catalyst8 said:
rutger5000 said:
catalyst8 said:
rutger5000 said:
Perfectly okay if your in a metal band, otherwise you're just making a fool of yourself. But if you want I won't stop you, maybe laugh at you, but that's all.
I'm curious about whether you laugh at women in make-up, as well as why you'd laugh at either & why you think men wearing make-up is foolish. Can you explain please?
Tollerance is different from accepting, and accepting is different from respecting.
I ussually snicker when I notice it, but that's besides the point. I wouldn't laugh out loud at a woman wearing make up for the same reason I wouldn't laugh at a toddler riding a bicycle, but would laugh at a grown man doing to same. Society has formed certain roles and customs for us the play, which roles and customs are appropriate for us depends on our age, gender, physical (dis)abilities, intelligence, weight, etc, etc.
When one chooses to disobey those roles / customs without doing harm to oneself or other, then I wouldn't stop that person. But it's wrong to automatically demand understanding and respect for doing so.
I find make - up effeminante, and don't understand most effeminante things. I've learned to accept it when woman are effeminante, but it boggles my mind when a man would choice to do so (except when said man is mentally a woman). As a reaction of my lack of understanding I'd laugh. Granted that might not be the kindest thing in the world to do, but I find it natrual.
I hope this satisfies your curiosity.
In return I'd like you to satisfy my curiosity: "Why did you ask me this question?" My statement isn't odd, neither is my defence of it. Most people would agree with me, so what about my statement made you so curious? Or where you just trying to ridiculise my point of view?
p.s. With that last remark I didn't try to ridiculise your question. I tried to ridiculise your attempt to ridiculise my point of view, if that attempt existed
I asked you because laughing at someone like that is both maliciously disrespectful & deliberately insulting. I was curious why you'd exhibit such ill-mannered behaviour in what seems a celebration of a bigoted double standard. Now I'm curious why you'd laugh at a man riding a bicycle, do you consider those effeminate too?
All prehistoric archaeological evidence suggests that men wore cosmetics long before women. The first historically documented cases show that men wore cosmetics before women in Menes Dynasty Egypt, & have continued to do so today in many cultures on many continents like Aboriginal Australians, Erbores in Ethiopia, American Indians like the Apache, numerous Europeans & North Americans who wear brightly coloured cosmetics to various sporting events, etc. During the 18th & 19th century it was considered fashionable & proper for both men & women to wear cosmetics in many of what are now considered to be 'Western' countries e.g. France & Regency England. It was only at the close of that century that the fashion fell out of favour.
It's important to draw distinctions between rules, roles, customs, & fashion. When you say 'disobey those roles / customs' you're demonstrating a misconception of the terms. Certainly a role is not a rule to be obeyed or disobeyed, & a custom is generally a matter of tradition & form which can be observed or disregarded in the same way that laughing at people is considered to be disregarding the custom of basic manners. In this particular aesthetic context 'fashion' denotes popularity of styles of appearance (literal definition 'a popular or the latest style of clothing, hair, or decoration' OED 2012), & that seems to be what you're mocking - something unfashionable.
If you genuinely find effeminate practices risible then presumably you laugh at clean-shaven men for exactly the same reason, because by your reasoning a beardless man is most certainly more effeminate than one wearing cosmetics. To my mind the ridicule is as bizarre as the Romans mocking Celts for wearing trousers because they considered covering the legs an effeminate practice. If one is to abide by the same reasoning then any male who makes a conscious choice about their appearance is effeminate, regardless of whether they wear a particular garment, have a particular haircut or even have their hair barbered at all.
EDIT: For Menes Dynasty please read Narmer Dynasty; while archaeologically they're considered synonymous the former might be considered an obscure term for the latter.
I apologize, my mastery over the English language isn't what it used to be. When I said bicycle, I meant tricycle, you know those tiny little things with paddles directly connected to the front wheel. I agree with you that disobey isn't the right word for what I was trying to say. I should have said "not follow along".
I agree that laughing at someone like that is indeed disrespectful, and I'm even willing to call it deliberately insulting, but to me calling it maliciously is going way way to far. It'd never be my intend to make someone feel miserable for being themselves. If I ever hurt emotional hurt someone with some mockery, then yes I'd feel bad about it. However I'd also realize that that wasn't my responsibility. Being mocked till some degree is the price of being yourself, if you can't pay that price, then work on yourself until you can. Keep in mind that mockery isn't the same as bullying, I'd stop if it's made clear that a line is crossed. And this comes from a guy who is being mocked on a daily basis. I don't mind that, I know I'm not normal, and I'm comfortable about that. I understand it, when people find me being different funny. As long as people still take me serious when it counts, then I wouldn't hold a grudge, and neither should a guy wearing make up.
Let me try to rephrase myself:
For every group of people there is a certain cultural norm which most members of that group follow. If you choice for whatever reason to deviate from that norm, and that deviation causes no harm to yourself or others, then you ought to have the freedom to do so. However others have the freedom not to respect or understand your choice, demanding otherwise isn't fair. Now personally I can respect and 'understand' that males sometimes feel like females and counterclockwise, and they feel comfortable to mimic the opposite gender.
But when a normal man choices to wear make up, in order to look 'pretty', then I find that silly, and I'd laugh at that.
As for your historical examples. Those are utterly irrelevant. That what was the cultural norm in the past is not necessarily the cultural norm of the present (Thank God for that). Culture isn't static, and neither the idea of that was is normal. As for the beard example. No I do not consider a clean shaven face effeminate. Yes a well kept beard is probably more manly then a clean shave, but it's still 'normal' for man not to have a beard. And in my mind the Romans were totally entitled to laugh their asses of the first time they saw a Celt with a pair of pants. Eventually though they realize the Celts were being serious, then they were entitled to have a few laughs more, and only then should you expect them to respect the cultural differences, and only accidentally laugh at them occasionally and apologize when it happened.
I understand your conclusion that according to my reasoning: 'any conscious choice about their appearance is effeminate'. I should have elaborated. Of course man also want to feel comfortable about their appearance, and spend time in order to look: handsome, dashing, cool, sharp and well kept. That is the most normal thing in the world, as society does value your appearance, and it is considered polite to look at least well kept. However for me a man should also have a certain casualness about the whole deal, he can't get to worked up about it. When a guy gets to worked up about it, I find that somewhat ridiculous and probably laugh at it.
Now granted finding something ridiculous and laugh at something can be impolite and proof of cultural shortsightedness, but we're all just humans, and such imperfections should not be judged that hardly. Some harmless mockery, though unrespectful, is inevitable when very different people meet.
