Poll: ME3 - Aren't You Guys Rather Embarressed?
- Thread starter Terramax
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Yes, I'm embarrassed by the ME3 fan rage. I've discussed why amply enough in other threads. Quite frankly, I think this whole situation could be summed up with a Greedy Larfleeze Meme Generator image. Something along the lines of:
"HATE MASS EFFECT 3'S ENDING, COURT MARSHALL DEVELOPERS FOR INSUBORDINATION."
I thought the gaming community was mature and willing to discuss difficult issues, and then this shitstorm rolls around. I'm also pretty tired of people assuming that because this is an EA game developed by BioWare, the very idea that the devs could have wanted to explore difficult choices becomes impossible to accept. As if all AAA devs had to stick to standard Hollywood tropes.
The endings do indeed suck, but it's BioWare's decision and prerogative to shape them however they want. I don't like it? Tough luck. Contrary to what many people believe, I have zero authorial control as a fan.
"HATE MASS EFFECT 3'S ENDING, COURT MARSHALL DEVELOPERS FOR INSUBORDINATION."
I thought the gaming community was mature and willing to discuss difficult issues, and then this shitstorm rolls around. I'm also pretty tired of people assuming that because this is an EA game developed by BioWare, the very idea that the devs could have wanted to explore difficult choices becomes impossible to accept. As if all AAA devs had to stick to standard Hollywood tropes.
The endings do indeed suck, but it's BioWare's decision and prerogative to shape them however they want. I don't like it? Tough luck. Contrary to what many people believe, I have zero authorial control as a fan.
That's curious. Bioware's most recent statements indicate they'll be addressing the endings in response to fan concerns.IamLEAM1983 said:
Reality does not seem to support your statement. Would you care to revise it?
And this is a fucking straw man, and you know it, and it's getting perfectly exhausting refuting it over and over and over and over and over. If you want mature discussions, maybe don't carry on with this rubbish.IamLEAM1983 said:
Seriously, do you know how ridiculous it is to hear rant after rant by people accusing "gamers" of maturity issues whilst flinging around ad hominem attacks and straw men like it was 75% off day at the logical fallacy store? I know you're capable of discussing this issue like a rational human being, so why you keep defaulting to this idiotic and hyperbolic name calling is seriously beyond me.
No, I'm not embarrassed. I may not be the most vocal, but I wholeheartedly support the idea here. I feel that while yes, the ending does take a stab at some very thought provoking ideas in the general strain of The Matrix and Dues Ex what have you, I object to the way they execute it here. I liken it to the ideas been gently woven throughout the entire series. It's there, but it's never right in your face. That is until the end of the third game where it comes out and smashes you in the face with a bat. The fallout from this is that we did not get what the head-honchos more or less promised the community (vastly different endings for vastly different game choices). Instead, we get one ending (pretty much) with slight differences in flavor because of this "booyah! Philosophy in your face!" idea. I just wanted an end that makes sense and keeps me in the illusion that "hey, this is how your shep's story ended". While it will by no means be as diverse as something from a pen or paper perspective, a Fallout type ending or something similar would have preserved my illusion much better, which was the whole point of the structure of Mass Effect. So yeah, holding the developers to what they promised is a worthy cause. Especially since they already have my $70. If we don't hold creators to their word and some standards, where will it end? No where good I suspect.
Sorry for the wall of text.
TL;DR: Nothing that hasn't been said before.
Sorry for the wall of text.
TL;DR: Nothing that hasn't been said before.
Editing the endings in response to fan concerns isn't authorial control. We haven't actively shaped the third opus' development, all we've done is stomp out feet until the company caved in. We aren't screenwriters, animators, level designers or playtesters. We're BioWare's audience. Plain and simple.BloatedGuppy said:
Also, ad hominem attacks? Seriously? Have I gone out of my way and expressly called anyone a moron? Have I insulted anyone? Nope. I'm well aware that there's people in the protest groups who can put a reasonable argument together. The problem is that even though the endings aren't ideal, even though there's plot holes and even though the full scope of our choices isn't adequately represented in the third game, the core argument I keep hearing over and over is that BioWare LIED to us. THIS is where the protesters are leaving all sensible discourse behind and reaching ridiculous levels of entitlement.
Yes, the Dreaded E-Word. I'll keep using it, too, because it definitely applies, no matter how much you might want to rationalize your argument and no matter how much you, as an individual, might be able to approach this whole debacle sensibly. If you are, congrats to you. Unfortunately, those I've seen invoking laws and accusing EA or BioWare of false advertising aren't.
They obviously had to cut corners. They obviously have a lot of interesting stuff lying around on the cutting room's floor. Time constraints, budgetary constraints and maybe even executive meddling caused some of these plot points and other elements to be dropped. This does not equate to lies in any shape or form.
BioWare isn't to blame if you didn't appreciate the ending's tone. Some of the decisions they took are questionable, yes, but it's THEIR decisions. As simple fans of the franchise, that's what we should be understanding. I'm all for letting them know that it wasn't exactly ideal, but the problem is we're not just asking for polite consultation or discussion. We aren't setting up a table and asking BioWare to sit down - the more vocal protestors are treating BioWare as though the decision-makers in the company were Saturday-morning cartoon villains who'd screwed up the last ten minutes of the third game simply out of spite.
I'm also aware that we don't live in a perfect world and that corporations and companies can indeed make false claims, but this isn't the case, here. BioWare isn't Enron. BioWare has simply fallen prey to its own PR talk, the same way Peter Molyneux keeps delivering impassioned speeches about his supposedly game-changing innovations, when the final products are usually middling at best.
Has anyone ever sued Molyneux for his PR talk? Obviously not. Why should we do it for BioWare? Why should we DEMAND anything? There's one heck of a difference between constructive exchanges and destructive criticism. That's what people aren't seeing, and this is where the entitlement issues associated with this problem are located.
We have justifications, for me it isn't necessarily about it being a VERY grimdark ending (not bittersweet at all like they said) but it is primarily because there is a shit ton of plot holes and the whole ending doesnt make sense and needs to be fixed. The second reason is that there isn't enough choice in the endings and our choices in the end do not matter and there isn't explanation of the results of our choices.
Also, closure.
Also, closure.
The ending critisism has gone way too far. It's all good and fine that you don't like something. However, going to the FTC? Building a protest movement against the developers?
I think this has been taken a bridge too far. At this point I'm not sure if I should be impressed that gamers are willing to go this far to protect customers, or to be more active in opposing the activists.
I think this has been taken a bridge too far. At this point I'm not sure if I should be impressed that gamers are willing to go this far to protect customers, or to be more active in opposing the activists.
Meh, even as the indoctrination theory is becoming the general agreement on the ending issue it still isn't that much better. I'd rather see "The Developers once known as Bioware" completely frak up a trilogy's ending than have them say to your face 'you got an "complete" product for ?60, would you like a ?10 product to make sense of it or another one to "extend" it?'
The only indoctrination i believe in is one of Bioware by EA.
The only indoctrination i believe in is one of Bioware by EA.
I chose "Other" so I feel I should explain myself and it's been really hard for me to comment on the endings of Mass Effect 3 as an aspiring writer myself and I know I personally would be a little "down" if a large group of vocal people had extreme dislike for my work but also (at least myself personally) wouldn't put myself in this sort of position to begin with. I would at least have knowledge of what I had written before and would at least take the time to look at all 3 works before I published the final to make sure it made sense. I personally think the ending of ME3 is bad, plot holes, unexplained characters and stuff, no real closure, choices being negated pretty much, its not up to the standards that Bioware has set out in previous games. I feel that there is this massive disconnect between the ending and the rest of the game like they were written by two different people. Its like the guy who wrote Mass Effect: Deception wrote the ending, that guy obviously didn't have a lot of knowledge on the series or chose not to use the given knowledge he had to write the story and hence the reason the book is getting "patched"
Now I think that suing Bioware or reporting Bioware or using a giant inflatable Harbinger that spews his quotes to run over EA headquarters is a little much (however that last one made me giggle a bit in a way I should probably tell a therapist props to who thought that up) Giving well thought out constructive feedback on the forums that the company claims they read by a company who claims they take player feedback seriously? Completely ok, and the correct way to do things. I myself would have been satisfied with what everyone has been calling the "happy" ending (Shepard lives, Reapers die all is well with the galaxy) because I personally didn't see this series ending any other way. We literally have been building up to that moment across 3 games pretty much. When it was announced that there would be no "Reapers win" ending I knew something was going to be different because the opposite of the "happy" ending is the "bad or sad" ending. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and they have let me down, do I expect them to fix it? No not really they don't HAVE too, I would just think as this company that talks themselves up as the "Company of the Player because we listen to player feedback" would want too.
Now I think that suing Bioware or reporting Bioware or using a giant inflatable Harbinger that spews his quotes to run over EA headquarters is a little much (however that last one made me giggle a bit in a way I should probably tell a therapist props to who thought that up) Giving well thought out constructive feedback on the forums that the company claims they read by a company who claims they take player feedback seriously? Completely ok, and the correct way to do things. I myself would have been satisfied with what everyone has been calling the "happy" ending (Shepard lives, Reapers die all is well with the galaxy) because I personally didn't see this series ending any other way. We literally have been building up to that moment across 3 games pretty much. When it was announced that there would be no "Reapers win" ending I knew something was going to be different because the opposite of the "happy" ending is the "bad or sad" ending. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and they have let me down, do I expect them to fix it? No not really they don't HAVE too, I would just think as this company that talks themselves up as the "Company of the Player because we listen to player feedback" would want too.
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I should say that almost all of the non-gamers I've heard talk about this, ones who have only encountered gamers complaining about it online or in person, uniformly think the reaction is silly and immature. Take that how you will I guess.
Take this how you will, but growing up, almost every single non-gamer I ran across thought the hobby was silly and immature. People tend to have arrogant, presumptuous attitudes about things they don't enjoy or don't understand. News at eleven.peruvianskys said:
Using consistently undermining language to portray people with an opposing viewpoint as foolish is a form of attack, yes. For an intellectual exercise, ask your girlfriend about something she cares about, and then start ridiculing it. Accuse her of 'raging', exaggerate her perspective into cartoonish absurdity and then tear it down, and fling around trite, snotty labels. See how the tone of the discussion progresses from there. The fans clamoring for a new ending have actually been the more civil of the two sides on this debate, and they've occasionally acted like abusive lunatics.IamLEAM1983 said:
Yes, they obviously did cut corners. Through ineptitude, laziness or graft they utterly bungled the most essential element of their narrative...a narrative they package, promote, and sell to us as a product. While I do believe authorial intent should be respected, I certainly do not think that it is infallible. Charles Dickens was not infallible. Ridley Scott was not infallible. History is littered with examples of great creative minds listening to and adapting to feedback. The creative process is not so fragile that any form of input that questions authorial control causes the entire exercise to collapse into mass market schlock.
I'm not unhappy at the blow back Bioware has been getting over this fiasco. They clearly did NOT learn any lessons with Dragon Age 2 in terms of lazy corner cutting translating directly into toxic word of mouth. DEMANDING consistent quality from a developer, DEMANDING fulfillment of advertising promises...these are positive behaviors and Bioware should be embracing them wholeheartedly. A demanding fan, however annoying to deal with, is a still a fan. The alternative, so often suggested here, is that we shouldn't trouble Bioware with our nonsense, and should simply vote with our wallets and cease to buy their games altogether. Why this would be a preferable outcome for them, I'll never understand.
They can't, many of the have conceded the fact the ending suck, but because people feel more strongly about the ending and want to change it, they feel like it is their duty to put others down.Chairman Miaow said:
Plus, they are one of the main reasons these ME3 threads are still around.
This is what I allude to in my OP. Many people still look down upon the industry as a sort of lesser animal to other mediums. We recently had a politician demand video games be labelled "WARNING: Exposure to violent video games has been linked to aggressive behavior." and the reaction by gamers to controversies such as ME3 will only add fuel to that fire.BloatedGuppy said:
Whilst some might say 'haters are gonna hate', I'm sure we can all agree that over the years the perception of video games has slowly, but surely, become more accepted with each generation. I like to think that both the industry, and many gamers, have matured, increased in numbers, and are fully aware of the positive impact games have on our lives, and the potential for artistic expression.
Over these same years we've seen a huge change in attitudes. Parents taking up the Wii/ kinect/ move. Non-gamers enticed into playing games due to their movie like cinematics or realistic graphic quality. The Telegraph and Guardian having articles dedicated to the artistic and financial value of games. None of this thought possible 20 years ago. And I am positive in the decades to come games will easily become equal, if not surpass the importance of other mediums.
However, this seems not to be one of those milestones but, in my opinion, counter-productive in forwarding our hobbies' social acceptance.
I've got the feeling many here have mis-interpreted my OP. I'm not arguing whether people should be angry about a mis-selling of a game. I'm questioning the methods employed to express disappointment. It's great to see people showing such passion for a game like Mass Effect. Seriously, the effort put into the 10 Reasons... video clearly shows skill and respect for a franchise. But it's becoming no less perverse than the unhealthy, obsessive characteristics shown from other fanatical groups (to which I used 'Twilight' as a key example).
Whilst this really comes down to personal opinion, I'm under the impression that a company that mis-sells a product does not give buyers permission to act unprofessionally. Whilst some of the tactics used to show their anger and disappointment of the ME3 ending are justified, and productive, some of them seem not to be, and it's more than likely these unprofessional methods are the ones that will be heard and remembered most by those both within, and outside of our community. After all, the screaming child makes more noise than a reasonable parent.
So fighting for the right to indirectly force a private company to change their creative work because it doesn't fit your personal standards is now something worth fighting for? Methinks that ~451 people need to be brought down to Earth and finally be taught that they don't get to demand change in creative works they're completely uninvolved in, and that they're not important enough to even think about asking to do so.
On a similar note, can I now whine like a ***** about how I didn't like Blade Runner and they should completely remake the film so it can be more like Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?? 'Cause that's pretty much the same situation, the only difference being that the ME3 whiners have numbers. I think it's pretty safe to say, though, that even if I had a few thousand people (or even a few hundred thousand) demanding a remake, the film wouldn't be remade, and the public at large (including neutral and defending parties) would lose all respect for us and laugh at us. As we'd rightly deserve.
On a similar note, can I now whine like a ***** about how I didn't like Blade Runner and they should completely remake the film so it can be more like Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?? 'Cause that's pretty much the same situation, the only difference being that the ME3 whiners have numbers. I think it's pretty safe to say, though, that even if I had a few thousand people (or even a few hundred thousand) demanding a remake, the film wouldn't be remade, and the public at large (including neutral and defending parties) would lose all respect for us and laugh at us. As we'd rightly deserve.
Oh, okay. Well, if the majority of the shareholders demand a better ending, then BioWare should go ahead and do it. That's the responsible thing to do.wintercoat said:
I don't think that's the case, though. And since that's not the case, BioWare can go ahead and do whatever they damn well please. Which, last time I checked, was give a bunch of whiny people an undeserved ego boost by bending to their inane demands.
1. Buyers are not "professional consumers" so it's impossible for them to behave "unprofessionally".Terramax said:
2. You're quite correct about squeaky wheel syndrome in terms of the most obnoxious commentary getting the most attention, but this is part and parcel of living in an information age and have a population that is deeply enamored of spectacle and controversy. Spend a few minutes observing the worst behavior of any demographic, and you're going to come away with a pretty dim view of things, if you're the sort of person who leaps to conclusions based on biased data.
Gamers NEED to get over this fucking persecution complex. Yes, it's a young medium, and yes, it's experienced the same growing pains that young mediums always do, but that doesn't mean we need to toe the line or wheedle for affection. The strength of the art form will determine the size of the audience, not the behavior of the fans. When I rent a film or take a book out of the library to read, I'm not immersing myself in the fan culture, I'm consuming the media. If you're worried about gaming growing as a hobby and becoming legitimized as an art form, worry about companies turning out slipshod, half-baked rubbish and then hand waving criticism from their customer base as the whining of entitled children.
The shareholders will want to do whatever most positively influences the bottom line.JCBFGD said:
The way I see it, Mass Effect has a huge amount of fans, it's one of the bigger franchises out there right now, and about 90 percent of the people who frequent Bioware's forum are unhappy with the ending. Now sure, to people who aren't fans of the series it would seem we're just whining because we didn't get the ending we wanted, in other words the ending was sad and the fanboys just couldn't deal with it, but that's not the case, some of the best stories end on a bittersweet note, I was actually looking forward to that, but the ending wasn't bittersweet, it seemed like it was from a different game, so instead of a final end to the trilogy, some closure that allows us to look back on Mass Effect fondly we got nothing, like we had played through the trilogy and just stopped without finding out how Shepard won.
Honestly yes, people are taking it too far, but people always take it too far, they took it too far when Doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes, they took it too far when the Star Wars prequels came out, when the last Indiana Jones movie came out, and those are just the ones I care enough to know about. People who are not on the escapist, or some other site, the ones who aren't a part of the culture have no idea whats going right now, they don't care, all the crappy legislature against video games are a result of ignorance, people who look at the showy, violent well publicized games like Call of Duty and ignore games like Journey, or Shadow of the Colossus, or see 10 seconds of hot blue alien ass in the original Mass Effect and condemn it all on sight.
Frankly, I don't see this as such a bad precedent, no other medium has really had this happen before (besides Sherlock Holmes) but video games aren't like any other medium, it probably won't happen again but I can assure you Bioware would come out on top if they did change the ending, just loads of good publicity and happy fans.
Honestly yes, people are taking it too far, but people always take it too far, they took it too far when Doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes, they took it too far when the Star Wars prequels came out, when the last Indiana Jones movie came out, and those are just the ones I care enough to know about. People who are not on the escapist, or some other site, the ones who aren't a part of the culture have no idea whats going right now, they don't care, all the crappy legislature against video games are a result of ignorance, people who look at the showy, violent well publicized games like Call of Duty and ignore games like Journey, or Shadow of the Colossus, or see 10 seconds of hot blue alien ass in the original Mass Effect and condemn it all on sight.
Frankly, I don't see this as such a bad precedent, no other medium has really had this happen before (besides Sherlock Holmes) but video games aren't like any other medium, it probably won't happen again but I can assure you Bioware would come out on top if they did change the ending, just loads of good publicity and happy fans.