Co-op games are more problematic then PvP. Two enemies will get along gaming, if you don't it matters little. When a group working together starts to fall apart its hell.
Poll: "Lack of skill" of other players is not a legit justification for being an asshole
- Thread starter Jacco
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GTA:O sounds like a terrible game, if you ask me...
Any game that "rewards" the player for just playing for long periods of time IN MULTIPLAYER mode is terrible, in my mind. I prefer something like Unreal Tournament or older Halo games (Specifically Halo CE). FYI: Every single player has the same shields, same health, same weapons, etc from start and need to get better things by knowing where they are on the map and getting there quickly...
To all of those players who uses tanks non-stop in GTA:O, I tell they are pathetic fools and should really get rid of that heavy OP crap and get into a pistol fight with me... If you can headshot kill people at sniper-long range with a pistol (Pistol{Magnum} is btw best weapon EVER; only thing better is bottomless clip Sniper Rifles), now that's skill! A tank? Dude, you are pathetic... All you need to do is aim close enough and shoot once. Nothing else...
Anyways. I hope that gives you an idea where I stand on this type of stuff.
Any game that "rewards" the player for just playing for long periods of time IN MULTIPLAYER mode is terrible, in my mind. I prefer something like Unreal Tournament or older Halo games (Specifically Halo CE). FYI: Every single player has the same shields, same health, same weapons, etc from start and need to get better things by knowing where they are on the map and getting there quickly...
To all of those players who uses tanks non-stop in GTA:O, I tell they are pathetic fools and should really get rid of that heavy OP crap and get into a pistol fight with me... If you can headshot kill people at sniper-long range with a pistol (Pistol{Magnum} is btw best weapon EVER; only thing better is bottomless clip Sniper Rifles), now that's skill! A tank? Dude, you are pathetic... All you need to do is aim close enough and shoot once. Nothing else...
Anyways. I hope that gives you an idea where I stand on this type of stuff.
Well sure, we can agree that there's no justification for being an asshole, but then who needs justification to be an asshole? Do you think people who unleash torrents of abuse are sitting there considering the moral implications of their behaviour? No, they're just being dicks because the game in question allows them to be dicks, whether through the mechanics or lack of moderation.Eamar said:
No no, I'm sure having people actively interfere with you actually playing the game and laughing in your face all the time is a truly remarkable experience. And cussing up a storm via microphone is brilliant conversation, leet is a good replacement for actually typing words, and Anonymous is truly the heart and soul of V For Vendetta.versoth said:
Pffft, no. THAT was the sarcasm right there.
The OP's 'lovely' experience with the GTA online game would be the equivalent of my reeming you with massive flaming, abusive as all hell and no mercy in sight, paragraph after paragraph of demeaning and nasty language all designed to crush your spirit (and I HAVE that power), and no mod revenge from the staff...warnings or otherwise. It would be as though I had free reign to make your Escapist experience here a living hell, no reprisals.
Instead of that, I have some respect that you perhaps misunderstand my position, explain myself more thoroughly, and will go on my merry way, confident that I have made my point without hammering toes flat. PvP is just another excuse to be an ass in this case, and don't tell me otherwise because this is a clear abuse of the privilege.
As far as GTA:O goes, I agree with you. When you're level 12, with hardly any weapons or money, then taking out tanks or even guys with long range weapons who hunt you down is basically impossible, certainly in a 1v1 situation.Jacco said:
I'm going to take you to task a little on the Battlefield thing though!
Firstly, I agree 100% that most of the denizens of the Battlelog forums are pretty toxic and hostile. They tend to be utterly stat obsessed (in a game where stats aren't that important!) and pretty unpleasant. That said, when it comes to people complaining that gun X, Y or Z needs a nerf, I believe that 9/10 times, the complainer hasn't seen the bigger picture.
I'm going to go ahead and assume that the "most powerful class weapons" you refer to are the LMG's. I run the support class a lot at the moment - mainly because now that ammo boxes aren't mandatory for support, too many players don't carry them any more and ammo is much harder to get. I run the LMG a lot (specifically the M240), and LMG's are simply *not* the wonder gun people think.
They fall into two basic type - high rate of fire/low damage/poor accuracy, and low rate of fire/fair damage/decent accuracy. The pros and cons kinda balance out and basically the LMG will compete with most assault rifles at mid-long range in the hands of a capable user. Short controlled bursts are the key but you still need to be able to control the recoil. At short range, a PDW or shotgun will beat an LMG most times, unless you get the drop on the other guy. The biggest advantage to the belt-fed guns is the massive mag size, and the stupid amount of suppression you can lay on the other guys.
All the weapons have their pros and cons. Some are very scenario-specific (shotguns and PDWs are only good for small maps and short range engagements), some are good all rounders (Assault rifles and LMG's - but those are carried by primarily anti-infantry classes), and to be fair the carbines are pretty capable in most short-mid range situations and any class can carry them.
Personally, my biggest "grief" about Battlefield at the moment is the number of Assault players who don't revive and only drop combat med packs for themselves while they sit in one spot with the M320, and Support guys who don't carry ammo boxes. It's a team game, increasingly being played by lone wolves.
Assholes gonna ass...hole. People who are assholes behave as such. People who aren't don't. Assholes may think they have reasons, but who gives a shit what an asshole thinks?
IMO the next big MMO will be the one that figures out how to offer progression without creating a massive disparity in skill. How awesome would it be to have an expansion that did not kill all your raid gear from the last content dump, yet any player could still join a dungeon at any time?
In your case I agree with you, but I don't think your case has anything to do with your skill in the game and more to do with Rockstar's crappy server system. In games where PVP is always enabled, there should always be safeguards to ensure that really high level players can't just constantly grief the lower level players (servers that match people by level groups, private servers, or anti-griefing safeguards) and it seems to me like rockstar just didn't do that. At all.
If being a lower level means that you dont have access to any feasible tools to deal with his tank and he can just freely grief you then that is a flaw in game design and not player skill, and you have every right to be upset about this if it happens all the time to you.
In general though I disagree with your statement, especially when it pertains to games which require a lot of co-ordination with your teammates to be successful, games with high skill ceilings, and games where you are stuck with the same team for long periods of time. The worst case for this is in MOBAs which are the trifecta of these cases and results in very hostile communities because of it. But basically if I have to sit and play with you for a whole hour, and rely on you working well with us for us to not get roflstomped then if you are just terrible then yes you will directly influence my enjoyment of the game and waste up to an entire hour of my time. Generally I try to first give helpful advice to help the player improve, but if they aren't responsive to that advice then I will get frustrated and I may take that out on them slightly.
I understand that we were all noobs at the game at some point and we need to start somewhere, so I try to be patient with new players. The ones that really annoy me are the players that think they are THE SHIT and refuse to listen to any criticism or advice and just ruin the game for everyone.
If being a lower level means that you dont have access to any feasible tools to deal with his tank and he can just freely grief you then that is a flaw in game design and not player skill, and you have every right to be upset about this if it happens all the time to you.
In general though I disagree with your statement, especially when it pertains to games which require a lot of co-ordination with your teammates to be successful, games with high skill ceilings, and games where you are stuck with the same team for long periods of time. The worst case for this is in MOBAs which are the trifecta of these cases and results in very hostile communities because of it. But basically if I have to sit and play with you for a whole hour, and rely on you working well with us for us to not get roflstomped then if you are just terrible then yes you will directly influence my enjoyment of the game and waste up to an entire hour of my time. Generally I try to first give helpful advice to help the player improve, but if they aren't responsive to that advice then I will get frustrated and I may take that out on them slightly.
I understand that we were all noobs at the game at some point and we need to start somewhere, so I try to be patient with new players. The ones that really annoy me are the players that think they are THE SHIT and refuse to listen to any criticism or advice and just ruin the game for everyone.
'Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.'Owyn_Merrilin said:
Honestly, leveled load-outs it just makes it easier, not eliminates it entirely. In games like Halo, the right map - and/or the right weapon drops - can turn it into just as unpleasant, either because of a huge skill disparity or lag abuse.
I'm beginning to think online PVP games need to start implementing rules to structure the matches more along sports lines to penalize players who engage in what is either bullying or unsportsmanlike behavior. Turn the playing feild into a sportsfield, not a playground so to speak.
This.Eamar said:
It depends on the game I think.
Now, in your case OP, with people being able to drive tanks, and you not having any counterplay available, then no, those guys are asshats, and skill is irrelevant.
Even in WoW, it isn't really justifiable to be a dick to someone who has less skill than you, it doesn't help either player, both in pve and pvp it is important to have a network of players that you know are good and like playing with. That guy that you abused after playing arenas with him might in a few weeks be way better than you, but now because you've been a dick to him, he wont want to play with you. Something to keep in mind.
HOWEVER
In League of Legends where 90% of the community are fucking assholes that think they are the best thing to ever happen to the game, when really they are just the biggest bag of shit I have ever seen, then I'd say yes, it is justifiable to give them some shit. I wouldn't recommend it though, teams play better if everyone is getting along.
EDIT: Also what bothers me is idiots playing ranked. You know the type, the people who are mechanically awful, who can "only play mid" and always instalock ad karma.
GET THAT THE FUCK OUT OF RANKED AND BACK TO NORMAL.
I don't agree with people being assholes when you ask for help. If someone asks me for help with a game I try and help them because I want people to enjoy the same games I did. That being said "just get better" really is a legitimate statement. Just not a very nice one. If the game your playing is filled with people who are better than you and its frustrating then getting better is exactly what you need to do. You have to take personal responsibility at some point. Other gamers don't have an obligation to be accommodating to new players. Even more so if the game has a heavy basis on teamwork. If you have no clue what you are doing you should learn first not just expect other people to throw you a bone.
Windknight said:
And on the sports field, you use every advantage you have at your disposal. Most of the time these complaints come off as either someone crying that a game some little kid made up on the spot is unfair (well duh it's unfair, go play a real game that wasn't broken by design), or like they're complaining that, say, tackling in football is OP because they don't understand how defense works. Both complaints have a pretty easy solution, and it's not making changes to the current game.
There are two different aspects of gaming at work here and they, unfortunately, feed into each other.Jacco said:
First off, you are correct that you should not have to be "skilled" in a game to enjoy it, and for the most part new games are not designed for the elite gamer only. Many MMOs are designed so that anyone and everyone can hop in and start playing, the learning curve isn't so horrid that you have to have a degree in video games to get out of the starting zone. Unfortunately, that means ANYONE can join the game and, as you have learned, there is a sad fact about the gaming community we all must face: some gamers are @$$holes.
While we have fun taking up quests, exploring the world, crafting and selling items (I've not played GTA:O, so I'm pulling a lot of my knowledge here from WoW, Rift and Star Wars; if there is no crafting, sorry) and the occasional dungeon or PvP game, there are those who can ONLY have fun when they are ruining other people's day. These gamers will spend hundreds of hours and hundreds of dollars getting their characters up to the highest level so they can camp the starting points and "pwn noobs". That is the only way they can enjoy the game.
Psychologists believe the reason you see so many of this kind of person in the video gaming world is because it is a world they can easily manipulate and control. Gamers who find enjoyment in harming those who cannot defend themselves, they say, are people who feel they have no control or power in their own lives, people who feel they are being attacked by forces against which they are powerless and they are attempting to gain some control over some aspect of their lives. Others do it because there are no consequences for their actions and they indulge their curiosities and do what society has told them his wrong without fear of repercussions (the reason why some nice people will always choose the evil options in video games).
Now, the people you have met on the forum boards who are telling you to "quit whining" are not these types of gamers. Some might be, but most are probably victims of past "pwnages" who have learned the best way to beat them is to be stronger than them. When I first started playing WoW, my starting area got attacked by a group of high level players and when we asked for help via the World Chat, we were told to simply "deal with it or stop playing". Eventually, one of the "noobs" signed off and came back online with a higher level character she had for just such an occasion. After chasing the offenders away, she told me the only way she could enjoy the game was to have a "protector" character in storage. No one had helped her when she first started, she had to learn how to help herself.
Though it is the simplest solution, logging off when things get hairy often feels like surrender or that you are "admitting" that these bullies are "scaring" you with their "skills and power", but remember that these guys are only camping the spawn point because killing low level characters to them is fun. If people stop respawning, they will no have fun, they will get bored and leave.
Good luck.
To be perfectly honest, I have little sympathy for people that choose to play multiplayer games and then are unhappy with the fact that it requires having to deal with shitty people. That's just a part of life. People trash talk during sports and games even in real life, so it's no surprise that when you add the anonymity of the internet all those baser urges are increased tenfold. But that comes with the territory. That's why you can choose to mute people in many multiplayer games, choose games that have controlled PvP that matches your tastes, more to a different board if you don't like the people on the old one, and so on. You knew, or should have known, what you were getting into.
I've often heard the argument of "If you are losing get better...Quit playing if you have no skillz (lol!!)" on forums, in game etc. People like that are generally suffering from chronic assholia and cranial rectal inversion. Most importantly, people like this are doing these things out of some warped view of skill and a need to smack sundry and all with the size of their Epeen (so they can level that up too).
Some people think that if one spends enough time with a game they'll develop pro-level skills. This is demonstrably false as a statement. Others, think that to get good you should study builds, maps, weapon stats etc for hours before even jumping into the multiplayer. This is also false. This can really be summed as; The "leet skilled players" are trying to force everyone else to do exactly what they do because all other forms of play are invalid in their eyes. This is also something that is quickly provable to be false.
Some people think that if one spends enough time with a game they'll develop pro-level skills. This is demonstrably false as a statement. Others, think that to get good you should study builds, maps, weapon stats etc for hours before even jumping into the multiplayer. This is also false. This can really be summed as; The "leet skilled players" are trying to force everyone else to do exactly what they do because all other forms of play are invalid in their eyes. This is also something that is quickly provable to be false.
This kind of 'leet vs others' tude is what can make online gaming an unsavoury experience, which stopped me from playing Halo games online. I've recently been experiencing this while playing Payday 2. There are good players on there, who will give you a chance to prove yourself fairly. Now and then you get the opposite kind of player, who'll play Gaming Hitler, kick you from their game, if you deviate by the smallest measure or just judging by your stats (cause they say everything.
There's no need to do this and its the kind of power that gets abused a lot. For some its almost like they want to control their side of a game, as well as yours, which breaks the whole concept of co-op/multiplayer.
I'm glad I'm not like these people. Whenever I play online, I do my best to treat all gamers alike, new or experienced. If one lacks skills, I will try to teach and school them in the ways of a game. I think that its also about time that game designers consider gamifying the role of 'teacher' or 'sensei' in a game world, and give rewards for those who spend the time to tolerate and teach, than too easily kick players from games and abuse others.
There's no need to do this and its the kind of power that gets abused a lot. For some its almost like they want to control their side of a game, as well as yours, which breaks the whole concept of co-op/multiplayer.
I'm glad I'm not like these people. Whenever I play online, I do my best to treat all gamers alike, new or experienced. If one lacks skills, I will try to teach and school them in the ways of a game. I think that its also about time that game designers consider gamifying the role of 'teacher' or 'sensei' in a game world, and give rewards for those who spend the time to tolerate and teach, than too easily kick players from games and abuse others.
Hm...
The only part of this discussion I feel justified in latching onto is the 'justification for being an asshole' part, if only because Dark Souls is the only game with competitive (and Jolly Cooperative!) bits I play often.
Explanation out of the way, here's why I brought it up:
I like to invade now and then to show not all Darkwraiths are complete dick-blisters, I go around triggering traps before the host can be harmed by them, attack illusory walls to reveal them, try to lead the player toward items they might not have found yet, flip switches to open shortcuts, etc.
When the host finds me, usually using ineffective weapons and not wearing pants, I like to wave at them before making a half-hearted attempt to stab them once or twice before getting crushed, bad guy (me) is supposed to lose and all. I don't know if the easy wins I provide actually give them much of a confidence boost to face the nightmares Lordran assaults it's inhabitants with, but sometimes I meet people that don't recognize my charity in the slightest.
Recently, I invaded some prick in Anor Londo whom I didn't see right away, but repeatedly saw the sign that indicates he's trying to summon help (might have been poor connection or something) while I went around opening doors he hadn't gotten to yet. When I finally saw him, he stood still, so I waved at him, which, rather than returning the gesture or anything of the sort, he took as incentive to run up and attack me. You can't act at all when using emotes, so this is more than a little bit of a dick move on his part, any decent invader will at least bow or something if given the chance.
However, his weapon being a tad weak, I didn't get killed right away, him backing up and throwing lightning spears at me instead. I tried waving again when he slowed down, but he just didn't have patience for manners. My guess is he had been invaded many times before by less charitable wraiths and was panicking, the assumption that I meant him harm overriding decency, thereby probably 'justifying' his being an asshole.
As such, I felt no shame whatsoever in applying the Golden Rule and burning him to death with a few well-timed Combustions. I've actually jumped off cliffs or used the item that lets me just harmlessly go home in the conclusion to some of my invasions, but I know actually killing the guy was assholish. However, as explained, he was rude, so I have no regrets, and he almost got me anyway.
Short version: If you're pretty sure the other guy is being an asshole first, I think assholing right back is at least forgivable.
The only part of this discussion I feel justified in latching onto is the 'justification for being an asshole' part, if only because Dark Souls is the only game with competitive (and Jolly Cooperative!) bits I play often.
Basically, they are other players entering your game most likely with the intent to stab you dead, be it under fair circumstances or not. However, this is countered a little by the game restricting the level of the player you can invade to never being much below your own, you shouldn't see anyone dual-wielding Smough's greathammers that isn't hacking if you're only level 30 or so.
There are other kinds of invaders, but the same rule applies, no way for massively higher-leveled players to invade for easy kills, as far as I know, but there's no level limit for the one doing the invading. As in, a level 12 invader can wind up in the game of a level 362 host and be swiftly curb-stomped as they kindof deserve, having almost certainly only been there to bother the host in some way. The invader, in my experience, doesn't really lose anything, even the humanity normally lost for dying while human is unharmed, though they may have to walk a bit to recover souls and loose humanity where they were summoned.
I like this system because it feels perfectly in line with the rest of the game, the world in general notoriously murderous. If anything, the invaders are more likely to be on your skill level than half the monsters you'll meet, I think. The only issue is whether or not they're the sort that exploit cheap tricks at every opportunity, like some kind of glitch that apparently lets you backstab someone while in front of them, not a riposte, either.
There are other kinds of invaders, but the same rule applies, no way for massively higher-leveled players to invade for easy kills, as far as I know, but there's no level limit for the one doing the invading. As in, a level 12 invader can wind up in the game of a level 362 host and be swiftly curb-stomped as they kindof deserve, having almost certainly only been there to bother the host in some way. The invader, in my experience, doesn't really lose anything, even the humanity normally lost for dying while human is unharmed, though they may have to walk a bit to recover souls and loose humanity where they were summoned.
I like this system because it feels perfectly in line with the rest of the game, the world in general notoriously murderous. If anything, the invaders are more likely to be on your skill level than half the monsters you'll meet, I think. The only issue is whether or not they're the sort that exploit cheap tricks at every opportunity, like some kind of glitch that apparently lets you backstab someone while in front of them, not a riposte, either.
Explanation out of the way, here's why I brought it up:
I like to invade now and then to show not all Darkwraiths are complete dick-blisters, I go around triggering traps before the host can be harmed by them, attack illusory walls to reveal them, try to lead the player toward items they might not have found yet, flip switches to open shortcuts, etc.
When the host finds me, usually using ineffective weapons and not wearing pants, I like to wave at them before making a half-hearted attempt to stab them once or twice before getting crushed, bad guy (me) is supposed to lose and all. I don't know if the easy wins I provide actually give them much of a confidence boost to face the nightmares Lordran assaults it's inhabitants with, but sometimes I meet people that don't recognize my charity in the slightest.
Recently, I invaded some prick in Anor Londo whom I didn't see right away, but repeatedly saw the sign that indicates he's trying to summon help (might have been poor connection or something) while I went around opening doors he hadn't gotten to yet. When I finally saw him, he stood still, so I waved at him, which, rather than returning the gesture or anything of the sort, he took as incentive to run up and attack me. You can't act at all when using emotes, so this is more than a little bit of a dick move on his part, any decent invader will at least bow or something if given the chance.
However, his weapon being a tad weak, I didn't get killed right away, him backing up and throwing lightning spears at me instead. I tried waving again when he slowed down, but he just didn't have patience for manners. My guess is he had been invaded many times before by less charitable wraiths and was panicking, the assumption that I meant him harm overriding decency, thereby probably 'justifying' his being an asshole.
As such, I felt no shame whatsoever in applying the Golden Rule and burning him to death with a few well-timed Combustions. I've actually jumped off cliffs or used the item that lets me just harmlessly go home in the conclusion to some of my invasions, but I know actually killing the guy was assholish. However, as explained, he was rude, so I have no regrets, and he almost got me anyway.
Short version: If you're pretty sure the other guy is being an asshole first, I think assholing right back is at least forgivable.