Poll: rape worse than murder?

[Lightknight]

At least a rape victim gets to decide if they want to move forward from it.

I doubt they get to decide that anymore than someone who's had a traumatic childhood gets to. Some things mark you for life and will negatively influence your day-to-day life and interactions with others for the rest of your life.

It's easy to say someone can just move on with their life, because hey, they're still alive. But would you say the same to someone who'd lost both their arms and legs?

What I mean is, they get to have the option of moving forward or not moving forward. This isn't an option for a murder victim.

People make it past rape all the time. Most of the time even. People with a traumatic childhood do too. Do you know what people never make it past their event or even have the option to not move past? People who are murdered. That's who.

Don't try to pretend that people experiencing trauma don't have more freedom over themselves than people who are dead. That's ridiculous. The person who kills makes the last decision that will ever be made for the person in their life. A person who rapes steals time from the person, potentially injures them, and traumatizes them but there is a day after and a very real road to recovery if they're willing to traverse it.

Am I honestly the only person insulted here? That people are saying rape victims are better off dead? I mean, holy crap. What a devaluation of people who have been raped. I mean, are we really so gung ho about elevating the status of the crime above murder that we're willing to write off its victims?

Yes, crimes are relative. But a person who was raped usually recovers. Committing a crime from which a person never and cannot recover is the ultimate crime. Compared to that, anything else may only be penultimate at best.

 

[happyninja42]

At least a rape victim gets to decide if they want to move forward from it.

I doubt they get to decide that anymore than someone who's had a traumatic childhood gets to. Some things mark you for life and will negatively influence your day-to-day life and interactions with others for the rest of your life.

It's easy to say someone can just move on with their life, because hey, they're still alive. But would you say the same to someone who'd lost both their arms and legs?

What I mean is, they get to have the option of moving forward or not moving forward. This isn't an option for a murder victim.

People make it past rape all the time. Most of the time even. People with a traumatic childhood do too. Do you know what people never make it past their event or even have the option to not move past? People who are murdered. That's who.

Don't try to pretend that people experiencing trauma don't have more freedom over themselves than people who are dead. That's ridiculous. The person who kills makes the last decision that will ever be made for the person in their life. A person who rapes steals time from the person, potentially injures them, and traumatizes them but there is a day after and a very real road to recovery if they're willing to traverse it.

Am I honestly the only person insulted here? That people are saying rape victims are better off dead? I mean, holy crap. What a devaluation of people who have been raped. I mean, are we really so gung ho about elevating the status of the crime above murder that we're willing to write off its victims?

Yes, crimes are relative. But a person who was raped usually recovers. Committing a crime from which a person never and cannot recover is the ultimate crime. Compared to that, anything else may only be penultimate at best.

The few examples in this thread, (and I admit I haven't read every one of them), that mentions that death is better than rape, seem to indicate this viewpoint is that of the victim. That in some cases the victim's ability to recover from the trauma, makes them feel that life isn't worth it, having to live through that event. And so for them, death is preferable to life. I personally don't agree with this mindset, but I'm also not a rape survivor, so I can't say how I would honestly react to it. I'd like to think I would be able to recover and find enjoyment in life, but I can't speak to that theoretical eventuality. I can understand that for some people, it might be impossible to move on, everyone is different, but I don't think that's the same as saying that rape victims, in general, are better off dead. I think it's more of a case by case basis, with the majority of people being able to recover from it, with your typical margin for variance of those who can't.

Though it might be interesting to see if it's actually the rape that is causing the desire to not be alive anymore, or the fact that it has created a depressed/suicidal drive in the victim as a byproduct? *shrugs* I mean the same logic of "I can't ever get over this, every day is pain and misery" that was described as being the existence for a rape survivor, could be applied to anyone who is suicidal. For them, whatever negative aspect of their life is something they can't overcome and move on from, thus driving them to want to die. So maybe this isn't an aspect of rape specifically, and just one facet of the larger issue of depression/suicide? *shrugs* Just a thought.

 

[Erttheking]

You can't exactly measure how bad something is. Life is a mess like that.

 

[mrgerry123]

Murder without question is worse for me although if I was suicidal I suppose I wouldn't mind as much. I think that rape is better because you have a choice of what to do afterwards whereas with murder you don't. Murder takes away far more of a persons freedoms than rape.

 

[Arshaq13]

The few examples in this thread, (and I admit I haven't read every one of them), that mentions that death is better than rape, seem to indicate this viewpoint is that of the victim. That in some cases the victim's ability to recover from the trauma, makes them feel that life isn't worth it, having to live through that event. And so for them, death is preferable to life. I personally don't agree with this mindset, but I'm also not a rape survivor, so I can't say how I would honestly react to it. I'd like to think I would be able to recover and find enjoyment in life, but I can't speak to that theoretical eventuality. I can understand that for some people, it might be impossible to move on, everyone is different, but I don't think that's the same as saying that rape victims, in general, are better off dead. I think it's more of a case by case basis, with the majority of people being able to recover from it, with your typical margin for variance of those who can't.

It's like you took the words right out of my mouth, back when I was a teen I was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt rape was worse than murder, the thought being that death was better for the victim compared to chance of severe lifelong trauma.
And then I grew up, became an adult and I finally realized what actual responsibilities are and now given the experiences I want to experience in life plus the thought of looking after your family after they retire being the only child and all, I don't know. Right now in the state of mind I have about how it's just become my biggest goal to give my family the easiest life they can have, I'd personally choose to be raped over being murdered.
But then again, even though I would like to say that I'm pretty arrogant and strong-headed and someone who's bounced back from a lot of things, I have no idea if I would ever recover after being raped even though I want to say I will..

This is all confusing ; what I am trying to say is that question like this can be pretty subjective. I'm not sure if there's a clear answer for this.

 

[Nieroshai]

Someone who has been raped can still live a meaningful life, albeit tinged by the experience. Someone who has been killed can't live at all. What's worse: violating someone's human rights for mere moments, or violating someone's primary human right permanently?

Pretty sure the impact of rape is slightly longer than 'mere' seconds of the physical act. Regardless of the minimization, is an equivalent prison sentence for a rapist to a first degree murderer acceptable to you?

Moments aren't seconds. Decades are moments compared to, well, forever. By no means was I diminishing how heinous rape is. My point was that my stance holds that murder is worse since it ends life rather than scarring it.

EDIT: I suppose I need to say more. As far as penalty (and we're talking about the law here) in both cases we are talking about violent crime. Rape is predation, and in many cases murder is predation, so those people do need to be kept away from society and/or closely watched as there's no reason to believe they won't do it again. Further than that, it's a case by case thing. Is this person a serial offender? Was the murder for personal gain or was the person provoked and therefore a volatile person in need of rehabilitation? Was the rape actual sexual assault, or was it sexual harassment? (I ask this because this actually comes up in court) There are a lot of factors and my knowledge is in forensic science, not the workings of court, so aside from what I've said so far, I just don't know. I just perceive death as a greater injustice than sexual violation.

 

[Lightknight]

At least a rape victim gets to decide if they want to move forward from it.

I doubt they get to decide that anymore than someone who's had a traumatic childhood gets to. Some things mark you for life and will negatively influence your day-to-day life and interactions with others for the rest of your life.

It's easy to say someone can just move on with their life, because hey, they're still alive. But would you say the same to someone who'd lost both their arms and legs?

What I mean is, they get to have the option of moving forward or not moving forward. This isn't an option for a murder victim.

People make it past rape all the time. Most of the time even. People with a traumatic childhood do too. Do you know what people never make it past their event or even have the option to not move past? People who are murdered. That's who.

Don't try to pretend that people experiencing trauma don't have more freedom over themselves than people who are dead. That's ridiculous. The person who kills makes the last decision that will ever be made for the person in their life. A person who rapes steals time from the person, potentially injures them, and traumatizes them but there is a day after and a very real road to recovery if they're willing to traverse it.

Am I honestly the only person insulted here? That people are saying rape victims are better off dead? I mean, holy crap. What a devaluation of people who have been raped. I mean, are we really so gung ho about elevating the status of the crime above murder that we're willing to write off its victims?

Yes, crimes are relative. But a person who was raped usually recovers. Committing a crime from which a person never and cannot recover is the ultimate crime. Compared to that, anything else may only be penultimate at best.

The few examples in this thread, (and I admit I haven't read every one of them), that mentions that death is better than rape, seem to indicate this viewpoint is that of the victim. That in some cases the victim's ability to recover from the trauma, makes them feel that life isn't worth it, having to live through that event. And so for them, death is preferable to life. I personally don't agree with this mindset, but I'm also not a rape survivor, so I can't say how I would honestly react to it. I'd like to think I would be able to recover and find enjoyment in life, but I can't speak to that theoretical eventuality. I can understand that for some people, it might be impossible to move on, everyone is different, but I don't think that's the same as saying that rape victims, in general, are better off dead. I think it's more of a case by case basis, with the majority of people being able to recover from it, with your typical margin for variance of those who can't.

Though it might be interesting to see if it's actually the rape that is causing the desire to not be alive anymore, or the fact that it has created a depressed/suicidal drive in the victim as a byproduct? *shrugs* I mean the same logic of "I can't ever get over this, every day is pain and misery" that was described as being the existence for a rape survivor, could be applied to anyone who is suicidal. For them, whatever negative aspect of their life is something they can't overcome and move on from, thus driving them to want to die. So maybe this isn't an aspect of rape specifically, and just one facet of the larger issue of depression/suicide? *shrugs* Just a thought.

https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

It seems to affect about 30% of the victims more extremely than the others and about 10% are impacted severely. So like 31% develop PTSD and 11% do not lose the diagnosis. Interestingly enough, women are more likely to develop PTSD if they are battered and children are more likely to develop it if they are abused than either category.

I mean, the numbers are pretty terrible, since it is a traumatic event. But this is nothing like a universal claim that they should have a bullet to the head or even that they would have preferred that.

As you pointed out it is highly relative and the more pertinent question would be if causing severe PTSD is worse than murder. I would still say no for all the reasons I gave above. Murder is the absolute end and no control is in the hands of the victim ever again.

 

[Lightknight]

You can't exactly measure how bad something is. Life is a mess like that.

It is certainly subjective to a point. But in a lot of ways social norms do provide some decent rules. For example, is murdering a human or murdering a grasshopper worse?

 

[happyninja42]

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https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

It seems to affect about 30% of the victims more extremely than the others and about 10% are impacted severely. So like 31% develop PTSD and 11% do not lose the diagnosis. Interestingly enough, women are more likely to develop PTSD if they are battered and children are more likely to develop it if they are abused than either category.

I mean, the numbers are pretty terrible, since it is a traumatic event. But this is nothing like a universal claim that they should have a bullet to the head or even that they would have preferred that.

As you pointed out it is highly relative and the more pertinent question would be if causing severe PTSD is worse than murder. I would still say no for all the reasons I gave above. Murder is the absolute end and no control is in the hands of the victim ever again.

Yeah, I mean I've heard the statements in this thread, from people paraphrasing victims who couldn't get over the trauma, and they sound exactly like the phrases I hear from the veterans I work with, who suffer from PTSD and depression. It's just a different traumatic event, the impact, and fallout from it is pretty similar across the spectrum though. And yes, this whole thread is simply an opinion piece, let's not forget that people. The OP asked us which one we thought was worse, that's not the same thing as definitively stating one is worse than the other. My personal opinion is that murder is worse, because everything ends for the victim there. There is no more chance for happiness, or fun, or anything, it's all over. But, for millions of people world wide, life is sometimes too painful for them, and they want it to end, just to feel an end to the pain. Whether it's from rape, war, abuse, their own actions they feel guilt over, whatever. Those people would have a different opinion from me. I don't share it, and I wish they didn't have it, because personally I feel that life is preferable to death, but I'm not them. I can only try and maybe help them change their minds, but in the end, it's their call.

 

[Lightknight]

Yeah, I mean I've heard the statements in this thread, from people paraphrasing victims who couldn't get over the trauma, and they sound exactly like the phrases I hear from the veterans I work with, who suffer from PTSD and depression. It's just a different traumatic event, the impact, and fallout from it is pretty similar across the spectrum though. And yes, this whole thread is simply an opinion piece, let's not forget that people. The OP asked us which one we thought was worse, that's not the same thing as definitively stating one is worse than the other. My personal opinion is that murder is worse, because everything ends for the victim there. There is no more chance for happiness, or fun, or anything, it's all over. But, for millions of people world wide, life is sometimes too painful for them, and they want it to end, just to feel an end to the pain. Whether it's from rape, war, abuse, their own actions they feel guilt over, whatever. Those people would have a different opinion from me. I don't share it, and I wish they didn't have it, because personally I feel that life is preferable to death, but I'm not them. I can only try and maybe help them change their minds, but in the end, it's their call.

Sure, but the question posed here was a blanket "Is it worse than death" and on that broad question the answer is certainly no.

For some people that may personally impact them in a way they believe they'd rather have died. But the act itself a universal they'd be better off dead? Hell no and that would be damn offensive to say. Which I think you agree with.

 

[rasta111]

It's a weighted question that clearly presumes rape is in fact worse than murder... I tend to agree. No one knows how they are going to die but rape destroys the innocence of all involved. It ruins people. There are fates worse than death.

Of course recovery is an option. No one recovers from murder. You could argue this in circles all day long and just make things seem worse than they are though.

I would suggest observation and prevention is the way forward in either case.

captcha: too many cooks... An interesting observation indeed captcha... Very interesting.

 

[Lightknight]

It's a weighted question that clearly presumes rape is in fact worse than murder... I tend to agree. No one knows how they are going to die but rape destroys the innocence of all involved. It ruins people. There are fates worse than death.

Of course recovery is an option. No one recovers from murder. You could argue this in circles all day long and just make things seem worse than they are though.

captcha: too many cooks... An interesting observation indeed captcha... Very interesting.

So your message to rape victims is that they are ruined and ergo it would have been more merciful had they been murdered them.

Where is this coming from? Am I honestly the only person still in this thread seeing this?

Look, recovery isn't just an option, it's the norm. In fact, only 30% suffer from PTSD at all and only 10% of that have PTSD long term.

 

[rasta111]

It's a weighted question that clearly presumes rape is in fact worse than murder... I tend to agree. No one knows how they are going to die but rape destroys the innocence of all involved. It ruins people. There are fates worse than death.

Of course recovery is an option. No one recovers from murder. You could argue this in circles all day long and just make things seem worse than they are though.

captcha: too many cooks... An interesting observation indeed captcha... Very interesting.

So your message is that rape victims are ruined and ergo it would have been more merciful to murder them.

Where is this coming from?

What did I say? Whatever I'm considering all parties here all violence begets more violence. Even rapists and murderers are people too. Obviously most would consider the victims first but one must also consider the cause of the problem here.

Introspection is a powerful thing.

Speak less use more. Problems are not all they appear from the outside.

 

[Lightknight]

What did I say? Whatever I'm considering all parties here all violence begets more violence. Even rapists and murderers are people too. Obviously most would consider the victims first but one must also consider the [b[cause[/b] of the problem here.

What? The destruction of innocence in the murderer/rapist is irrelevant. They're not murderers or rapists because they're wide eyed and bushy tailed innocent little softies. That's already happened.

Death is far more damage than rape. Telling rape victims that they're just ruined and better off dead is terrifyingly bad taste and not true in the least.

As I said above, though you posted while I was editing, only 30% of victims of rape develop PTSD. Of those, only 10% are long term PTSD sufferers. Most victims move on with their lives. You would rather they were robbed of that just so they wouldn't be "ruined" in your eyes?

 

[rasta111]

What did I say? Whatever I'm considering all parties here all violence begets more violence. Even rapists and murderers are people too. Obviously most would consider the victims first but one must also consider the [b[cause[/b] of the problem here.

What? The destruction of innocence in the murderer/rapist is irrelevant. They're not murderers or rapists because they're wide eyed and bushy tailed innocent little softies. That's already happened.

Death is far more damage than rape. Telling rape victims that they're just ruined and better off dead is terrifyingly bad taste and not true in the least.

As I said above, though you posted while I was editing, only 30% of victims of rape develop PTSD. Of those, only 10% are long term PTSD sufferers. Most victims move on with their lives. You would rather they were robbed of that just so they wouldn't be "ruined" in your eyes?

All of these things you speak of are just statistics maybe they're reassuring, maybe not, I'm talking from the point of view of both the victim and the assailant. Soldiers murder people all the time and no one bats an eye as long as it doesn't ruin their day. The psychological trauma in both cases is substantial enough from both sides of the picture to throw all that out the window.

Seriously if you were any of the above how much of your time would you want to spend thinking or reading about any of the above?

I'm guessing it wouldn't be a long time...

 

[Lightknight]

What did I say? Whatever I'm considering all parties here all violence begets more violence. Even rapists and murderers are people too. Obviously most would consider the victims first but one must also consider the [b[cause[/b] of the problem here.

What? The destruction of innocence in the murderer/rapist is irrelevant. They're not murderers or rapists because they're wide eyed and bushy tailed innocent little softies. That's already happened.

Death is far more damage than rape. Telling rape victims that they're just ruined and better off dead is terrifyingly bad taste and not true in the least.

As I said above, though you posted while I was editing, only 30% of victims of rape develop PTSD. Of those, only 10% are long term PTSD sufferers. Most victims move on with their lives. You would rather they were robbed of that just so they wouldn't be "ruined" in your eyes?

All of these things you speak of are just statistics maybe they're reassuring, maybe not, I'm talking from the point of view of both the victim and the assailant. Soldiers murder people all the time and no one bats an eye as long as it doesn't ruin their day. The psychological trauma in both cases is substantial enough from both sides of the picture to throw all that out the window.

Seriously if you were any of the above how much of your time would you want to spend thinking or reading about any of the above?

I'm guessing it wouldn't be a long time...

I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. The perpetrator experiences their own set of psychological ramifications for either action.

The victim is either dead or harmed depending on the action.

So the perpetuator's ramifications are irrelevant. Only the victim's.

Which is worse for the victim? Dead or having a chance at long term ramifications of the event?

 

[Ieyke]

You disappoint me, humans.
The correct answer is "It depends".
As in most issues of morality, there is no absolute black and white, only dark shades of grey.
It's situational and relative.
Depends entirely on the circumstances.

How can you not know that by now?

 

[rasta111]

What did I say? Whatever I'm considering all parties here all violence begets more violence. Even rapists and murderers are people too. Obviously most would consider the victims first but one must also consider the [b[cause[/b] of the problem here.

What? The destruction of innocence in the murderer/rapist is irrelevant. They're not murderers or rapists because they're wide eyed and bushy tailed innocent little softies. That's already happened.

Death is far more damage than rape. Telling rape victims that they're just ruined and better off dead is terrifyingly bad taste and not true in the least.

As I said above, though you posted while I was editing, only 30% of victims of rape develop PTSD. Of those, only 10% are long term PTSD sufferers. Most victims move on with their lives. You would rather they were robbed of that just so they wouldn't be "ruined" in your eyes?

All of these things you speak of are just statistics maybe they're reassuring, maybe not, I'm talking from the point of view of both the victim and the assailant. Soldiers murder people all the time and no one bats an eye as long as it doesn't ruin their day. The psychological trauma in both cases is substantial enough from both sides of the picture to throw all that out the window.

Seriously if you were any of the above how much of your time would you want to spend thinking or reading about any of the above?

I'm guessing it wouldn't be a long time...

I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. The perpetrator experiences their own set of psychological ramifications for either action.

The victim is either dead or harmed depending on the action.

So the perpetuator's ramifications are irrelevant. Only the victim's.

Which is worse for the victim? Dead or having a chance at long term ramifications of the event?

Wasn't that implied? Unquestionably dead in my opinion. Mileage may vary, obviously a rape victim has a better chance at recovery than a rapist, same as a murderer has a significantly better chance... Do not question the pyschological ramifications in all cases.

 

[Lightknight]

Wasn't that implied? Unquestionably dead in my opinion. Mileage may vary, obviously a rape victim has a better chance at recovery than a rapist, same as a murderer has a significantly better chance... Do not question the pyschological ramifications in all cases.

Wait... you agree that murder is the worst?

I may have entirely missed your posts intention then. I'm just going to back away slowly like nothing happened...

You disappoint me, humans.
The correct answer is "It depends".
As in most issues of morality, there is no absolute black and white, only dark shades of grey.
It's situational and relative.
Depends entirely on the circumstances.

How can you not know that by now?

That's not the way the law works. You get X amount of punishment in units of time for committing Y act. Said acts are evaluated respectively amongst each other and so X amount adjusts itself according to the relative harm.

With that in mind, rape is bad but is not equivalent to murder as far as scale and punishment deserved.

There are additional acts that could pile up to amount to the same or similar punishment. But by itself it's hard to match up to the "DEAD" card. You know?