Poll: Nateropathic Doctors?

[thenumberthirteen]

Eating well can improve your chances of not getting certain ailments or diseases, but there are very few medical problems that can be solved by eating fruit and veg.

I hardly expect a missing limb to grow back because I eat my carrots, you know.
But I think it'll make my body that much stronger, increasing my chances of not dying to something small and avoidable.

Of course not. I did make the assumption that by "Everything" you didn't mean gunshots, missing limbs, or war in the Middle East.

The trouble comes from people who think that things like Leukaemia, Rabies, or Diabetes can be cured using herbs, Vitamins, or Homoeopathic remedies. If people ate well there would be fewer cases of heart disease.

 

[Sam Warrior]

Alternative therapies are all well and good but some herbs wont save your life if you need a heart bypass. Most modern medicines are refined versions of the plants etc that used to be used in natural remedies. Alternative therapies work well in conjunction with regular medicine but should not be used to replace it.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Of course not. I did make the assumption that by "Everything" you didn't mean gunshots, missing limbs, or war in the Middle East.

The trouble comes from people who think that things like Leukaemia, Rabies, or Diabetes can be cured using herbs, Vitamins, or Homoeopathic remedies. If people ate well there would be fewer cases of heart disease.

Well, the cure to any number of horrible things is probably just laying around in some plant, so I guess, at least people eating herbs will find out which one cures something definitively... eventually.

 

[thenumberthirteen]

Of course not. I did make the assumption that by "Everything" you didn't mean gunshots, missing limbs, or war in the Middle East.

The trouble comes from people who think that things like Leukaemia, Rabies, or Diabetes can be cured using herbs, Vitamins, or Homoeopathic remedies. If people ate well there would be fewer cases of heart disease.

Well, the cure to any number of horrible things is probably just laying around in some plant, so I guess, at least people eating herbs will find out which one cures something definitively... eventually.

Which is why I prefer my medicines to be tested on other people first. Eating random plants is rarely a good move.

 

[sunburst]

But yes a question about positions would be very inappropriate...

What if you were complaining about chronic shoulder pain and your favorite position was the wheelbarrow?

I support holistic healing in your daily life. A lot of issues can be avoided with a generally healthy body and mind. Modern medicine has become more accepting and supportive of treating patients psychologically and doctors obviously believe a balanced diet, proper hydration and regular physical activity make you healthier. The problem with naturopathy and the people who believe in it is how they support "natural" solutions to all your issues at the expense of modern medical treatment. It's dangerous, irresponsible and royally pisses me off.

 

[Pimppeter2]

Mostly due to better hygiene and varied diets.

Both of which are covered by Naturopathy.

Without ANY medicine, I would've suffocated because of my asthma when I was 5. Your point is invalid.

Also every single diabetic person would have an average life expectancy of... uhm, 7 years? On average, some die earlier, some later.

Oh, and notice how in some countries, the average life expectancy is about 27 years. Those poor countries in Africa, where they don't even have medicine for things as trivial as TB, which most of us get vaccinated for before we are 10.

Not saying nature can't heal stuff and so on, because basically 90% of the drugs before the invention of pills and injections were herbs... but you can't something that could have bug eggs in it.

So, reading comprehension huh?

Also notice how people in under developed countries are starving (or have a very malnourished diet), and generally have VERY bad hygiene?

I never said that medicine has no role, just that simple things like eating well and hygiene have had a greater effect on life expectancy than drugs.

So yes, before you call my argument invalid, you may want to revisit the fifth grade.

Fifth grade? In fifth grade, we had nothing like that. Then again, I'm not American.

All the hygiene in the world won't save you if you catch a disease that needs drugs. Not to mention, too much hygiene (like, shower or a bath twice a day) not only destroys your body's natural defenses against outside influences, it also contributes to the development of auto-aggressive diseases.

Trust me, if my grandparents were born 5-10 years later, they would still be alive thanks to breakthroughs in medicine. 15 years ago, lung cancer was fatal, nowadays you have a chance.

Still, it's sad you WON'T be suspended for insulting me, considering I was reported and suspended for a similar "insult".

Its not sad, I question your reading comprehension for a good reason.

What exactly are you trying to argue, that medicine = good?

In that case, I'd tell you no sh*t, but I'm afraid you might tell on me for using the S-word.

Again, did you even read my post and the person who I quoted? I said that diet and hygiene have the biggest effect on the increase of out life expectancy, but I never said that medicine has no role in it.

So you'll have to excuse me for "insulting" you when you were first to come off snarky and demeaning. And especially since you were plainly wrong.


According to the World Health Organization, hunger is the gravest single threat to the world's public health [footnote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation#Hunger_statistics[/footnote]. So yeah, I would figure that a well balanced diet is a bigger deal than medicine.

Our life expectancy, compared to a 17/18th Century French Peasant is much better becuase we don't rely on 80% of our diet being grain, nor do we shit in the corner of the rooms we eat in like the nobles who lived at Versailles.

On the average, 1 person dies every second as a result, either directly or indirectly, of hunger - 4000 every hour - 100 000 each day - 36 million each year - [HEADING=3]58 % of all deaths[/HEADING]

On the average, 1 child dies every 5 seconds as a result, either directly or indirectly, of hunger - 700 every hour - 16 000 each day - 6 million each year - 60% of all child deaths

So you tell me, what seems more important, medicine or nutrition now? Its not that under developed countries wouldn't benefit from more medicine, nor is medicine unimportant. Just that diet and hygiene have been, and will always be more significant.

Thus, the simply fact that we're eating better. During the 20th century, an estimated 70 million people died from famines across the world.

Again, just in case you're not getting this. Better diets and hygiene have had a greater effect on the increase in life expectancy of the world. This does NOT mean that medical developments have had no role. It simply means that we live longer than those in the Middle Ages because we eat better food and take care of ourselves better

For example, if everyone in Africa practiced safe sex, then Aids wouldn't be as big of a problem. If everyone in Africa lived in houses like ours, and ate correctly, they wouldn't be as susceptible to disease. Simple.

 

[Dags90]

Vitamin D is contained in sunlight. He already had too much in his body. Hence, being exposed to sunlight caused an adverse reaction, espeically in his eyes and skin. You are honestly the most idiotic person in this entire thread, even more than the person who just decided on an opinion and ignored everything. I walked through the house of a 13 year old boy, every window was taped up with black cellophane and the poor bastard just sat lethargically on his couch twitching every twenty seconds. He was robbed of his childhood because of arrogant, self-rightious doctors who cared more about trying to be right than helping.

If you have any more to say about this person's plight, I suggest you hack an arm off. You sound like the sort of person who has never had anything bad happen to them, and could use a little experience.

To be fair, Vitamin D poisoning is much different than an allergy to sunlight. There is no vitamin D in sunlight, sunlight catalyzes your body's natural ability to synthesize vitamin D. This process reaches a creation/degradation equilibrium past certain thresholds of vitamin D levels. There are actually several diseases which are more aptly called "light allergies" despite some of them not being autoimmune related, and a few of them are genetic.

I also don't see why nutrition and hygiene are considered separate from modern medicine. We wouldn't have established many of our sanitary practices without the influence of germ theory and the basis of nutrition is in modern science.

 

[WolfThomas]

I also don't see why nutrition and hygiene are considered separate from modern medicine. We wouldn't have established many of our sanitary practices without the influence of germ theory and the basis of nutrition is in modern science.

I wholeheartedly agree, I wash my hands around 50 or more times a day on occasion, not because I have OCD, but because I deal with multiple patients in a day. Plus clinical dietitians are usually smart cookies.

 

[Queen Michael]

I have mixed feelings. Naturopaths certainly shouldn't be trusted, since they make so many unproven claims, but according to Wikipedia they consider homeopathy to be quackery, so they do have some good opinions. But they also recommend acupuncture, a very unscientific method. Remember, kids: When ancient China used acupuncture, the expected length of life wasn't nearly as long as when they started using modern medicine. I'm not a fan, and would never go to a naturopath myself.

 

[Break]

Well fuck me dead if there's a good doctor anywhere in Canberra or Sydney. Nice work just walking in and throwing presumptions around, but I had every fucking medical test under the sun done on me, and nothing showed shit. So unless the MRI just happened to be broken the day I went in, you're full of shit. I'm afraid you can't go and call the EEG "lazy" now can you?

Wait, so, you went to the medical doctors, they performed "every test under the sun" on you, refused to treat you because they couldn't determine what was wrong, and you're angry at them for it? What did you want them to say? "Well, I'm afraid all of the tests we performed turned up negative, we can't find anything wrong with you, and we don't know what's causing your problems, but we're going to go ahead and schedule you in for some random treatments anyway"? I believe the technical term for that is "malpractice". Which is dangerous for doctors because they can lose their right to practice medicine, and it's dangerous for patients because it's dangerous. If they can't find, specifically, what your problems are, then what do you expect them to do? Treat you anyway? What with?

Although, I think I can understand where you're coming from, when you talk about how unpleasant your doctors were. Certainly, if how you've acted in this thread is any indication, I would not need any convincing that your doctors were rude to you. I would not be at all surprised.

In any case, forgive me if I don't quite share your distrust of the medical community. Given that I have even chances of becoming diabetic at some point in my life (it runs in my family) I'm not quite ready to leave all my medical needs to the holistic approach just yet.

 

[Woodsey]

Doctors are fucking worthless. Naturopathy has done more for me than modern fucking medicine.

I fucking hate doctors.

Though I should ask, what's wrong with your sister?

Well, let's see: NO medical degree, NO formal training, AND doesn't believe in modern medical theories? How does any part of that sound good?

Let's see, NO knowledge of this person or their training and NO knowledge of their personal views on modern medical theories. How is your post in any way credible?

I don't think you should be arguing about credible posts after you've just described all doctors as "fucking worthless".

OT: What is Naturopathy anyway? It's not like a bloody Homeopathic doctor is it?

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I'd trust a real doctor. Just because you might have had a bad experience with real medicine doesn't mean that random crap is going to work. For example: You have cancer, your medicine didn't help. I know! Let's go and eat some fucking bark!

Modern medicine is a progression from that, taking the active ingredients from plants and such. Regressing back to eating leaves to cure your problems seems like a completely pointless concept.

 

[WolfThomas]

If we disregard the stuff that conventional medicine covers equally such as diet, hygiene and exercise, there are three things that contribute to the majority of the success of complementary/alternative medicine.

The first is placebo, we all have an idea about what placebo is, but we don't truly understand how powerful it can be, studies have shown that giving pregnant women ipecac (a substance that induces vomiting and causes nausea) and telling them it prevents nausea actually results in them feeling less nauseated. That's not just a tiny improvement, but a completely opposite result than what should occur pharmacologically. Furthermore other tests have shown that two sugar pills are better than one, coloured pills better and injections of saline (harmless salt water) even better. So someone feeling better after having a long consultation, massage or random needles being stuck into them is to be expected.

Secondly there is a concept called "Regression to the mean", basically we're never 100% healthy at any one time we fluctuate, if we're feeling run down we will eventually (and hopefully) feel better. Homeopathy for example especially prays on this, you get a cold, you take their harmless concoction, start feeling better because you're naturally starting to get better, but your mind associates the pills with getting better and hence people believe they work. It's much the same with antibiotics and viral infections, they're useless when prescribed for the common cold, but people still want them because they think they help. Some naturopaths insure themselves further and say that a person taking them will feel worse before they get better or that it takes a certain number of doses for improvements to start.

Finally, miracles do happen. It's rare but take 1000 people with terminal cancers and a handful will survive and the cancers will regress for no apparent reason. Sometimes a cure derived from peachs pits or something will be claimed to be responsible. In reality these are just statistical anomalies, some people just get super-duper lucky. But these fuels a market in already desperate people, creating more wonder-stories and false hope.

A really important thing to consider is that while conventional medicine can be downright lousy at times, it is regulated and studies are being performed all the time to test the safety and validity of current methods and interventions. And while someone may present a study that lauds complementary/alternate medicine, a dozen can be found that indicates it to be equal to a placebo. These studies that buck the trend are not "revolutionary" as their supporters often suggest, but just statistical outliers. If ten equally important studies tell you one thing, that another says is different. What is more likely? That ten are wrong for whatever reasons or that the one is.

TLR Umm...(pops smoke and egresses)

 

[DanteMD]

I'll just insert my two bits here, in the vague hopes that nobody will mind. It's not that I don't enjoy all the lovely bashing up in this *censored word*, and that I don't agree... say 50%-ish, but you're really making a big deal over vitamins and a healthy diet. Things my mother has suggested to me for... 10 or so years. It's apparently the latest trend in medicine - bashing everything, and claiming diet and exercise can improve life.

And that eight cups of water per day is just silly. Sure, you need water, but too much will kill you. Water itself isn't exactly poison, but too much of the stuff, and the kidneys won't be able to excrete it, the body will try to store it in places it doesn't belong (causing what's known as edema, and if that gets into your lungs you go bye-bye); it may also excrete electrolytes you need (sodium and such), along with the water.

I'm glad everyone's bashing based on personal experience, and absolutely no knowledge of the profession. Sure, there's a bunch of jerks around, both carrying MDs, AND voodoo wands made out of south Indian carrot trees (if such a thing even exists), but there are also medical professionals who didn't go through med school drinking, and partying in night clubs.

Do you really want to turn a discussion based around doctors about how pharmaceutical companies run everything? It sounds a bit like a conspiracy. And it tends to lose focus from the individual that is a doctor, a healer, or a scary shaman. The practice of medicine has no effect on the actual INDIVIDUAL - I know a few brilliant doctors that work in a system that would disgust any human being with inside knowledge.

And if it seems like I'm defending them, I'm only doing half that. 75% of my classmates are never going to make it as doctors, because they're here to enjoy the ride, spend time in bars, have fun, not actually STUDY. Their mommies and daddies paid 5000$ so they can embarrass our entire class in front of our teachers, who, like most people tend to do, generalize and call us idiots as well. It's sort of like... "Always the bad ones that ruin it for the rest of us."

 

[geldonyetich]

I know what you're thinking...
But given a little Wikipedia research, Naturopathic doctors are something different than Homeopathic ones.

I guess it depends on what she's seeing him for. A flu? Sure. A sprained wrist? Why not? Stress or other annoying little ailments that M.D.s tend to ignore or poorly treat? N.D.s live for that stuff. Any common ailment is probably fine. However, open heart surgery? Not recommended - in fact, given the anti-surgery preference of the naturopathic approach, quite unlikely!

What's more, apparently Nateropathic doctors are well-regulated in Canada [http://www.cand.ca/index.php?id=29&backPID=29&tt_news=53]...

Like a conventional doctor, dentist, or chiropractor, the naturopathic doctor first completes pre-medical studies at university. The naturopathic student then enters into a four-year, full-time medical program at an accredited school of naturopathic medicine. Training includes basic, medical, and clinical science; diagnostics; naturopathic principles and therapeutics; and extensive clinical experience under the supervision of licensed naturopathic doctors. Graduates receive the title "N.D." or Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine.

...so, recent Canadian regulation allowing them to write prescriptions or not, it's highly unlikely the person your sister is seeing is just quack who got a mail order degree, and you're defaming his choice of vocation unfairly with your claims to the contrary.

 

[DanteMD]

Vitamin D is contained in sunlight.

Vitamin D without a subscript refers to either D2 or D3 or both. Vitamin D3 is produced in the skin of vertebrates after exposure to ultraviolet B light from the sun or artificial sources, and occurs naturally in a small range of foods.

Are you *sure* it's contained in sunlight? Are vitamins included in electromagnetic waves from the big shiny sphere in the sky? Perhaps you should take a step back from your frustrations with doctors in general, and perhaps read a book or something.

If you're just going to troll and bash, at least read up on the subject matter.

 

[Arachon]

Personally, I prefer "real" doctors who rely on scientific methods, that can be proven empirically, than some bloke that claims that this "natural", completely untested and unproven, remedy will be much better, because all doctors are evil.

 

[DeeTee]

Vitamin D is contained in sunlight.

Vitamin D without a subscript refers to either D2 or D3 or both. Vitamin D3 is produced in the skin of vertebrates after exposure to ultraviolet B light from the sun or artificial sources, and occurs naturally in a small range of foods.

Are you *sure* it's contained in sunlight? Are vitamins included in electromagnetic waves from the big shiny sphere in the sky? Perhaps you should take a step back from your frustrations with doctors in general, and perhaps read a book or something.

If you're just going to troll and bash, at least read up on the subject matter.

Aww, you guys and yer fancy book learnin'!

As for the naturopathy, I'd be worried if that's all the medical treatment that the OP's sister is receiving. Homeopathy has received far more clinical testing than the advocates might have you believe, and has never been shown to have any more effect than a placebo. It's hokum. So I'm concerned to find that the Principal of the College of Naturopathic Medicine in the UK is a homeopath: http://www.naturopathy-uk.com/about/about-hermann-keppler/

I'm also concerned to find that the Canadian Association of Naturopathic Doctors advocates use of homeopathy: http://www.cand.ca/index.php?47&L=0

I think homeopathy is a useful bellweather. If anyone advocates it, that's someone I instantly have no desire to trust with my health.

 

[Kimdeal]

*beams* good on ya escapist
I really dont think that there is anything here for me to add, other than that I agree with the Proscience, proreality posters. Oh, and a pretty basic rule of scepticism is that anecdotal evidence is essentially invalid. Simply because there is no way to know what really happened to the person in question.

On another note, great job guys. Both for keeping clear heads (for the most part) and for continuously bringing it back to what is relevent. You raise the level of the debate so much, that anyone who hasnt yet formed an opinion reading this thread should be able to see a clear difference in who is arguing from a position of logic and evidence, and who is arguing from anger (i doubt there are many of these, but hey, you never know).

Just remembered a joke, pretty sure Tim Minchin said it.
What do you call Alternative medicine that has been proven by evidence?


MEDICINE!!!!

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Doctors are fucking worthless. Naturopathy has done more for me than modern fucking medicine.

I fucking hate doctors.

Though I should ask, what's wrong with your sister?

Well, let's see: NO medical degree, NO formal training, AND doesn't believe in modern medical theories? How does any part of that sound good?

Let's see, NO knowledge of this person or their training and NO knowledge of their personal views on modern medical theories. How is your post in any way credible?

Please dont tell me you support Sarah Myhill or Ben goldacre do you?

Well i have no choice but to believe all doctors are puppy stamping greedy bastards who enjoy the suffering of others and have never helped another human soul in the history of creation ever. All medicines are lies, we should eat plants and burn down the penicilin factories.

Let me quote you some bullshit from these so called "doctors" who in your mind are so much better than trained proffesionals. just to clarify i think your sweeping statement is completely unreasonable. ALL doctors are bad? The doctor that recently saved my dads life from cancer was bad? He was a stupid fuck was he? He was fucking worthless? Just because he learnt it in a real school actually worth anything? I think all doctors, like people, can only be jugded on a person to person basis. Some are good. Some are bad. I've seen some MASSIVE life endangering bullshit from these people you revere over doctors. Heres an example from sarah myhill:

"asthma is the bodies way of preventing hyper ventilation, inhalers are the cause of asthma
dont use them" remember no breathing is better than too much breathing.

"Biopsyes are dangerous, dont get tested for cancer, its worse than dying of cancer! Take my pills and send your shit to belgium"

Literally, you post your crap to belgium where she tests you for cancer. This is aparently safer than any biopsy. A higher % of doctors are good compared to self proclaimed doctors, a lot of the latter are con artists looking for money, the former (living in britain) cares a lot more about your welfare than their own pockets. However some of these people you prefer are good they honestly try to help you, on the other hand a lot are con artists. Ben goldacre was adamant any injection to immunise people was dangerous, shunning them all while at the same time bringing out and getting a patent for his own immunisation plan, yay for con artists.

Conventional medicine didnt work for you. That's a shame, medicine works on a person to person basis, you are perhaps the select few who benifit from these alternative treatments. Its no excuse for putting down people who work to save others lives, they help a lot of people.

They tested a lot of the "natural medicines" a long time ago. The ones that worked are now called "medicine".