fully extended and exposed as a far more vulnerable target.

As for control, you can EASILY test this for yourself.
You may not have a sword around, but you probably have a broom handle or a pole/pipe of some sort.
- Hold it in your dominant hand and swing it as hard and rapidly as you can and see how much force it takes for your lone wrist to stop it and rapidly change it's direction.
Then hold it out and have someone just slap it sideways and see how hard it is for you to counteract that. You may very well find yourself disarmed, depending on just how hard the broom got slapped.
- Then, with your left hand holding the end of the broom and your right hand about a fist's distance above your left hand (switch hands if you're left-handed), repeat that.
You should find that your right (or dominant) hand acts as a fulcrum, and your left hand controls just how hard and fast that stick can pivot around that fulcrum.
Your swings become vastly more powerful by pushing forward with your dominant hand while simultaneously pulling with your other hand, likewise you can input counteracting forces to any motion through both hands - including stopping your own swings or retaining control of a weapon that has been hit (or slapped, in this case).
Similarly, you get vastly more powerful thrusting ability by guiding a stab with your dominant hand and projecting the force through your body, into your left hand, and through the pommel of the sword - it's essentially like turning the sword into a giant nail and turning your body into the hammer that is hitting the head of the nail.


Again, the fact that a rapier IS truly a stabbing weapon and of little use at ranges closer than the tip cannot be be emphasized enough. This is a COLOSSAL weakness, as the power a katana wielder (hereafter referred to as "samurai" for expediency) can drive through his weapon can -easily- catch and knock aside the one-handed rapier and leave the rapier wielder (hereafter "fencer") wide open for a rushdown as the samurai rapidly closes the distance into the range too close for the rapier. A deflected rapier likely also means the fencer's sword arm will be briefly COMPLETELY exposed and an easy target for a swift amputation by the samurai's blade.
If the fencer looses footing even briefly, or just reacts slightly too slow to the samurai moving in, any clash between the two swords could easily find him dead.


Honestly, you can take this entire problem down to a simple "try at your own risk" home experiment to instantly understand these key factors and how they interact with each other.
If you and a friend aren't afraid of getting some bruised knuckles, get:
- "Katana" stick ~40" (bottom 11" are the grip, the other 29" are the "deadly" part)
- "Rapier" stick ~46" (bottom 6" are the grip and pommel, upper 6" are the "deadly" part)

Try hitting each others' "swords" and you'll see EXACTLY what I mean instantly.
Then watch and see if you don't figure out exactly how to follow up the deflection of the "rapier" and make a lunging downward or upward slash across the exposed arm.

Another test you can do -
- designate a target (something you don't mind hitting and possibly breaking)
- swing each of the "swords" at the target and try and get as close as possible to it WITHOUT hitting it. In all likelihood you will find that the two hands make this far far easier.

-

Heck, you can boil this all the way down to simple physics and bio-mechanics.
- as you swing an object you generate rotational inertia.
- the heavier the object is, the more rotational inertia is generated.
- the further from the axis of rotation that the weight is distributed, the more inertia it gains.
- the more inertia it has, the more force it requires to act upon it (speeding it up, slowing it down, changing directions, etc).

- human wrists are rotationally weak. just holding a broom by the end and rotating your wrist back and forth requires a LOT of effort and will rapidly tire out your wrist.
- a human arm's pulling and pushing is MUCH stronger.

- imagine trying to lift a big rock of the ground by simply sticking the end of a stick under it and trying to pick it up. HUGE effort is required.
- imagine trying to lift the same rock by sticking the end of the stick under the rock and providing the rock with a fulcrum point (creating a lever). Now it's a simple matter of pushing down on your end of the lever.

Now, combine all that.
- the human wrist is attempting to move the weight with just a stick (rapier)
- one human arm is working to move the lever, while a second arm is serving as the lever's fulcrum itself. (katana)
- both set-ups are swinging essentially the exact same weight.
- the lever-less wrist is trying to swing the weight distributed out to ~39"
- the two "levered" arms are trying to swing the weight at just ~29"

The samurai and his katana have a HUGE mechanical advantage over the fencer and his rapier.

.

.

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If you want to get super technical, the rapier's single hand is performing the duties of a lever too. The index finger is essentially fulcrum point, and the rest of the hand is serving as the force acting upon the lever's effort arm.
The longer a lever's effort arm, the more force the lever can produce.
In the rapier's case, the length of the effort arm is just a hand's width (~4").

The dominant hand on the katana is acting as the fulcrum for the lever (i.e. the katana).
The other ~10" below the midpoint of the dominant hand is all part of the lever's effort arm, and the offhand is the force acting upon it.

The katana has about 250% of the effort arm length of the rapier, its output arm (the blade) typically weighs slightly less, and its input force (2 arms) is vastly more powerful than the rapier's (a wrist).
The katana is a much more massive force. When these two clash, it's the rapier that's going to get batted around.


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Mind you, there's a lot more to deal with in the relevant fighting styles of both weapons than just knocking swords around, but it this case it would likely be a crucial factor in how any such duel would turn out.
 

GrimTuesday

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Tuxedoman said:
GrimTuesday said:
This whole conversation is moronic. Most of us don't have the training to make any real judgements on the effectiveness of either weapon, so its just an exercise in stupidity. Besides, everyone knows that using swords in general is a crappy way to fight. Swords were, for the most parts fashion accessories that you could use as a weapon in a pinch. If you guys want to start talking about weapons, lets talk about ones that were actually made to kill people, not just made to match your sabatons.
Well... Swords WERE battlefield weapons once upon a time... By the time Rapiers were common place you wouldn't be using a sword very often on the battlefield, as cannons/muskets were all the rage.

A Messer was a knife that doubled as a sword, which was basically an accessory that could be used as a weapon in a pinch.
Longswords were very much battlefield weapons up until gunpowder began being used all over europe, and arming swords were used even past then.
My point is that despite how iconic the sword is, it was a secondary weapon/status symbol/fashion accessory for the most part. Sometimes Men at arms/levies usually had short swords, but that wasn't really the norm. Swords were expensive, so for the most part, only the upper class had them, though often times, they, being Knights, and therefore cavalry, used lances and short axes or maces from the saddle. I'm sure there were knight who did use swords when they were actually on foot, but for the most part, that would be against other knights, as the goal wasn't to kill, but rather to beat beat on each other until one submits so that they could ransom them back. Most of the people they were fight however, were just your basic men at arms, so it was the ax, the mace, or the hammer for them, because you can't ransom back the poor, so you might as well kill them.

Edit: It just occurred to me that a falchion is still technically a sword, despite the fact it was used as a glorified cleaver.

I'm talking about Western Europe here, Eastern Europe had their own weapons that do different things, but I'm not nearly as familiar with their stuff, so I'm not even going to act like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to that.
 

GabeZhul

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And thus the discussion once again devolved into talking about the stupid steel-quality and forging stuff that has practically zero impact on the actual topic.

Also, to anyone who keeps harping on the whole "rapiers break" issue, please note that we are generally not talking about the thin and easily bendable fencing rapiers modern fencers use in competitions, but actual, tempered steel blades that can be as thick as your finger or more. Please try breaking one of those. Hell, it would be hard to do that even with a hammer, let alone with another sword!

The whole "weapon breaks" topic would only have any merit if we were talking about some heavy blade in opposition, like a zweihander or a claymore or heavy blunt weapons, but we are not, so could we please finally forget about this argument already?
 

GabeZhul

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Ieyke said:
I respectfully disagree. You are only taking force into the equation, and in that regard the katana (and any other two-handed sword, if we are at that) wins hands down, but you completely disregard the flexibility and reach the rapier offers. Fencing using a rapier is not about clashing the two blades and seeing which one can com up on top but about keeping your opponent at an optimum distance, feints, parries and showing as few openings as possible.
Also, yo do not "swing" a rapier, you lunge forward with it, adding several feets to its effective length, something you completely ignored.

In my opinion a fight between the two styles would ultimately come down to which one could deliver the first blow, since whichever one did that would probably come out on top. If the samurai did, he would be able to cause serious injuries since his opponent is unarmored. However if the musketer did then he would have probably been able to deal a fatal stab since the samurai's stance is centered on defending against slashes and comparatively slow spear thrusts, thus a skilled fencer would probably be able to strike a vital organ with ease.

As I have already pointed out beforehand, I see the latter situation more plausible since fencers would have analogues, and thus tactics against opponents with two handed swords, while samurai have no such analogue and counter for fast stabbing swords in their style, thus giving the fencer a definitive edge.
 

Tuxedoman

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GrimTuesday said:
Tuxedoman said:
GrimTuesday said:
Well, Mercenary companies like the Landsknechts would use swords as they could easily afford them, and these mercenary companies did a lot of the combat in late medieval/early Renaissance Europe. Plus if you go back to the 600-900AD era when the saxons were a thing, then swords were *very* common. After all, they just stripped the gear off of the dead, so they had all sorts of weapons on them when they went into combat.

When I say sword, I don't mean one handed weapons. Im meaning these.




larger two handed swords which were designed with half-swording in mind for fighting other armoured opponents, and the broad edge blades that were basically really flat maces. Plus, plough swords were not very expensive. They're commonly found super low quality swords that were given out to your average joe if he was about to go to battle, and spears weren't gonna be overly useful.

All that said, when someone thinks of the european sword, most people think smaller single handed weapons. In that reguard, yeah. They were almost exclusively secondary weapons for guys whom usually used two handed weapons, or if the wielder was a crazy ass shock trooper who was clad in full plate and wanted to use his offhand for easy grabbing.
Even then, I imagine he would still have some sort of great weapon..
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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I'd probably back the Rapier, myself. Though as for training for pleasure and self-discipline, there's an undeniable appeal in Katana styles if only for the Zen-like feelings. Training with a decent longsword would be a fucking hoot, though.