teh_pwning_dude said:
I understand that, and I know I'm making vast and unreasonable generalisations, but regardless of all that, I've seen naturopathy work better than conventional medecine on a number of occasions. I can't stand seeing a bunch of people lay shit on them because they didn't get 99.3 on their UAI or whatever. It's terrible the amount of crap that's being laid on these people who exist to help others. I'm sure most of the people here have never even fucking met a naturopath, much less been treated by one.
The problem here are little things I like to call "statistics" and "empirical data". Acupuncture based on ancient rituals and special places only work as well as stabbing someone pretty randomly while telling them "Shh, it'll all be okay". No study I've seen (nor any you can cook up) say that homeopathy works aside from the pretty basic "wash your hands, brush your teeth, more exercise, eat less crap" which is already covered by (a) normal medicine and (b) common sense.
I can, however, show you documented proof of the utility of medical science. Every drug on the market has to be tested for efficacy and safety. You can't say the same for whatever "herbal supplements" homeopaths are shilling this week.
teh_pwning_dude said:
Hi there, I'm not dead and there was no dumb luck involved. So, uh, fuck you, stop ragging on people who saved my life and the lives of people I know.
If you're gonna keep throwing down with "homeopathy saved my life when doctors failed", we really do need more information than you're telling us. What disease did you or your friends have? What tests did the doctors actually perform? Did the homeopath successfully diagnose the underlying illness, or simply give platitudes and whatever 'treatment' he prescribed?
Can you prove the treatment worked, or would the placebo effect come into play here (you think "I'm going to get better" so you get better)? There are like fifteen other confounding variables here. We know none of the actual facts upon which to make a judgment on this matter, so your claims of being saved, and it not being either coincidence or dumb luck fall on largely deaf ears.
tl;dr? [Needs Citations]
teh_pwning_dude said:
I'm sorry, but what the fuck? Everyone here is working off some bullshit assumption that every naturopath is some evil prick who sells you tablets made of his own shit then you die because you didn't see a real doctor.
Listen mate, the extent of information presented was that this person was not "medically qualified", which I assume means did not go to a conventional medical school. Oh right, they have NO training. I guess they just print those little certificates off their walls on their own for no fucking reason then. It's funny, I was looking at the universaities around the place, there are courses in naturopathy. They must just sit there and do nothing, huh?
There are plenty of standards and regulations in naturopathy. If you think there's not, you've obviously never looked at it.
If you think the standards in homeopathy are anything compared to the standards of real medicine, you're either naive, ill-informed, or silly. The drugs they prescribe undergo almost no testing, none of their procedures are tracked or standardized, and none of their treatments are actually required to do anything. Even becoming a homeopath (at least here in America) requires little more than putting up a sign and saying "yep, I know the ancient and secret art of giving you herbs"
teh_pwning_dude said:
FUNNY THAT, BECAUSE WHAT I HAD SURE WAS. Jesus, do you listen at all?
I do listen, I'm just waiting for you to actually say something. Merely saying "I had a disease that the doctors missed, but the homeopath cured" without any facts about the underlying information has no more credence than me saying I had a disease which I originally went to the homeopaths for, they didn't do anything useful, but the real doctors cured me.
You have no more reason to believe in (a) the veracity of my claims, nor (b) the geralizability of my claims if true, than I have to believe yours. Given a wholesale lack of actual information vis-a-vis your claims of doctoral incompetence, I choose not to give it credence, and so argue from the information I do have:
Study upon study shows no significant difference between treatment under a homeopath and placebo. Study upon study shows the effectiveness of drugs and treatments prescribed by real doctors.
teh_pwning_dude said:
Well fuck me dead if there's a good doctor anywhere in Canberra or Sydney. Nice work just walking in and throwing presumptions around, but I had every fucking medical test under the sun done on me, and nothing showed shit. So unless the MRI just happened to be broken the day I went in, you're full of shit. I'm afraid you can't go and call the EEG "lazy" now can you?
Every test? Except the one the homeopath used to diagnose you? I doubt it. I'll bet what you count as the homeopath correctly treating you has less to do with him accurately catching a diagnosis, as it does with him simply treating you with whatever stuff came to mind.
That's the thing. Doctors have to confirm diagnoses before treatment. They don't get the benefit of an "oops, my bad". Did you get treatment from a homeopath? Apparently. Did you also get better? By your claims, yes.
Is there any proved relationship between those facts? Not that you've shown conclusively.
teh_pwning_dude said:
Gee, yeah, that must be true for every one of them! Yeah, right, they're untrained, again, certificates are obviously just home print outs. Gee, here's a crazy fucking thought; they decided to go into naturopathy to help people HOLY SHIT DID YOU THINK OF THAT ONE.
Uh... Don't change the subject, mate. If you want to argue they're honorable people, argue they're honorable people. You said that they could be both trained (in the medical sense) and believe in medicine. By my accounting above, they cannot be both (either they didn't cut it as a real doctor, or they could cut it as a real doctor but gave up believing homeopathy works better, or they didn't even try to be doctors since they believe homeopathy is better). The only fourth option is that they're medically trained, and believe in medicine. But why would someone medically trained (who isn't abjectly incompetent) and who believe is the superiority of medicine to witch-doctoring ever practice homeopathy? Riddle me that, Batman.
teh_pwning_dude said:
Honestly, there is no point arguing with you. You've just decided naturopathy won't work and they're all scammers. Despite people they've helped, too. Christ, you're a fucking joke.
You imply that I'm declaring it based on no other information. I'm not. I've seen the studies showing that homeopathy doesn't work, and the ones showing medicine does.
Show me the studies where homeopathy showed better results than real medicine, and we'll talk. Until they, please save the invective for someone who cares about your opinion, or simply do away with it altogether. I care not a whit about your disdain for me, as I know the facts bear out my side of the story.
Truly correct people don't resort to churlish, immature, insults.
