Poll: Katana and Rapier: An Objective Comparison

Recommended Videos

ardias014

New member
Aug 31, 2009
50
0
0
Um guys, you are aware the katana is also a thrusting weapon, right? n a duel it is debatable that a rapier would win, but on a battle field a rapier would be worth next to shit compared to a katana or any other blade for that matter. I would like to see someone take a rapier against a pike or yari formation and see how they fared.

Also demoman_chaos, the bow was initially the main weapon for samurai, but it didn't remain so. Also a katana is not useless against a spear wall. When confronting a spear wall you have to knock pike and spears out of the way, which a rapier cannot do, this is why weapons like the zweihander were used in pike formations in Europe.
 

Wyes

New member
Aug 1, 2009
514
0
0
ColonelHopper said:
Clearly, you can see two examples of steel weapons, one a rapier, one a large two-handed sword, which would probably be heavier than a traditionally constructed katana, in nearly seven minutes of sustained combat, with heavy blows dealt to both. And yet, no damaged or broken rapier.
Katanas actually tend to be heavier than longswords (when you compare the museum pieces and the good reconstructions). See this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsYbRom3h7U]. In fact, most of this school's stuff is pretty good.

prpshrt said:
A traditional katana could slice through steel. This is considering that it was made the proper way. So I'm pretty sure they'd be able to slice a rapier too.
That is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, of which I have not seen any.

Tuxedoman said:
Rapier blades are not little dainty foils. Sure they're thinner than Katanas, but they're still about 20-30mm wide. Its more likely the Katana will bite into the blade, but that in its self isn't something either fighter would want. That means that both of the blades are now stuck together and effectively useless until they're unbound.

You should be blocking on the flat of your blade with any type of sword to preserve its life.
.
A couple points;

Unless both swords have quite soft edges, they will not 'get stuck'. They do stick a little, but not nearly to the extent you're suggesting. I have actually done some drills with sharps (we did a seminar on Fiore with Guy Windsor, who is big on drilling with sharps at least once per technique).

Otherwise, where does the claim that you should be blocking with the flat come from? In some sense it's true that parrying with the flat will preserve the edge of the sword, but if you're parrying with the edge you're parrying with the forte, which you're not cutting with anyway. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't flat parries, but from the manuals they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
 

prpshrt

New member
Jun 18, 2012
260
0
0
Tuxedoman said:
Rapier blades are not little dainty foils. Sure they're thinner than Katanas, but they're still about 20-30mm wide. Its more likely the Katana will bite into the blade, but that in its self isn't something either fighter would want. That means that both of the blades are now stuck together and effectively useless until they're unbound.

You should be blocking on the flat of your blade with any type of sword to preserve its life.

I'm rambling a bit now though. In short, I HIGHLY doubt any sword can cut through another sword unless some other factor is in play, such as the core of a sword being rusted.
Goes to show how little I know about rapiers ._.
 

ColonelHopper

New member
Mar 21, 2011
10
0
0
Wyes said:
ColonelHopper said:
Katanas actually tend to be heavier than longswords (when you compare the museum pieces and the good reconstructions). See this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsYbRom3h7U]. In fact, most of this school's stuff is pretty good.
Learn something every day. Actually, makes sense, much thicker blade.


A couple points;

Unless both swords have quite soft edges, they will not 'get stuck'. They do stick a little, but not nearly to the extent you're suggesting. I have actually done some drills with sharps (we did a seminar on Fiore with Guy Windsor, who is big on drilling with sharps at least once per technique).

Otherwise, where does the claim that you should be blocking with the flat come from? In some sense it's true that parrying with the flat will preserve the edge of the sword, but if you're parrying with the edge you're parrying with the forte, which you're not cutting with anyway. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't flat parries, but from the manuals they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
The explanation that I've always heard is that it prevents damage to the blade, a flat parry spreads the impact, an edge impact might snap the blade easier. Not sure if this is true. Most practitioners don't really try to intentionally place their valued blades in situations where they might easily be broken, so it'll be hard to figure out.

Also, please, anyone, show me a credible example of a katana cutting through steel reliably? I'd love to see it.
 

mrdude2010

New member
Aug 6, 2009
1,315
0
0
In general, the point beats the edge. Also, the quality of the steel katanas were made from wasn't that great. That's why they folded it 8 times or so to make it workable.
 

Tuxedoman

New member
Apr 16, 2009
117
0
0
Wyes said:
Snip Snip mc Snip
In terms of the sharps biting, I haven't fought or drilled with sharps myself so I was going from second hand sources rather than first hand. I want to, but I need the money for one.

And as for the flat parries, I was under the impression it was very commonplace? It is in Meyer's work and im fairly certain that its in Fiore too. Ringeck has a bunch of stuff about parrying with the flat (Absetzen), and I have yet to see anything in Talhoffer that is explicitly edge on egde.

That said, the only fechtbuch I can think of that tells you straight out "Block with the flat" is Wallerstein at plates 65 and 69. They are Messer scripts, so yeah, the knuckle guard is there...

Edge on edge vs Edge on flat is apparently a huge cause of debate in assorted HEMA and WMA groups, so everyone to his own. Kind of like this whole rapier vs katana thing thats going on..
 

Wyes

New member
Aug 1, 2009
514
0
0
ColonelHopper said:
The explanation that I've always heard is that it prevents damage to the blade, a flat parry spreads the impact, an edge impact might snap the blade easier. Not sure if this is true. Most practitioners don't really try to intentionally place their valued blades in situations where they might easily be broken, so it'll be hard to figure out.
The thing is that a great many manuals are pretty explicit when talking about parrying, and they talk about parrying with the edge of the forte (see George Silver's 'Paradoxes of Defence', either Taylor or Page for Highland Broadsword, I believe its in the very few sources for English longsword, I'm pretty sure Fiore talks about it, it's in Bolognese, etc.).

The only school I can think of off the top of my head who teaches parrying with the flat as the rule rather than the exception is the ARMA, headed by John Clements who has developed something of a reputation over it. The ARMA also has a reputation for being isolationist and not wanting to interact with other schools.
 

Wyes

New member
Aug 1, 2009
514
0
0
Tuxedoman said:
Certainly there are flat parries, they do exist, but they've always seemed to be the exception to the rule. The thing is that most of the reputable schools and HEMA practitioners I'm aware of have taken the edge parry interpretation, and there are most definitely manuals that explicitly tell you to parry with the edge (the aforementioned Paradoxes of Defence being a good example).

As far as I can tell, parrying with the edge is biomechanically advantageous over parrying with the flat.

It might be that it's more common in the German stuff, which I'm not particularly familiar with, although my instructors are.


EDIT: Oops, double post.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
ardias014 said:
Um guys, you are aware the katana is also a thrusting weapon, right? n a duel it is debatable that a rapier would win, but on a battle field a rapier would be worth next to shit compared to a katana or any other blade for that matter. I would like to see someone take a rapier against a pike or yari formation and see how they fared.

Also demoman_chaos, the bow was initially the main weapon for samurai, but it didn't remain so. Also a katana is not useless against a spear wall. When confronting a spear wall you have to knock pike and spears out of the way, which a rapier cannot do, this is why weapons like the zweihander were used in pike formations in Europe.
You do realize it's pointless to bring other weapons into the debate, the rapier and katana were designed to be used in two totally different styles of war. The rapier on the battlefield was a backup weapon for shot and pike formations, a katana would be equally useless against a musket firing line backed up by pike and bayonet. History actually supports this one as the Japanese armies got utterly wrecked by even basic firearms, so asking the rapier to perform against naginatas and whole formations is the height of pointlessness as you might as well start bringing in the other associated weapons of the time period.

This is part of the problem right here though, some rapiers are indeed large enough to parry spears and some are even heavier than the average katana, rapier is a very broad term and covers a lot of different styles of swords, they were actually used to counter pikemen in some cases which is pretty much the European equivalent to a naginata. In the early rennaissance the weapons that would be called rapiers were also used as heavy plate armor piercing weapons on occasion.

That's why this entire debate is pointless, there's too many variables to make an informed decision. The relative skill of the combatants will make a huge difference just to start. Even then we have to decide on what types of katana and rapier we are talking about here, there are a few different katana designs, and a metric crapton of rapier designs, some wildly different from each other. A foil would be useless in a real fight to the death, but in a sporting match, can leverage it's speed and size to score hits. The heaviest of rapiers are bigger tougher and longer than your average katana as they were made to parry and deflect musket bayonets and pike weapons, in this case you get a much slower but also more powerful weapon. Past that, there's also the fact that in a fight to the death scenario the rapier was designed to be one handed so the other hand could carry a weapon too, typically a buckler or dagger, or even another rapier, and later in the renaissance the rapier was typically coupled with a single shot pistol in the other hand. That alone is a point against this whole stupid debate since you start out handicapping the rapier wielder who is using a weapon designed to free up a hand so another weapon or shield can be put in it in a real combat scenario.

Of course even past all that, these weapons weren't designed in a vacuum, in real combat these were both support weapons meant to back up the fighter's main weapons. the samurai typically riding on horseback with a bow, also carrying a spear of some type, and decked out in fairly heavy bamboo armor. The rapier wielder would have generally had a gun of some sort as well as some type of armor depending on what they were actually trying to defend against, and any ranking officer at the time likely would be carrying multiple single or double shot pistols on them as well. Sport scenarios aren't great to compare to these situations either because sport fencing and kendo tend to involve moves a real combatant would never go for as quickly because of the dire risk to their life, a real combat scenario would more likely turn into a wrestling match or both combatants fighting really dirty with each other.

The whole conversation does a disservice to the historical situation that made these two weapons what they were for their time period, you would be much better served arguing for outcomes in a modern competition scenario, as people have already posted videos, the rule and restriction heavy sport arena makes these debates at least marginally plausible.
 

ardias014

New member
Aug 31, 2009
50
0
0
Mick Beard said:
blah blah blah katanas can cut thru tanks and can even cut meteorites in half blah blah blah its true I seen it on the internets blah blah blah


Katanas to be honest are not great weapons. they were great for Japanese style fighting against other Japanese people.

even the Japanese preferred to use spears and Naginatas over a katana.


and the way a katana is made isn't some magical thing only the Japanese did.

Germanic tribes, romans, celts, Saxons, Vikings all did this with their weapons 1000 years before the Japanese did.. why did they stop making these magical folded and pattern welded blades you ask?

well they stop because they developed STEEL and any STEEL is better then folded iron!
They preferred to use spears because they were cheap and good at distance and most samurai even if they used another weapon like a naginata, they kept another blade in case it broke.

Also the important part is not that they folded the blade, it is how they did it. Instead of having a uniform blade, the cutting edge of the blade was made up of brittle, but very sharp steel. The rest of it is very durable. The main weakness of the katana's material is that it has to be maintained constantly. This is because the oil used in maintaining it also makes crap grow on the blade.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
5,114
0
0
Well, firstly, one should note that people using katanas were more likely to also be wearing armor. Rapiers were really designed to be used by unarmored bearers against unarmored foes.

Secondly, a longer blade also makes for a longer draw time; many katana practitioners specifically trained in iaijutsu, meaning that in some situations they would be attacking while the rapier practitioner was still clearing sheath.

Thirdly, a long thrusting weapon is great when you hit your opponent from the outside; not so great if your opponent moves inside of your ready attack area with a cleaving weapon. See Rob Roy.

Some of these issues become less meaningful if the rapier user was using a main-gauche.

It should also be noted that many katana users knew one-handed as well as two-handed techniques.

I tend to favor the katana user. I do like rapiers; they're fast and elegant weapons. But if I was in a fight for my life, give me the katana.
 

Tuxedoman

New member
Apr 16, 2009
117
0
0
Wyes said:
Tuxedoman said:
Certainly there are flat parries, they do exist, but they've always seemed to be the exception to the rule. The thing is that most of the reputable schools and HEMA practitioners I'm aware of have taken the edge parry interpretation, and there are most definitely manuals that explicitly tell you to parry with the edge (the aforementioned Paradoxes of Defence being a good example).

As far as I can tell, parrying with the edge is biomechanically advantageous over parrying with the flat.

It might be that it's more common in the German stuff, which I'm not particularly familiar with, although my instructors are.


EDIT: Oops, double post.
Im the opposite, I don't know a whole lot about the assorted Italian teachings and have learned nearly exclusively from German teachings. Flat vs Edge im thinking has its advantages and disadvantages based on the situation you'd use it in.

I believe what we have learned here today is that, indeed, you can not cut through a rapier with a Katana.
 

ardias014

New member
Aug 31, 2009
50
0
0
EternallyBored said:
Yes the term rapier covers a lot of territory so this is a bit pointless, I'm simply engaging in it because a lot of people are taking a massive crap on the katana. Also a few points:
1)What era of Japanese combat are we talking about: Sengoku or Meiji? In the sengoku period guns were used sparingly and the battles where they were used to great effect were ones in which the enemy charged head long into matchlocks that were behind barricades.
2)A pike is not equivalent to a naginata. Pikes require very little skill to use while naginatas do. Pikes are also alot longer.
3)Lamellar armor used by samurai was not made out of bamboo. It was made out of leather.
4)Horse archery was initially the main form of samurai combat, but this changed after the Gempei War. As time went on katanas became less of a second weapon. This is especially so during the reign of the Tokugawa when there were no large scale wars. Also the reason why so few people used them as their main weapon is because they were expensive. It is a lot easier to get a spear of a bow than a sword.
 

Kristoffer Bailey

New member
Oct 21, 2013
2
0
0
I think in the end its the skill and quick-thinking of the weapons wielder that decides the battle. I am not entirely sure what the stratagem of the katana-wielder would be, but as somebody who has had some experience fencing I think I would be more concerned about what will happen if I block his strike, and what will happen if my strike isn't immediately debilitating. A katana is a pretty sturdy and powerful sword from what I know, while the rapier is more.."Finesse" I guess you could say. Rather than blocking the strike, which would probably break your wrist, your best bet would be to catch the blade with a parry that it might push it off target. I'm not really sure how to explain that other than instead of bracing for the impact you'd want to pivot your guard at the point of contact between both blades so that the rapier is essentially guiding the climax of the katana's swing away from its target. At that point the katana doesn't have time to recover back to its area of guard before a quick jab can be given by the rapier. OOOR what if instead of preparing to parry the katana the rapier wielder goes straight for the attack to begin with. If the stab connects is it going to manage to cancel the katana-wielders swing?
 

Mick Beard

New member
Jan 9, 2013
46
0
0
ardias014 said:
Mick Beard said:
blah blah blah katanas can cut thru tanks and can even cut meteorites in half blah blah blah its true I seen it on the internets blah blah blah


Katanas to be honest are not great weapons. they were great for Japanese style fighting against other Japanese people.

even the Japanese preferred to use spears and Naginatas over a katana.


and the way a katana is made isn't some magical thing only the Japanese did.

Germanic tribes, romans, celts, Saxons, Vikings all did this with their weapons 1000 years before the Japanese did.. why did they stop making these magical folded and pattern welded blades you ask?

well they stop because they developed STEEL and any STEEL is better then folded iron!
They preferred to use spears because they were cheap and good at distance and most samurai even if they used another weapon like a naginata, they kept another blade in case it broke.

Also the important part is not that they folded the blade, it is how they did it. Instead of having a uniform blade, the cutting edge of the blade was made up of brittle, but very sharp steel. The rest of it is very durable. The main weakness of the katana's material is that it has to be maintained constantly. This is because the oil used in maintaining it also makes crap grow on the blade.

ok..... the style of quenching that they use to produce the harder edge of the blade and softer spine of the blade was also done by Europeans before they worked out how to make steel. it happens by it self due to the reason of the edge of the blade is always thinner then the spine so it cools quicker and hardens. What the Japanese did different is by also using the line between the hard edge and soft spine (its called the hamon)as a decoration and even came up with a way to manipulate how it looks (with clay). the only difference is they were still doing this around 700 years after the Europeans worked out how to make Steel.

so the hardness and softness isn't anything special its just how it is done with Iron blades to make them better.


the oil used to maintain Japanese blades is Clove oil mixed with mineral oil. now I have swords here that have been coated in this oil for well over 15years and there is nothing growing on them. Clove oil is a natural analgaesic and antiseptic oil so nothing will grow on it.

and all weapons weather made out of iron or Steel need to be oiled or waxed to make sure they don't rust.


also not every samurai had a katana. but yes spears are cheaper and a lot more effective. that is why they are the universal weapon of choice of all battle fields until the invention of the gun
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
ardias014 said:
EternallyBored said:
Yes the term rapier covers a lot of territory so this is a bit pointless, I'm simply engaging in it because a lot of people are taking a massive crap on the katana. Also a few points:
1)What era of Japanese combat are we talking about: Sengoku or Meiji? In the sengoku period guns were used sparingly and the battles where they were used to great effect were ones in which the enemy charged head long into matchlocks that were behind barricades.
2)A pike is not equivalent to a naginata. Pikes require very little skill to use while naginatas do. Pikes are also alot longer.
3)Lamellar armor used by samurai was not made out of bamboo. It was made out of leather.
4)Horse archery was initially the main form of samurai combat, but this changed after the Gempei War. As time went on katanas became less of a second weapon. This is especially so during the reign of the Tokugawa when there were no large scale wars. Also the reason why so few people used them as their main weapon is because they were expensive. It is a lot easier to get a spear of a bow than a sword.
People talking crap about katanas isn't an excuse to return with pointless scenarios where soldiers wielding a single rapier face off against spearmen or groups, two wrongs don't make a right.

1. It doesn't matter what era we are talking about, the point is that bringing other weapons into the conversation escalates the whole thing until we get to actual history which basically equals, firearm trumps everything.
2. The point here is that a heavy rapier is perfectly capable of deflecting something the size of a naginata, it's not an ideal situation and in one on one its either going to be the naginata wielder winning or the opponent closing distance rendering both weapons pointless anyway, again bringing other weapons into this is pointless semantics and does a disservice to the historical weapons of both sides.
3. Yeah I looked it up, looks like lamellar armor was mostly iron and leather, so yeah I was wrong on that one, mostly irrelevant anyway, as I said in my original post, armor just complicates the whole thing, if we give the samurai their full armor set does that mean the rapier wielder is wearing full plate, in which case the katana is going to be worthless and the rapier is only going to pierce on a lucky hit, once again reducing the whole thing to a melee brawl. Or we can give the rapier wielder their other typical weapons, but that just runs into the whole, "firearms trump everything" and the rapier wielder is unlikely to even use their sword so once again completely pointless.
4. I will defer to you on this as my knowledge of Japanese warfare mostly agrees with you (I'm no historian though). Still, the katana was not the war winner or the backbone weapon of the Japanese military, it was a functional weapon that worked well for its specific purposes in the period, but it's use was often as much a cultural symbol as it was a functional weapon. As you said they were difficult to make, it's sort of like the role of a cavalry officers sword, useful in some circumstances and very deadly in its own right, but its not the weapon of choice when you needed the biggest bang for your buck.

Look, ignore the people trashing on katanas in this thread, the katana is a product of the time and place it was made in, same with the rapier, matchups like this are just exercises in mental masturbation, with more extreme people on each side twisting circumstances and scenarios to make their favored weapon look better. The closest we can get with this is sporting matches and even those are imperfect as they rely on rules to restrict injury and limit the kind of dirty moves a real life or death scenario would produce, and usually result in moves and tactics that a real combatant fearing for their life would think twice before using. There is no right answer here, because in real life the people carrying rapiers were too busy shooting the samurai from behind barricades, because real people aren't stupid enough to engage in a life or death duel in a war without having any advantage they can get. Honor duels would never put a katana versus a rapier either, as duels to the death almost always required similar weapons be used to be considered fair, nobody is going to let you bring a shotgun to a pistol duel.
 

GabeZhul

New member
Mar 8, 2012
699
0
0
Rapier. My reasoning is simple: Let's presume a historical encounter. This would mean that both participants are plucked out of their respective timelines to square off against each other, which would also mean that they would have no knowledge of the other or their fighting style. Let's also presume that both participants are wearing no armor, only using a single sword and they are masters of their respective school of swordsmanship. Finally, let's presume that this is a fair and square duel where factors such as drawing speed and terrain advantages are negated.
Under these parameters, the fight would go like this:

-The styles they use will be unfamiliar to each other, as it should be, so neither of them would bum-rush the other. However, while katanas are wielded similarly to European longswords and broadswords, something the rapier user would logically have a counter against, rapiers and the related fighting style would be completely unfamiliar in Japan, and thus the samurai would have no immediate counter against it. This means that the musketeer will have the initial advantage in the fight.

-Using this initial advantage and mixing it with his technique's greater flexibility and range, the musketer would be able to deliver the first strike, and even if it's not fatal, the wound would definitely hamper his opponent and thus give him even further advantage.

-After this the combat would be more balanced, as after the first strike the samurai would now have a better idea about the style of his opponent, thus helping his parry his attacks more efficiently.

-In the end the outcome would be the same: the wounded samurai would slowly bleed out while the musketeer would keep his distance and he would deliver the killing blow once his opponent is anemic enough. The only way the samurai could come out of it on top would be if he would throw caution out the window and bumrush the musketeer early in the fight while hoping that he wouldn't receive a fatal wound in response.

Under the aforementioned circumstances I would say 6/10 times the musketeer would win, 3/10 times they would inflict debilitating and/or fatal wounds on each other early in the fight and in the remaining 1/10 times the samurai would be able to parry the first strike and then overwhelm his opponent and cut him down before he could recover his balance. Overall I would still put my money on the guy with the rapier.

Now, on a bit of a tangent, I think the OP should have really clarified that this discussion is less about the actual weapons than the fighting styles associated with said weapons. It just breaks my heart to see so many people only focus on how the katana is made of pig iron or how the rapier would break and whatnot, which is completely irrelevant at best and factually untrue at worst.
In melee combat skill is everything, and doubly so when you introduce slashy/stabby bits of sharpened metal into the equation. Even a legendary katana would be just as effective as a wooden club in the hands of an amateur the same way a master fencer could kill his opponent just as easily with a fire poker as with a masterwork rapier. It's all about the man, so please stop arguing about the metal.

Speaking of which, someone around here was arguing that the katana got too much hate in this thread. For this I would say it would be more accurate to say that katanas are just receiving the backlash they deserve after being so ridiculously hyped up. You know, karma and stuff. :p

But again, why are katanas hyped on the first place? My best guesses would be these:

-World War 2: As it was already brought up before, there are many stories of Japanese soldiers with katanas cutting gun-barrels and whatnot. Now, why would the American soldiers make this up, you might ask?
There could be two reasons: there might have been an actual anecdote flowing around that got blown out of proportion (say, a soldier used his gun to block the sword of a Japanese soldier rushing against him in the trench and his gun broke/fell apart from the encounter), or more likely, propaganda, likely on both sides.
On the Japanese side they naturally hyped up their mass-produced swords as the best thing since lukewarm water (since that's what armies do to all their equipment, no matter how old or inefficient; just look at North Korea), and on the American side as well, for psychological reasons. To put it bluntly, it was so that the soldiers would feel more threatened and would have less reservations when it came to shooting guys only armed with cheap replica swords when it came to assaulting Japanese bunkers once they ran out of ammo. After all, those blades are dangerous! They can cut through a gun barrel and sever you in half, you know!
(Also, Mythbusters. Their methodology might not have been the best when they tested this, but I mostly agree with their findings: a katana could, at best, cut into an overheated machine-gun barrel under ideal circumstances, nothing more.)

-Anime: Probably the biggest cause, the anime and manga industry just never runs out of ideas when it comes to over-hyping katanas, often in the silliest and most implausible ways possible.
However, for the starting point of the katana-hype, we would have to look further back. It actually has its roots in the old samurai movies, practically the only genre besides some chinese wuxia stories where weapons were often as, if not more important than the characters. Take the weapon and battle-centric skeleton of those stories, add high-schoolers and other stereotypical anime tropes and you have got practically every shounen anime ever.
In these the katana has a set of tropes associated with it that makes it awesome beyond reality, like the ability to cut steel, other swords, to cut a person in half so fast they would not even realize they were cut until a few seconds later, the implausibly fast iai cuts and, of course, the whole bushido-mentality 95% of katana-wielders embody (except the villains, but there is a good chance those guys would either use some exotic weapon, european swords or just plain old guns anyway).
These are all over the top stuff, but remember, in animation being more awesome beats implausibility, and it's arguable that the viewers would slowly associate the katanas themselves with the awesome scenes courtesy of the simple fact that there are usually no other types of swords in these, or if they are, they are either some super-special-awesome-mega-blade the the protagonist uses or they are wielded by the antagonists (and since they are wielded by the antagonists, they are never as cool as the ones that are wielded by the heroes).

-Back to the samurai movies for a bit: you see, until the late 80s, those movies were practically the only ones where swordplay was a cool and impressive part of the film and the only movies where you could see elaborate swordfights. They were to katanas what Hong Kong martial arts flicks were to kung fu.
Then came the exploitation era of filmmaking, and then we got the well-toned Americal action heroes using kung-fu and katanas to beat up their opponents. Why were they using katanas? Well, because they were fighting ninjas, of course.
Finally, even in our modern era, the trope has taken root so hard that katanas keep showing up even when they make no goddamn sense. Like say, in the Highlander series, both McLeods are using katanas even though it makes no sense, with them being, you know, highlanders. Or, since we are on a gaming site, I might as well bring up things like how katanas are all over D&D, how a demon from hell makes a katana for one of his sons in the Devil May Cry series or how Mass Effect 3 has space-ninjas with space-katanas that can one-hit-kill you.
At this point katanas are just thrust into the hands of the characters just because of the tropes associated with them, because of tradition and, well...

-They just look awesome. Not only that, they look distinct and aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Smooth curves, a pronounced edge, polished and shiny with a recognizable grip pattern... Katanas are at the perfect intersection of looking good in the hands of practically anyone and having a unique shape that people can instantly recognize, unlike the myriad different types of swords Europeans developed. Also, they look delicate, and it is a well known psychological effect that people associate delicacy with skill and speed. Put a claymore into the hand of a guy and he will look like a brute, put a katana in his hand and he will look like a skilled warrior.

So yeah, this post turned out waaaaaaay longer than I planned. Sorry. :p
 

Mick Beard

New member
Jan 9, 2013
46
0
0
GabeZhul said:
World War 2: As it was already brought up before, there are many stories of Japanese soldiers with Katanas cutting gun-barrels and whatnot. Now, why would the American soldiers make this up, you might ask? There could be two reasons: there might have been an actual anecdote flowing around that got blown out of proportion (say, a soldier used his gun to block the sword of a Japanese soldier rushing against him in the trench and his gun broke/fell apart from the encounter), or more likely, propaganda, likely on both sides. On the Japanese side they naturally hyped up their mass-produced swords as the best thing since lukewarm water (since that's what armies do to all their equipment, no matter how old. just look at North Korea), and on the American side as well, for psychological reasons. To put it bluntly, it was so that the soldiers would feel more threatened and would have less reservations when it came to shooting guys only armed with cheap replica swords. After all, those are dangerous, they can cut through a gun barrel and sever you in half, you know...
haha that story is a funny one.

When Hank Reinhardt attempted to track down the story of katana cutting through machine gun barrels,
it seemed to have happened in Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and several other islands
- this led him to conclude Japanese soldiers had a pathological hatred of machine-gun barrels, and he wondered why they never? tried to cut down the gunner.
 

GabeZhul

New member
Mar 8, 2012
699
0
0
Mick Beard said:
GabeZhul said:
World War 2: As it was already brought up before, there are many stories of Japanese soldiers with Katanas cutting gun-barrels and whatnot. Now, why would the American soldiers make this up, you might ask? There could be two reasons: there might have been an actual anecdote flowing around that got blown out of proportion (say, a soldier used his gun to block the sword of a Japanese soldier rushing against him in the trench and his gun broke/fell apart from the encounter), or more likely, propaganda, likely on both sides. On the Japanese side they naturally hyped up their mass-produced swords as the best thing since lukewarm water (since that's what armies do to all their equipment, no matter how old. just look at North Korea), and on the American side as well, for psychological reasons. To put it bluntly, it was so that the soldiers would feel more threatened and would have less reservations when it came to shooting guys only armed with cheap replica swords. After all, those are dangerous, they can cut through a gun barrel and sever you in half, you know...
haha that story is a funny one.

When Hank Reinhardt attempted to track down the story of katana cutting through machine gun barrels,
it seemed to have happened in Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and several other islands
- this led him to conclude Japanese soldiers had a pathological hatred of machine-gun barrels, and he wondered why they never? tried to cut down the gunner.
That, or there was just this one really, really talented samurai guy who went from one theater of war to the next in an epic rampage of revenge against the gun that killed his father or something. :p

Also, I actually found a handy manual on cutting gun barrels with a katana:

How to cut a machine gun barrel in half with a katana in three easy steps.

1) heat gun barrel to orange heat in forge.
2) place on anvil with katana across barrel
3) hammer on back of katana until gun barrel is cut in two.
3a) Throw katana in metal scrap bucket, and use chisel next time.

But with all seriousness, the origin of the myth probably came from a Japanese propaganda movie where they "demonstrated" how a katana can cut a gun barrell, except the gun was just a wooden replica. That, or some Chinese training manual from the period saying that one should only need to concentrate enough and would be able to cut a gun barrel.

Or wait, are we sure they were cutting "gun barrel"s? Maybe they were cutting actual barrels they kept their guns or ammunition in and something was lost in translation...?