Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills

[phantasmalWordsmith]

I got a B grade at GCSE maths but I could've gone and done A-levels. Chose not to. So middle of the road, mathmatical skills come up every so often but I've probably gotten rusty with higher level stuff

And I have yet to see hat the OP described (mostly because all of my friends have decent maths skills) but from the sounds of it, seeing something like that would kill me a little on the inside. I used to hear phrases like "We don't need maths" from a lot of individuals at my school when we were young and less mature (read:intelligent). Made me want to punch them but I wouldn't

 

[Whateveralot]

Note that I'm a business-to-business sales representative at the company I work for, keeping around 150 business customers satisfied all days of the year. I don't work at a bank and I would hardly need maths, if I wanted to.

However, being relatively clever in maths (was one of my best classes back in school), it allows me to do stuff pretty fast. This helps me daily, but it's no necessity.

 

[tensorproduct]

My issue with such things, like the order of operations, is nobody will explain WHY we HAVE to use the order of operations. Why is using any other method not legitimate?

See my earlier post. The order of operations is completely arbitrary.

The explanations offered by Darkmantle and poiumty explain some of the reasons that we use this particular arbitrary evaluation rule (that multiplication is treated as repeated addition so it makes sense to do it earlier). Also, treating division/multiplication and addition/subtraction as inverse operations with the same level of priority makes equation manipulation (like cancelling something from both sides of an equals) far easier (even if it is a slight misconception).

Ultimately, written maths is a language, and a language relies on consistent interpretation to convey meaning. If we don't all use the same set of rules, then a written formula might be interpreted to mean something far different from what the author intended.

 

[Agayek]

Personally I was always taught that you just go left > right if you end up with something like 2/4*3. As opposed to trying to create an ordered acronym for it. Not sure how "right" that is in terms of really important math but if figure if they really wanted me to multiply 4*2 before dividing my 2 they would just use brackets (parenthesis).

Which is the proper way to go about it. If you strictly follow PEMDAS in the example you gave here, you'd get 0.166666, while if you swapped the order, you'd get 1.5

When it's written like that, you should absolutely go left to right first. Otherwise, you'd have to worry about keeping track of numerators and denominators on top of everything else.

 

[Xyliss]

I'm always confused by the order of operations because I was taught BODMAS first.
Brackets
Powers (forgot what the word was but it's exponents)
Division
Multiplication
Addition
Subtraction

So as you can see Division and Multiplication is switched from PEMDAS, makes it kinda confusing sometimes.
The only use for it in my daily life is Teamfortress 2 Warioware mod

As a maths teacher I was taught this way and I teach it this way...tbh the division and multiplication doesn't make a huge difference in what order it is in.
OT: so yea, I use maths all the time...but I think that it's cheating for me to say so

 

[Kragg]

I'm always confused by the order of operations because I was taught BODMAS first.
Brackets
Powers (forgot what the word was but it's exponents)
Division
Multiplication
Addition
Subtraction

So as you can see Division and Multiplication is switched from PEMDAS, makes it kinda confusing sometimes.
The only use for it in my daily life is Teamfortress 2 Warioware mod

could be, might be because devisions and multiplications GO AT THE SAME TIME so it doesnt really matter in what order you do those

all i know is
( )
^2
/ AND *
+ AND -

never was taught any nice words for em though XD

neither was I, we actually understood what we were doing though, and we didn't get out aunt Sally involved or whatever

people who don't get that multiplication and division are the same do not even grasp that 6/3 is the same as 6*(1/3)

the facebook stuff is a combination of people being stupid, people being lemmingsand following what other people say, people just using their phone/calculator for a calculation and using it wrong, or people using their aunt sally for unholy things but not math

 

[Kragg]

Well, division is multiplication by the reciprocal. I'm not entirely sure when the order of the two would matter that much. I'm pretty sure you can switch subtraction/addition around and it would still give you the same result.

Not at all. 7/1*9 can either be 7*9 or 7/9 which are totally different.

Here's an example of people bumbling over basic algebra:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110428210248AA7we0U

Using math notation, it'd be easy to figure out whether the 9 is in the numerator or denominator position. To specify whether a number is in the denominator position without using the straight horizontal line, the only solution I know is to use parenthesis beforeafter the / sign. So when there's none, I consider only the number after / to be the denominator and anything after that to follow the fraction.

edit: also, I'm an engineer but I don't really like math. Isn't working out so well, no.

well you say "I consider" but that is not how it works on normal notation, when you calculate bigger problem yes, you use scientific notation and dont type your stuff in MSword or whatever but you cant start making up your own rules

7/1*9 means only 1 thing 7*9

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Those things on facebook aren't really difficult maths, they're just designed to be confusing. What bugs me is that there are people on my course who can't add up a couple of two digit numbers and have no concept of how long 3000mm is. I'm studying building surveying, most of it is measuring buildings, drawing up the plan of them, then making a model with CAD. If you can't add up two numbers, you're buggered.

 

[BrotherRool]

I'm good at maths. I got a gold in the Senior Maths Challenge for last year (the top 40% of entrants get medals, which are handed out in a 3:2:1 ratio of bronze to silver to gold), and went on to take part in the European Kangaroo, where I got a mark of 45. The average mark was 25, for comparison's sake. I got an A* in Maths at A-level, and disappointingly, only an A in Further Maths. For those who've not take those courses, regular Maths deals with things like simple calculus, trigonometry, the binomial expansion and an introduction to vectors, while Further Maths deals in complex numbers, polar co-ordinates, matrices, vectors in three dimensions, differential equations, Taylor series and more complicated calculus.

I'm studying Physics with Theoretical Physics at university, though the actual teaching doesn't start until Monday. Also, Brian Cox is delivering my lectures on Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

Ahh I'm so jealous of all your smarts, this is the problem with growing older, suddenly all these darn young people have achieved things you'll never achieve . Well I can take comfort in you ending up getting the same grades as me, despite having way more success in the Olympiads. Also you took physics, which every mathematician knows is just left over maths. I mean the stuff you do actually has relevance to the universe, doesn't sound very proper to me

------------------
OT I'm a 3rd year mathematician student, so I hope my skills don't completely suck, but I have no intention of using them in any practical way unless it's to get a job doing even more proper maths. Once you have the knowledge, just reapplying it again and again is boring, I can't stand applied modules (except for statistics where intelligence is still required, being more about the interpretation), the fun is constantly gaining new knowledge.

Luckily the purpose of any civilised society is clearly to support mathematicians and to let them do their cool pure stuff that divines patterns in the very fundamentals of existence in comfort, so I'm okay =D

 

[Zyst]

As a former Math and Physics student and current Computer Science student I weep every time I see a person get one of this wrong, thus "Super important"

Still, as a computer science student you are taught to make the operation as simple as humanely possible by using 'redundant' parenthesis because you never know how a compiler is going to behave and every single respectable compiler does at least respect parenthesis first so:

1+5*5-7/1*9

becomes:

(1+(5*5)-(7/(1*9))

This way no one can really get it wrong without being really really stupid, and a compiler won't really ever get it wrong.

 

[Darkmantle]

My issue with such things, like the order of operations, is nobody will explain WHY we HAVE to use the order of operations. Why is using any other method not legitimate?

See my earlier post. The order of operations is completely arbitrary.

The explanations offered by Darkmantle and poiumty explain some of the reasons that we use this particular arbitrary evaluation rule (that multiplication is treated as repeated addition so it makes sense to do it earlier). Also, treating division/multiplication and addition/subtraction as inverse operations with the same level of priority makes equation manipulation (like cancelling something from both sides of an equals) far easier (even if it is a slight misconception).

Ultimately, written maths is a language, and a language relies on consistent interpretation to convey meaning. If we don't all use the same set of rules, then a written formula might be interpreted to mean something far different from what the author intended.

I don't think "arbitrary" is the right word to use. It's not random, and it's not on a whim. There is a definite logical system.

"" ar·bi·trar·y -Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.""

 

[theSteamSupported]

To all of you who argue about the order of operations:

Would you like juice or water with ice?

 

[Lizardon]

I don't like the acronyms, they suggest multiplication becomes before division (or the other way around) and addition before subtraction. So people who learnt it as PEDMAS will do it differently than people who learnt PEMDAS. All the maths teachers I had were reluctant to mention the acronym as they believed we would remember the mnemonic, and forget that multiplication and division have equal priority.

The "true" order of operations would be
Parenthesis
Indices
Multiplication and Division going left to right
Addition and Subtraction going left to right.

As for my education, I'm currently doing second year mathematics as part of my Chemistry/Physics double major. So I do use it in my day to day life in that regard.

 

[scw55]

I do hate pointless terminology of maths. It makes it more complicated than it actually is and makes the person who understands it get a false sense of intellectual superiority.

I think maths is important especially if you play video games.

On branch of maths that often gets misunderstood is statistics. People fall into common traps of:

a) A 60% chance to block + another 60% chance = 100% to block.
NO. It's 60% plus 60% of the remaining 40% to fail. So the answer is 84% chance to block. It is closer to 100% than 60%, but it's still 16% away.

b) Reducing effectiveness on stacking random effect chance, crit. It is true that by stacking crit chance, you will do more damage, and the damage will increase flatly consistently. But what people don't consider is % damage increase.
Going from 1% crit to 3% crit gives a lot more extra damage than 67% crit to 69% crit. As a result ideally you shouldn't want to exceed a 50% chance to crit.

c) Understanding the probability of random drops. An example is the Reins of the Ravenlord in WoW (a mount). It had like a 4% drop chance? You could only do the thing which gave a chance of it dropping once per day.
It was correct to assume that statistically you had a better chance of obtaining it within the first 25 days then any days after that.

Unfortunately, when it came to 'coming back the next day', some people believe that magically they had a greater chance of getting the mount based on the facts of the first day. They thought that they will get it by x days. No. Sadly and depressingly, every-time you return and kill the boss, it's a fresh 4% chance and a fresh 25 days FROM THAT NEW TIME.


Statistics are constantly misunderstood by humans beings who subconsciously believe in an aspect of fate or luck. At the end of the day statistics are about perspective.

You can make a prediction in the past that stays true. But it can conflict with a fresh prediction today. But regardless, the past prediction is still correct. Statistics are something which I doubt the human mind can ever fully grasp. I am guilty of misunderstanding statistics in everyday settings myself.

 

[Yopaz]

Basic university maths is the highest I have had to study, but I need math a lot because I do a lot of chemistry which is a lot of applied math. I am decent at algebra and I find it entertsining to do, but I am not really good at math as a whole.

 

[Sande45]

The Order of Operations is P.E.M.D.A.S.
Parenthesis
Exponents
Multiplication
Division
Addition
Subtraction

What is this blasphemy?

It's
Parenthesis
Exponents (/Roots (same thing really))
Multiplication (/Division)
Addition (/Subtraction)

Maybe it's an American (edit: Wikipedia says similar acronyms are used for example in Canada and UK. What's wrong with everybody?) thing to teach them all weird. Here in Finland they never found it necessary to say multiplication before division when they're basically the same damn calculation and their order makes no difference.

 

[Arina Love]

i'm no good with numbers so i don't use math at all, barely passed it in university and forgot everything next year when started learning profession orientated stuff. Actually i struggle with simple add and subtract, so if i need something calculated i just use calculator.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

I was never even taught that. And right up until GCSE (16) My entire class were taught that if you saw a multiply by 0, then the answer was zero.

I was quite surprised when five years later everyone started going on about BODMAS and why multiplication by zero suddenly isn't automatically zero. Either some massive shift in mathematics occured or my school had some pretty lax standards. (and I don't care. Seriously, don't explain it to me, I will neither read it nor absorb the information.)

Because part 2 is: Unless you work in a math intensive field, you will never need anything more than addition, subtraction, and perhaps basic multiplication. The burden of mathematics has been taken off us, with these amazing tools called calculators. We have them on phones, we have them on computers, we have them in the original form. There is no need to worry about math, because you don't need it.

What exactly will you need the quadratic equation for? When your maths teacher told you you could use Pythagoras to help keep your garden tidy did it not occur to you that you could just use common sense and judge it by sight without having to take exact measurements of the hedges?

No one would nowadays ask you to make fire with flint and stone, so why do we still accuse people who use calculators of somehow 'cheating' at maths? Humans use tools, we always have and we always will, and so not to use them is in fact evolutionarily backwards.

 

[The_Echo]

Math isn't very important to me at all. Anything beyond elementary school math just seems kind of superfluous unless you're going into a field that requires more. Which, uh, I won't be.

I'm not very good at math. Ever since sixth grade, I've only just barely scraped by in my math classes. Very consistent Ds. I failed my geometry class and was given a P in intermediate algebra. (For those who don't know, a "P" is essentially an F that lets you pass. Generally only given if a teacher is merciful.) I also failed Algebra II, which prevented me from graduating on time.
[sub]She could've just given me a P...[/sub]

Part of me is convinced I was just cursed with horrible teachers. When I retook geometry and first semester algebra II (I took consumer math in place of second semester) in an online credit recovery course, I got a final grade of B both times. In the brick-and-mortar classes, I actually wound up dreading being there, to the point of suffering from math anxiety [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_anxiety] for a month or two. I wasn't capable of grasping the concepts as quick as I was required (literally a new concept every day or two).

So. I don't really like math.

 

[tensorproduct]

My issue with such things, like the order of operations, is nobody will explain WHY we HAVE to use the order of operations. Why is using any other method not legitimate?

See my earlier post. The order of operations is completely arbitrary.

The explanations offered by Darkmantle and poiumty explain some of the reasons that we use this particular arbitrary evaluation rule (that multiplication is treated as repeated addition so it makes sense to do it earlier). Also, treating division/multiplication and addition/subtraction as inverse operations with the same level of priority makes equation manipulation (like cancelling something from both sides of an equals) far easier (even if it is a slight misconception).

Ultimately, written maths is a language, and a language relies on consistent interpretation to convey meaning. If we don't all use the same set of rules, then a written formula might be interpreted to mean something far different from what the author intended.

I don't think "arbitrary" is the right word to use. It's not random, and it's not on a whim. There is a definite logical system.

"" ar·bi·trar·y -Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.""

Oh, there is a logical* system. But it's not the only such system that we could apply to evaluating strings of symbols. PEDMAS is perfectly valid, but no more so than strict left-to-right or right-to-left evaluation. It's certainly not objectively better in anyway.

When I say arbitrary, what I mean is that our choice of that system over all of the others that are perfectly equivalent is arbitrary, but when we have chosen a set of rules they must be applied consistently in order to be useful.


*That's a pretty loaded word in this context.