Poll: rape worse than murder?

[Lightknight]

I'm not sure what you're still babbling about but my only point was semantics. Better is not worse. Worse can never be better. If you want to continue the horrific discussion though that's your business. Ciao.

If you can't be obliged to accept that words can have more than one definition and use then I simply cannot spend any more time in discussion with you. Some day, if you are ever a juror in a trial and some lawyer starts talking about the merits of the case you can bring your grievances against them instead.

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

Let's look at these two.
Justified murder, Hitler's right hand man shoots him in the back.
"Justified" rape, Hitler is raped by Soviet Soldiers. Not as satisfying or comfortable is it? I prefer my Hitler dead than raped and almost sympathetic.

Except, that wouldn't be considered murder. That would be considered killing someone to prevent further devastation to mankind.

I don't think the context of this discussion is regarding retributive murder or rape though. I think it's regarding the actions of a criminal against an innocent. The "in general" side of things to deal with a bigger picture. In general, which is worse?

Also, wrong, you should prefer your Hitler raped then dead.

 

[rasta111]

I'm not sure what you're still babbling about but my only point was semantics. Better is not worse. Worse can never be better. If you want to continue the horrific discussion though that's your business. Ciao.

If you can't be obliged to accept that words can have more than one definition and use then I simply cannot spend any more time in discussion with you. Some day, if you are ever a juror in a trial and some lawyer starts talking about the merits of the case you can bring your grievances against them instead.

Wow... Obliged to accept what? That my words don't mean what I say they mean? Or that they can only mean what you say they mean? Tight rope you're treading there sir and who said anything about my grievances except you for that matter? Look down and you might find it's not there... Again, ciao.

Maybe you could talk about the merits of discussing horrific things but I stand by what I said.

 

[happyninja42]

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

I'm pretty sure shoving foreign objects into one of the orifices of a person against their will is considered rape. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real world examples of people doing those things were charged with counts of rape. Like those cops who shoved a broomstick up a suspects butt. Maybe it would be sodomy? *shrugs* I dunno, to me it's rape though. You violated and penetrated my body against my wishes, whether it was a part of your body, or some other object, to me seems irrelevant. But of course, legal definitions it could be relevant.

 

[rasta111]

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

I'm pretty sure shoving foreign objects into one of the orifices of a person against their will is considered rape. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real world examples of people doing those things were charged with counts of rape. Like those cops who shoved a broomstick up a suspects butt. Maybe it would be sodomy? *shrugs* I dunno, to me it's rape though. You violated and penetrated my body against my wishes, whether it was a part of your body, or some other object, to me seems irrelevant. But of course, legal definitions it could be relevant.

The word is sodomy yes... Why that's relevant to anyone here is beyond me though... Let alone why anyone who it was relevant to would want to hear about any of that... Buuut knock yourselves out if you wish. Ooor you could pause for 5 minutes and think about what it is you're actually doing... I give up.

 

[Lightknight]

I'm not sure what you're still babbling about but my only point was semantics. Better is not worse. Worse can never be better. If you want to continue the horrific discussion though that's your business. Ciao.

If you can't be obliged to accept that words can have more than one definition and use then I simply cannot spend any more time in discussion with you. Some day, if you are ever a juror in a trial and some lawyer starts talking about the merits of the case you can bring your grievances against them instead.

Wow... Obliged to accept what? That my words don't mean what I say they mean? Or that they can only mean what you say they mean? Tight rope you're treading there sir and who said anything about my grievances except you for that matter? Look down and you might find it's not there... Again, ciao.

Maybe you could talk about the merits of discussing horrific things but I stand by what I said.

*sigh* No, I did not say that the word can't mean what you said it means. What I did say is that some words have more than one use and that you are failing to accept that. The merits of the case are not the good things of the case. They are merely the facts of the case. Saying that something has merit, however, means what you said it did.

Both definitions are appropriate in the correct context. If you are unwilling to recognize that then I simply don't know what else to tell you. The English language is a difficult language to fully grasp. I'm not saying that sarcastically at all. It can be very difficult so I do understand why you might attack the use of the term so vociferously despite me presenting and citing actual dictionaries that disagree with you if you really do have some kind of strong impenetrable definition of merits only ever meaning your one definition and not any of the others that apply to it.

If you still don't agree, then sorry, take it up with dictionaries, not me. I'm merely informing you of the reality of it.

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

I'm pretty sure shoving foreign objects into one of the orifices of a person against their will is considered rape. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real world examples of people doing those things were charged with counts of rape. Like those cops who shoved a broomstick up a suspects butt. Maybe it would be sodomy? *shrugs* I dunno, to me it's rape though. You violated and penetrated my body against my wishes, whether it was a part of your body, or some other object, to me seems irrelevant. But of course, legal definitions it could be relevant.

The word is sodomy yes... Why that's relevant to anyone here is beyond me though... Let alone why anyone who it was relevant to would want to hear about any of that... Buuut knock yourselves out if you wish. Ooor you could pause for 5 minutes and think about what it is you're actually doing... I give up.

Sodomy is merely anal sex. Force is not implied.

 

[rasta111]

Yeah you've got it all backwards mate. No one cares what you think you mean clearly. Semantics again. All that matters is what they interpret from your babbling... That's the reason discussions exist friend, not to attempt to force potentially false opinions onto others, unless you actually do believe everything you say is utterly infallible... Although I can see none of this interests you, another key factor, so I will leave you to continue whatever it is you think you're doing.

 

[McElroy]

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

I'm pretty sure shoving foreign objects into one of the orifices of a person against their will is considered rape. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real world examples of people doing those things were charged with counts of rape. Like those cops who shoved a broomstick up a suspects butt. Maybe it would be sodomy? *shrugs* I dunno, to me it's rape though. You violated and penetrated my body against my wishes, whether it was a part of your body, or some other object, to me seems irrelevant. But of course, legal definitions it could be relevant.

The word is sodomy yes... Why that's relevant to anyone here is beyond me though... Let alone why anyone who it was relevant to would want to hear about any of that... Buuut knock yourselves out if you wish. Ooor you could pause for 5 minutes and think about what it is you're actually doing... I give up.

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

 

[rasta111]

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

I'm pretty sure shoving foreign objects into one of the orifices of a person against their will is considered rape. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real world examples of people doing those things were charged with counts of rape. Like those cops who shoved a broomstick up a suspects butt. Maybe it would be sodomy? *shrugs* I dunno, to me it's rape though. You violated and penetrated my body against my wishes, whether it was a part of your body, or some other object, to me seems irrelevant. But of course, legal definitions it could be relevant.

The word is sodomy yes... Why that's relevant to anyone here is beyond me though... Let alone why anyone who it was relevant to would want to hear about any of that... Buuut knock yourselves out if you wish. Ooor you could pause for 5 minutes and think about what it is you're actually doing... I give up.

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

Wow... This is all meaningless semantics. Have you ever been raped? How about murdered...? Yeah, personally I'm failing to notice a substantial difference in either case really from that point of view, both are horrific... Worse is not better and better is not worse. I still think my original point stands. Better to be stone cold dead. Do you understand what a rape victim goes through. Think of stockholm syndrome for comparison. A murder victim... Well to be frank the murderer is worse off from a psychological standpoint.

 

[Lightknight]

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

I'm pretty sure shoving foreign objects into one of the orifices of a person against their will is considered rape. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real world examples of people doing those things were charged with counts of rape. Like those cops who shoved a broomstick up a suspects butt. Maybe it would be sodomy? *shrugs* I dunno, to me it's rape though. You violated and penetrated my body against my wishes, whether it was a part of your body, or some other object, to me seems irrelevant. But of course, legal definitions it could be relevant.

The word is sodomy yes... Why that's relevant to anyone here is beyond me though... Let alone why anyone who it was relevant to would want to hear about any of that... Buuut knock yourselves out if you wish. Ooor you could pause for 5 minutes and think about what it is you're actually doing... I give up.

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

I don't know, I also don't know when citing definitions from legitimate dictionaries became "forcing opinions" on others rather than citing a fact. I think in this scenario I'm better off not responding going forward.

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

The only reason I disagree with this is because it isn't entirely involuntary hardmode. 30% of victims deal with PTSD. 10% have it long term.

I'm cautious here because I don't want rape victims or potential victims to believe that they have a never ending struggle ahead of them. That isn't the norm at all and they are far more likely to go on to live a perfectly healthy life. Now, what is the difference between the 10% and the rest? I don't know.

 

[Lightknight]

Wow... This is all meaningless semantics. Have you ever been raped? How about murdered...? Yeah, personally I'm failing to notice a substantial difference in either case really from that point of view, both are horrific... Worse is not better and better is not worse. I still think my original point stands. Better to be stone cold dead. Do you understand what a rape victim goes through. Think of stockholm syndrome for comparison. A murder victim... Well to be frank the murderer is worse off from a psychological standpoint.

Stockholm syndrome is beginning to sympathize with your captors. I'm not sure that relates to this scenario unless the victim was held over time and even then is a separate issue.

Secondly, no, the murderer is not worse off. The damage they cause in society carries far more gravity than how they feel about what they've done. Their psychological damage is what led them to that point.

Lastly, claiming that it is better to be murdered than to be a rape victim seriously devalues the value of human life in both instances.

 

[rasta111]

... Thank you...

I still don't think you understand the actions in question though. Everything happens for a reason. Rape is like murdering someone from the inside out while murder is just killing. One should not be made to fear death.

This is precisely how rapists make their victims feel. Most rapes happen behind closed doors by the people closest to a person. Most murders are spur of the moment defensive actions. If someone is threatening to kill you that probably means they don't actually want to they simply want you to be afraid enough to comply with their demands.

Of course there's always serial-killers who generally do actually commit both at the same time... Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective doesn't it?

Think about the cause before the effect and I imagine you'll gain a better understanding of the issues present.

 

[Lightknight]

Who said any of that?... *looks up*

I edited it for clarification.

 

[Sarge034]

I don't think either is "worse". They are both equally bad in my opinion and I can't choose. I say they are both in the same tier of shittyness and deserve equal punishment.

 

[McElroy]

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

Wow... This is all meaningless semantics. Have you ever been raped? How about murdered...? Yeah, personally I'm failing to notice a substantial difference in either case really from that point of view, both are horrific... Worse is not better and better is not worse. I still think my original point stands. Better to be stone cold dead. Do you understand what a rape victim goes through. Think of stockholm syndrome for comparison. A murder victim... Well to be frank the murderer is worse off from a psychological standpoint.

The disagreement comes from the fact that I (among others in this thread) think there being a rape victim living and dealing with anything at all is better than not. Y'know, the chance that this victim can be a part of that 70% or more who can eventually deal with it. Sure, I don't know any rape victims - good for me, right? - but even my rather meaningless sympathy is more than nothing.

If I killed a toddler to steal their lollipop, I would save them from the distress caused by a lost lollipop... and actually from all distress ever! Taking solace in the murderer being more effed up than the corpse in their wake isn't a mindset I would recommend.

 

[rasta111]

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

Wow... This is all meaningless semantics. Have you ever been raped? How about murdered...? Yeah, personally I'm failing to notice a substantial difference in either case really from that point of view, both are horrific... Worse is not better and better is not worse. I still think my original point stands. Better to be stone cold dead. Do you understand what a rape victim goes through. Think of stockholm syndrome for comparison. A murder victim... Well to be frank the murderer is worse off from a psychological standpoint.

The disagreement comes from the fact that I (among others in this thread) think there being a rape victim living and dealing with anything at all is better than not. Y'know, the chance that this victim can be a part of that 70% or more who can eventually deal with it. Sure, I don't know any rape victims - good for me, right? - but even my rather meaningless sympathy is more than nothing.

If I killed a toddler to steal their lollipop, I would save them from the distress caused by a lost lollipop... and actually from all distress ever! Taking solace in the murderer being more effed up than the corpse in their wake isn't a mindset I would recommend.

OK, you're not going to like this but I'm saying it anyway, you're all talk.

Your toddler analogy is laughable, how do you know the toddler wasn't better off, IT'S AN IMAGINARY TODDLER...

No one knows quite what death is like to make any kind of comparison to what many understand extremely personally and do not like presumptuous people making light of their suffering with superficial views and nothing but a pat on the back and the simple words 'get over it'.

I know you don't realise it but you're spreading fear of death.

 

[Lightknight]

I know you don't realise it but you're spreading fear of death.

A fear of death is primal. It's a biological differentiator that makes us more fit for survival than a species that is not afraid of death.

What I know now is that life is good. To me anyways. So the unknown of death is naught but a risk of loss.

What's more is that death is inevitable but life is fleeting. So would it not be more apt to protect the limited supply of life until a time where the infinite supply of death takes over?

A death of a person is not merely loss for the person, but of loved ones and dependents. Lives upturned by grief like ripples in a pond from a stone thrown to ruin the serenity of it.

Do you know or believe that death is somehow preferable to life? Or are you touting it's unknowability as being inherently better than something else? That would be somewhat oxymoronic. That because something is unknown the presumption is better when it could just as easily be neutral or worse. Such is the nature of the unknown, you know?

May I ask what kind of philosophical or religious background you're hailing from? If there is a label you mostly or entirely fall under, me knowing that label would go a long way in assisting me in understanding your frame of reference. If you're anti labels at all then I apologize if the question is offensive.

 

[chuckman1]

I'm not sure what you're still babbling about but my only point was semantics. Better is not worse. Worse can never be better. If you want to continue the horrific discussion though that's your business. Ciao.

If you can't be obliged to accept that words can have more than one definition and use then I simply cannot spend any more time in discussion with you. Some day, if you are ever a juror in a trial and some lawyer starts talking about the merits of the case you can bring your grievances against them instead.

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

Let's look at these two.
Justified murder, Hitler's right hand man shoots him in the back.
"Justified" rape, Hitler is raped by Soviet Soldiers. Not as satisfying or comfortable is it? I prefer my Hitler dead than raped and almost sympathetic.

Except, that wouldn't be considered murder. That would be considered killing someone to prevent further devastation to mankind.

I don't think the context of this discussion is regarding retributive murder or rape though. I think it's regarding the actions of a criminal against an innocent. The "in general" side of things to deal with a bigger picture. In general, which is worse?

Also, wrong, you should prefer your Hitler raped then dead.

The killer would be called a murderer for shooting the fuhrer and be executed there's no way to avoid it. Hell even killing Stalin seems justified to me, but it is still murder unless they have a gun pointed at you.

 

[McElroy]

OK, you're not going to like this but I'm saying it anyway, you're all talk.

Your toddler analogy is laughable, how do you know the toddler wasn't better off, IT'S AN IMAGINARY TODDLER...

No one knows quite what death is like to make any kind of comparison to what many understand extremely personally and do not like presumptuous people making light of their suffering with superficial views and nothing but a pat on the back and the simple words 'get over it'.

I know you don't realise it but you're spreading fear of death.

Hey, the toddler with the lollipop was supposed to be laughable. Probably not in the way you took it but still.

If having a shred of sympathy for rape victims or victims in general is making light of their situation then what would be the alternative? Would it be better that they didn't know what people might think of their situation? Attach an unknown element to that as well. I don't know. Maybe in some case, maybe not in another. But I have sympathy for people in horrific experiences - it's just there.

I get it, you're saying we shouldn't judge death but treat it as unknowable. However, I value life, and so instead of spreading fear of death I'd say I'm promoting survival.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

From the perspective of the victim? Rape, of course. You've to cope with that shit first. If you get killed, you're dead and you don't care.

From the perspective of everyone around you? The other way around. They feel sorry for you if you're raped, but can only help you by being there. But if you're murdered everyone around you loses you.

So it's a matter of perspective. Since the victim is the main "protagonist" in both cases i'd say rape, because as i said: if you're dead, you don't care anymore.

 

[sumanoskae]

You will survive rape. No matter how awful it is, there is still hope. Our culture is desensitized to the concept of violence, but (Here in the USA, at least) your average middle class citizen will never have to actually come face to face with the permanence of murder.

You can argue that the psychology of the rapist is of a higher class of depravity than that of the killer, but the cruelty of the act does not directly correlate with it's consequences.

Life can never be recovered or replaced. The damage caused by rape at least has the potential to be healed.