Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills

[Vegosiux]

I have half a mind to say "If you can actually find a number in it, it's not really math" but I suppose that'd sound a little too snobbish.

That said, I find math can be rather fun, and it's one of my favorite things to confuse people with.

Ain't it beautiful?

 

[Shadow flame master]

Seeing as I'm trying to get a degree in computer engineering, math is very important to me.

 

[barbzilla]

I find people who call people dumb for not knowing order of operations to be assholes. Knowing one procedure or not does not even being to factor into intelligence or knowledge. I took multi-variable calculus in College. I have yet to use it outside of the class.

I never went so far as to call anybody dumb. As a matter of fact if you read my posts I blame the school systems and not the individual. When you are dealing with this large of a crowd forgetting something, it is usually a retention problem. I did say I found it disturbing though. And it is true that I find it disturbing.

I didn't say that I was referring to you. I just happen to have seen many many assholes in my time and was making a comment about them. I don't blame the schools, mostly because my mother is a teacher and I know this gets taught. I also know it gets forgotten because after algebra math tends to involve work that doesn't use OoO that much and focuses on other areas and skills. Not to mention that most jobs don't require using calculation that involve a complex arrangement of operations and the human minds tend to break down problems into things less complex then this.

Ah, I'm sorry for jumping to that conclusion then. I am used to people quoting me and the first comment being a reflection on that quote. I am actually working on becoming a physics teacher, so I can understand your view point on the schools. Unfortunately this is one of our weak points in the US and that is why I want to teach. If I can improve one person's life I will take that opportunity. The individual takes some responsibility in the loss of that knowledge as well, but if it is properly drilled in it will not suddenly go away.


Captcha: ticked off (captca u mad bro?)

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

Since I am a science major I take the basic advanced math, Calculus physics so it's very important to me, especially when I am doing lab work.

 

[TheOtter]

I have Dyscalculia and am unable to really perform anything above really basic algebra. It is quite sad really. I had straight A's in school, except for my math courses. I simply can't do it. I tried tutors, one on one...everything. Most people just laugh and call me lazy or stupid. It gets really discouraging.

However, my field was public relations so no math was required there - though I somehow stumbled into Network Engineering. I'm working with my college to see if we can make some substitutions for the math courses. I really wish I could do the awesome stuff everything in this thread is talking about, it sounds cool.

 

[NoeL]

Are you talking about the 4 x 4 + 4 - 4... one? Yeah, following order of operations the answer is 20, but because so many people are illiterate of Grade 1 mathematics the comments were filled with "320"s. I'm sure the majority of them just plugged the equation into a standard calculator and spat out the answer it gave them, confident in the math skills of a machine. If they used a scientific calculator they would have at least gotten the right result!

The PEMDAS/BODMAS mnemonic is good, though it implies that multiplication/division and addition/subtraction have an order of operation, when they're actually evaluated left to right. Should be more like P.E.M/D.A/S., or get rid of division and subtraction altogether since division is just multiplying by the reciprocal and subtraction is adding the negative. But I guess that's too complex for 5 year olds.

 

[Techsmart07]

Yes, I use math a lot. At work, I use math all the time (I write front-end software and navigation tools for PLC systems). Seeing as I am going back to school to get a second degree in physics with a minor in math... yeah...

Can someone explain to me why the Order of Operations is a thing? It seems like having it just changes the way we write mathematical expressions.

Order of Operations is intended to give everybody has a common baseline for reading equations. For example, take (4+1/2)*2.
With order of operations, we have 9 (divide 1 by 2, then add 4, then multiply by 2).
Without it, someone could make the mistake of saying the answer was 5 (if they added before dividing).
Even if the original equation was intended for the solution to be 9, if there wasn't a consistent order to approach these things, these kinds of misunderstandings would happen all the time.
It's just like any other ruleset. It is there to eliminate confusion between multiple individuals.

 

[Vegosiux]

We don't want something like 9/2*7 to have two different possible valid answers, so we have the order of operations to tell us what is meant by this.

The expression you listed is precisely why we write fractions with numerator above the denominator (and why writing them in one line is so clumsy), and division indeed becomes unambiguous as multiplication with the reciprocal and we don't need parentheses to define which is which.

 

[The Ubermensch]

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3)= either 2 or 288 depending on whether you multiply or divide first

Multiplication and division hold no precedence over each other as division is simply the inverse function of multiplication (IE divide by two or multiply my .5 yield the same results), like how - 1 and + -1 mean the same thing.

Think of it this way, after the 3rd grade you never use the symbol ÷ again, rather you put what you want divided on top of a line, and what you want it divided by on the bottom of the line, and the line has a dual role as a parenthesis.

order of operations should be thought of more like this

Parenthesis AND Indices
Multiplication AND Division
Addition AND Subtraction

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3) is the same as 48/2*(9+3)

So... there's only one answer there.

No because you always go left to right. Whilst parenthesis and exponents come first, for operations of equal rank (multiplication and division, addition and subtraction) you go left to right. The answer is always 288.

uh huh... you're wrong but I've had this argument too many times with too many people who con only just comprehend basic high school mathematics to go into it again. I'm going to simply state that the order of operations as I have stated it is the only thing you need to worry about, that Japanese write down and backwards, and then rest assured that my university level mathematical knowledge is correct.

There are 2 correct answers to my example equation because it is written poorly. I broke math, deal with it.

 

[frizzlebyte]

The highest level of math I've had is calculus so I'm confident in my basic math skills (cue horrendously stupid math mistake in 5...)

I think the problem is the way they teach math. No one trys to explain what's being done on any deeper level and if you don't just naturally see it then you're fucked. I remember my friend being confused as hell when we were going over soh cah toa in algebra. I spent like ten minutes explaining the basis of it (trig) being the unit circle and it immediatly clicked for him. Took me ten minutes what the shit teacher couldn't do in an hour, simply 'cause they didn't bother to explain the "philosophy" of what was being done.

I'm not even all that great at math. I'm pretty sure Calc is the limit (ha!) of my math skills.

This. If my math teachers could explain the "why", I would get it a lot better. As it is, I'm reconsidering getting a degree in comp. sci. because just basic college algebra makes me want to scream.

 

[The Ubermensch]

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=48%2F2*%289%2B3%29+%3D+2

No, we're quite right. I hope you didn't pay too much for that 'university level mathematical knowledge'. There's only one correct answer and it does not even take basic algebra to know it.

Just so show that that could be a programming error...

also the way you wrote that... the "All over" line also HAS A DUAL FUNCTION AS A PARENTHESES

/ =/= ÷ because / = ÷ AND ()

as no one uses ÷ when writing an equation I'm unsure as to whether or not wolfram has the correct programming for the symbol, but regardless, if you're using Wolfram for your fact checking in any field you probably don't belong in university.

Shit like this is why Idiotocracy is a true story from the future. Rather than learn a field "I'll just wiki it". Mathematics has a theoretical side as much as any scientific field; some mathematicians don't even consider numbers to be real... so yeah, day to day your understanding is fine, but you have barely scratched the surface.

 

[Rems]

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3)= either 2 or 288 depending on whether you multiply or divide first

Multiplication and division hold no precedence over each other as division is simply the inverse function of multiplication (IE divide by two or multiply my .5 yield the same results), like how - 1 and + -1 mean the same thing.

Think of it this way, after the 3rd grade you never use the symbol ÷ again, rather you put what you want divided on top of a line, and what you want it divided by on the bottom of the line, and the line has a dual role as a parenthesis.

order of operations should be thought of more like this

Parenthesis AND Indices
Multiplication AND Division
Addition AND Subtraction

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3) is the same as 48/2*(9+3)

So... there's only one answer there.

No because you always go left to right. Whilst parenthesis and exponents come first, for operations of equal rank (multiplication and division, addition and subtraction) you go left to right. The answer is always 288.

uh huh... you're wrong but I've had this argument too many times with too many people who con only just comprehend basic high school mathematics to go into it again. I'm going to simply state that the order of operations as I have stated it is the only thing you need to worry about, that Japanese write down and backwards, and then rest assured that my university level mathematical knowledge is correct.

There are 2 correct answers to my example equation because it is written poorly. I broke math, deal with it.

I agree with your comment on the order of operations, multiplication and division and then addition and subtraction are equally ranked. It is still correct however to progress from left to right.

The Japanese do set things down vertically from right to left. But guess what, they also set things out horizontally like in English. In fact this horizontal style is often used for the sciences, mathematics, business documents etc. So i'm not sure what your point is when you say that the Japanese sometimes write vertically.

You're also not proving anything with your calculator example. It's no surprise you get the wrong answer when you set the problem out wrong.

48 divided by 2 * (9+3) can be written as:

48
_______ x (9+3)

2


Or as:

48 (9+3)
_____ x _________

2 1

There is only 1 answer to either. It's 288.

 

[The Ubermensch]

Spoiler: Snip

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3)= either 2 or 288 depending on whether you multiply or divide first

Multiplication and division hold no precedence over each other as division is simply the inverse function of multiplication (IE divide by two or multiply my .5 yield the same results), like how - 1 and + -1 mean the same thing.

Think of it this way, after the 3rd grade you never use the symbol ÷ again, rather you put what you want divided on top of a line, and what you want it divided by on the bottom of the line, and the line has a dual role as a parenthesis.

order of operations should be thought of more like this

Parenthesis AND Indices
Multiplication AND Division
Addition AND Subtraction

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3) is the same as 48/2*(9+3)

So... there's only one answer there.

No because you always go left to right. Whilst parenthesis and exponents come first, for operations of equal rank (multiplication and division, addition and subtraction) you go left to right. The answer is always 288.

uh huh... you're wrong but I've had this argument too many times with too many people who con only just comprehend basic high school mathematics to go into it again. I'm going to simply state that the order of operations as I have stated it is the only thing you need to worry about, that Japanese write down and backwards, and then rest assured that my university level mathematical knowledge is correct.

There are 2 correct answers to my example equation because it is written poorly. I broke math, deal with it.

I agree with your comment on the order of operations, multiplication and division and then addition and subtraction are equally ranked. It is still correct however to progress from left to right.

The Japanese do set things down vertically from right to left. But guess what, they also set things out horizontally like in English. In fact this horizontal style is often used for the sciences, mathematics, business documents etc. So i'm not sure what your point is when you say that the Japanese sometimes write vertically.

My point is that simply saying "it must be done left to right" isn't a sufficient enough rule if we consider mathematics to be a universal law. Consider an alien race that reads backwards or simply has a rule that says equations must be done right to left (and probably use octal), that's what I'm talking about when I mentioned the Japanese. If you write an equation properly then your left to right rule doesn't even matter.

My equation is a trick equation because its written poorly, as I said you stop writing out division equations on a single line after the 3rd grade.

 

[scorptatious]

Math never really was my strong suit. Hell, I ended up having to take a remedial course in my community college I did so poorly at it.

Now-a-days, I can do PEMDAS alright, so I can do some basic math work. But I would need to write problems out on paper in order to solve them.

I've also seen someone post a PEMDAS problem on my Facebook. It was a PEMDAS problem that asked you to either like or share depending on what you think the answer is. The correct answer I believe was the one for the share button. And it seemed like nobody pressed the like button.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Well, let's be honest. Unless you're going into a specialized field, most people don't *need* anything beyond the basic levels of Math. As far as daily life is concerned, you're golden so long as you know how to operate a calculator.

Given that I'm going into WRITING, no, I do not need Math, and I wouldn't want it as I find it to be a slow, tedious pain in the ass. I am-or was-at a typical college level of algebra, but I immediately stopped taking those classes once I had my credits. From here on out, all I need is a calculator to do my taxes.

 

[Rems]

My point is that simply saying "it must be done left to right" isn't a sufficient enough rule if we consider mathematics to be a universal law. Consider an alien race that reads backwards or simply has a rule that says equations must be done right to left (and probably use octal), that's what I'm talking about when I mentioned the Japanese. If you write an equation properly then your left to right rule doesn't even matter.

My equation is a trick equation because its written poorly, as I said you stop writing out division equations on a single line after the 3rd grade.

Alright yes it is a convention that we use. This is the method adopted. So what?

We need that convention for consistency. It is sufficient enough for purposes of consistency and teaching basic math. Yes it becomes unnecessary at higher level (or properly done) math but this discussion (or i at least) wasn't referring to that. I was specifically addressing your 'trick' question that you posited had two answers. No it doesn't.

If only has two answers if you do it wrong.

So we agree i guess??

 

[piinyouri]

I can do most math problems alright, just can't, and never have been able to do them in my head.

Just curious, did anyone else's grade school teachers teach them how to count by that infuriating "Tap and tally" system?

That shit was horrid, and fucked me up for the longest time until I managed to unlearn it.

 

[The Ubermensch]

My point is that simply saying "it must be done left to right" isn't a sufficient enough rule if we consider mathematics to be a universal law. Consider an alien race that reads backwards or simply has a rule that says equations must be done right to left (and probably use octal), that's what I'm talking about when I mentioned the Japanese. If you write an equation properly then your left to right rule doesn't even matter.

My equation is a trick equation because its written poorly, as I said you stop writing out division equations on a single line after the 3rd grade.

Alright yes it is a convention that we use. This is the method adopted. So what?

We need that convention for consistency. It is sufficient enough for purposes of consistency and teaching basic math. Yes it becomes unnecessary at higher level (or properly done) math but this discussion (or i at least) wasn't referring to that. I was specifically addressing your 'trick' question that you posited had two answers. No it doesn't.

If only has two answers if you do it wrong.

So we agree i guess??

On parts of the concept yes, but on others no. I was never taught the "left to right" methodology for "basic" (read flawed) mathematics

However to go on about it would be simply nit picking

 

[Evil Smurf]

I am good at maths but I like creating things more

 

[The Ubermensch]

My point is that simply saying "it must be done left to right" isn't a sufficient enough rule if we consider mathematics to be a universal law. Consider an alien race that reads backwards or simply has a rule that says equations must be done right to left (and probably use octal), that's what I'm talking about when I mentioned the Japanese. If you write an equation properly then your left to right rule doesn't even matter.

My equation is a trick equation because its written poorly, as I said you stop writing out division equations on a single line after the 3rd grade.

Your right to left argument is stupid, by that logic we shouldn't say that 3 + 3 = 6 because maybe to them the + means division. No conventions for how math is written are a universal law, your argument applies to far too many things.

#OverSimplifyingAdvancedConceptsForThoseOfYouWhoRelyOnWikipediaAndOtherOpenSourceInternetDatabases