Poll: Security Guards V.S. 12-year old punk

[MrTub]

That might be true in your country but in Sweden its considered abuse if you lay hands on your kid. So with our laws its actually the same.

That's government for you. We still have silly laws on the books here in the U.S., too. Like in Texas. If two trains come to a crossing, both must stop, and neither may proceed until the other has passed.

Well you might find it silly, but I find the notion that you should be allowed to slap somebody just because its your kid is pretty silly as well.

I'm curious, then. How would you go about teaching a child that there are consequences to their actions? Because in my experience time out, grounding, taking something away, etc. doesn't work. What's your idea, then?

Well I will most likely never get kids so hopefully I will never have to deal with it. But I guess I would treat them like people? And if it doesn't work, then why am i not a sociopath that doesnt respect authority and goes around beating people?

I do not know anyone that was spanked/abused when they was kid and guess what.. They are good people.

You present a valid point, and I thank you for that (I also respect your intention to avoid having children), but you still did not answer my question. "Treat them like people" is vague and imprecise. How would you treat them like people, and how would this influence them? Cause and effect, action and consequence, how would you teach these concepts to someone with a child's understanding of the world; someone who is driven by id and impulse and will not believe the stove is hot until they put their hand on it?

Honestly? Im not completely sure on how to deal with kids. But I guess I would try to act like my parents, which gave me respect and trusted me and the worst part when I did something wrong wasnt that they would be angry its more the feeling of seeing them being disappointed.

 

[v3n0mat3]

Good. He brought that stupid little shit down for kicking him in the kneecap. Now, if he'd have beaten him within an inch of his life, well, that'd be wrong...

 

[Snipercam7]

Also, I don't see where they search his bag. I see them putting his hat in the bag, but not a search..

 

[Agayek]

besides kids thesedays on average are undisiplined with no respect. Maybe if parents would actually do something we wouldn't have to.

I'm just gonna point out that just about every generation says that of the next one. Surest sign you're getting old.

PS - I love your avatar by the way. Deadpool wins at everything forever.

 

[anthony87]

That might be true in your country but in Sweden its considered abuse if you lay hands on your kid. So with our laws its actually the same.

That's government for you. We still have silly laws on the books here in the U.S., too. Like in Texas. If two trains come to a crossing, both must stop, and neither may proceed until the other has passed.

Well you might find it silly, but I find the notion that you should be allowed to slap somebody just because its your kid is pretty silly as well.

I'm curious, then. How would you go about teaching a child that there are consequences to their actions? Because in my experience time out, grounding, taking something away, etc. doesn't work. What's your idea, then?

Well I will most likely never get kids so hopefully I will never have to deal with it. But I guess I would treat them like people? And if it doesn't work, then why am i not a sociopath that doesnt respect authority and goes around beating people?

I do not know anyone that was spanked/abused when they was kid and guess what.. They are good people.

"Spanked" is NOT the same as "Abused".

Honestly, why is it so hard for people to grasp this concept?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that spanking somebody is ABUSE IN SWEDEN.

....Because I'm not Swedish?

So? I am swedish and therefor I see it as abuse, should I change my opinion so it can fit your view better or?

Ah no, it'd be rude of me to expect you to do that. And to answer your "So?"(Which I find to be very confusing considering you asked me a question and I answered):

So because I and lots of other people in this thread are from countries where spanking is considered a legitimate punishment, we can't help but see it as just that.

Wait...wasn't this about a security guard and a kid. I think I'm starting to go off-topic.

My bad.

 

[Electric Alpaca]

I'm getting pretty bored of this culture of 'complain and get favour'. The reason why this kid is as much of a terror here is because of the storm that gets kicked up in response.

All children will see from this is that acting up is fine, and the punishment for them doing so is what gets lauded.

The media concern themselves with supposed bad influences in games and film, obviously fictitious entities; this is the real bad influence here.

Who cares though right? As long as those valued ratings are gathered. We need the value of consequence to be instilled back into the raising of our children.

 

[StarTrekSamurai]

The job of a security guard is to 1) Protect the client, personnel and property, and 2) Protect the guests of the facility. This is what the guards were doing, using the least amount of force possible, given the situation. In the story that's been linked to, http://www.thelocal.se/36574/20111006/ , the kid clearly admits to behaving irresponsibly with the trains, and repeating the action after being confronted by the guards. For all the people crying, "they're just being stupid, if they hurt themselves, so what?", imagine if that did happen. The mother would, instead, be outraged that the security guards didn't do anything, and the train station would likely be hit with a huge lawsuit. They protected the client and the people. Doing their job.

When they detained the kid, again, after he had repeated what they told him not to do, he and his friends try to escalate the situation by getting in their face, hurling insults and murder threats. The guards keep the situation calm and do not escalate anything until the detained kid starts kicking at the guard's knee, which is when he was put on the ground, using minimal force. One of the other members of the kid's group rushes toward the guard, which is when the baton comes out, causing him to back off. No further action is taken until backup arrives.

These guards did exactly what they should have done; they protected the client, the people and themselves using as little force as was required. They showed great restraint and did not abuse their position. Kudos to them on a job well done.

 

[Thistlehart]

That might be true in your country but in Sweden its considered abuse if you lay hands on your kid. So with our laws its actually the same.

That's government for you. We still have silly laws on the books here in the U.S., too. Like in Texas. If two trains come to a crossing, both must stop, and neither may proceed until the other has passed.

Well you might find it silly, but I find the notion that you should be allowed to slap somebody just because its your kid is pretty silly as well.

I'm curious, then. How would you go about teaching a child that there are consequences to their actions? Because in my experience time out, grounding, taking something away, etc. doesn't work. What's your idea, then?

Well I will most likely never get kids so hopefully I will never have to deal with it. But I guess I would treat them like people? And if it doesn't work, then why am i not a sociopath that doesnt respect authority and goes around beating people?

I do not know anyone that was spanked/abused when they was kid and guess what.. They are good people.

You present a valid point, and I thank you for that (I also respect your intention to avoid having children), but you still did not answer my question. "Treat them like people" is vague and imprecise. How would you treat them like people, and how would this influence them? Cause and effect, action and consequence, how would you teach these concepts to someone with a child's understanding of the world; someone who is driven by id and impulse and will not believe the stove is hot until they put their hand on it?

Honestly? Im not completely sure on how to deal with kids. But I guess I would try to act like my parents, which gave me respect and trusted me and the worst part when I did something wrong wasnt that they would be angry its more the feeling of seeing them being disappointed.

Now that's a good answer, thank you. I agree 100%.

Please understand that I don't advocate physical discipline as the sole method of teaching. That would be incorrect in the extreme, but depending on the circumstances and the child it is sometimes necessary to deliver a short, sharp shock. It immediately instills a sense of action-consequence that can be expanded upon later.

Spanking a child is not the same as beating them. A child getting a swat when they're being naughty is the equivalent of realizing that touching a hot stove is painful. It's one thing to put a dab of soap on your finger and wipe it on a child's tongue for swearing, it's another thing entirely to hold them down and pour the bottle in their mouth. Later, you only have to reach for the soap for the child to realize what they just did wrong and apologize.

 

[Cutlesnap]

I find this whole discussing quite disturbing, and I'm honestly wondering what video the people supporting the guard in this thread watched.

Now, I want to speak my mind, but I don't want to get drawn into the name calling I see in a lot of these posts, so I'll just tell you what I saw:

For the first two minutes, I see a very large guard holding a small child in an unnecessarily painful hold. I *can't* hold my elbow that high over my shoulder, and although a 12-year-old is going to be quite a bit more nimble, it probably still hurts. At first I assumed the kid had been shoplifting or something, and I thought it was out of line. Speculating about what may have made this called for, I thought the kid might have attacked the guard, or someone else. When I then read the kid was restrained not for something as minor as being reckless, as we all were at that age, I was amazed. The guard was bullying the kid. Hurting him for no reason, when a normal guard would have simply held on to the kid in a non-painful manner.

Meanwhile, his friends are running around being little shits, and the restrained kid is probably shouting nasty stuff too.

Then, at the 2-minute mark, there's something I clearly see very differently from most people in this thread. The kid is trying to climb out of a painful hold! Most people here claim he is kicking the guard, but it's far to slow to be kicking! And you can see the kid trying to get his arms out of the guards arm.

I could go on, but on whether the rest is appropriate hangs on your interpretation of the preceding, and this is getting too long.

I also wonder why he was just standing there, and, at the end, dragging the kid off. A security guard is only allowed to restrain people under very specific conditions, usually to wait for the police. Is that what they were doing?

The reason the fact that the kid is 12 is not so much relevant in and of itself, but because it results in this: The kid is tiny, and the guard is huge. A man that big should be able to restrain a kid that small without having to resort to violence.

But the most disturbing thing is the people saying this is good because the kid needs to "respect authority". I honestly don't know how to respond to that without pulling some form of a Godwin. In democracies we are governed by 'Rule of Law', and authority in no way keeps people from having to justify their actions. Security guards have no special privileges, and he's either be right or wrong regardless of uniform.

Oh, and in a vain attempt to prevent to black-and-whiting so prevalent in this thread: I'm not saying the kid and his friends aren't behaving like little shits. I'm not saying they shouldn't have had some proper degree of punishment. I'm saying that the guard initiated violence with the painful restraint, that I don't think the kid was kicking the guard, but trying to get out of the restraint. I think if the guard had held the kid in a normal manner from the start, there would have been no violence.

 

[Brad Shepard]

I see a bunch of people going "Oh, hes 12, what the fuck?" Or stuff like that, really people, what? 12 year olds know what right and wrong are, and from what i understand, Darwinism should have taken effect when these morons where riding trains in between the junctions. You go to any country, and you see some kids doing something completely retarded, like train dodging or playing frogger in real life, the cops are going to stop them, but in this case, a guard stopped them, and i support this man for doing his job. and from what else i understand, the other kids where yelling just vile things at him, hell, im surprised he did not do more.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

Lets see:
Kid kicking the guard? Thats called attempt at self-defence.
Dragging feet? Normal thing to do if you are dragged against your will.

The guard drawing the baton: Way out of line and if the laws in Sweden are anywhere near those in Denmark then hitting the kid (no matter how hard) constitutes assault on a kid and that is illegal.
All a private guard is allowed to do is restrain a person. Not use force.

So no matter what the kid do the guards are way out of line. If they where threatened they should call the police.

Kid kicking the guard? LOL That's called resisting arrest.

Well guards are not allowed to make an arrest, only the police are Guards may detain them without using weapons, cuffs or violence and may defend themselves aganst attacks with an EQUAL force. That means no batons unless the kid used a weapon.

 

[Commissar Sae]

I disagree that he had it coming, a distrust of authority is very healthy indeed.

Oh joy another ''Lol anarchist XD ANARCHY IN THE U.K.'' idiot.

Actually, no.

I do not support anarchy, but I dont believe in allowing authority figures to roll right over citizens, unfortunately, some people like yourself seem to wish for a totalitarian government that eliminates your rights.

See? I can generalize too.

The right place to be is actually somewhere in the middle. A totalitarian system would beat that kid down every bit as much as an anarchic one (hell he propbably would have suffered a whole lot more on either extreme), the only thing that changes is who is doing the beatings, government goons, privately hired goons or just pissed off guys on the street. Thats why we have a serious discussion on the matter and get other authorities to look into it.

OT: I feel we take a too lenient leaning on kids a lot of the time these days. Theres a middle ground that needs to be reached though, too lenient breeds mouthbreathing little snots that feel they're allowed to do anything. Too much discipline and you stiffle their ability to learn. Although honestly most of that work needs to be done by their parents rather than the system. If the kid is a shithead its his parents fault not society's.

 

[Agayek]

So I watched the video again, and I have to say, am I the only one who thinks this video would be awesome if played to the audio from the "Dennis the Peasant" scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail? I can totally see it now, with the kid up against the wall screaming "COME SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!"

 

[Jwyrd]

The job of a security guard is to 1) Protect the client, personnel and property, and 2) Protect the guests of the facility. This is what the guards were doing, using the least amount of force possible, given the situation. In the story that's been linked to, http://www.thelocal.se/36574/20111006/ , the kid clearly admits to behaving irresponsibly with the trains, and repeating the action after being confronted by the guards. For all the people crying, "they're just being stupid, if they hurt themselves, so what?", imagine if that did happen. The mother would, instead, be outraged that the security guards didn't do anything, and the train station would likely be hit with a huge lawsuit. They protected the client and the people. Doing their job.

When they detained the kid, again, after he had repeated what they told him not to do, he and his friends try to escalate the situation by getting in their face, hurling insults and murder threats. The guards keep the situation calm and do not escalate anything until the detained kid starts kicking at the guard's knee, which is when he was put on the ground, using minimal force. One of the other members of the kid's group rushes toward the guard, which is when the baton comes out, causing him to back off. No further action is taken until backup arrives.

These guards did exactly what they should have done; they protected the client, the people and themselves using as little force as was required. They showed great restraint and did not abuse their position. Kudos to them on a job well done.

I would love to put "^THIS" and leave it like that, and if it were not for the fact that I would be doing your post an injustice, I would.

It is not an easy thing being a security guard. Especially when dealing with children that feel that they are above everyone else, and especially when dealing with groups, or mini-mobs. The fact that the kids were video taping this proves that something was going to happen. The other kids got into the guards face and tried making something happen.

And as for the kicking the guard in the knee, it could have been the kid trying to get away. Or it could have been the kid trying to trip the guard so that he would be overbalanced and easily piled upon/attacked by the kids friends.

Most people shrug off security guards, call them rent a cops, and think very poorly of them. Often treating them like sub-humans because they are employed to be a service in many locations. And often times, that lack of respect leads to physical confrontations between those that are actively trying to do wrong and create problems and those that are tasked with keeping people out of harm and making sure things don't go terribly wrong.

If you think that most security guards have it easy, a good friend of mine was working security in a restaurant. Now, the only reason he was even there was because every now and again, it got a bit rowdy, since there was a bar tied to the place. It was a family diner, with a back room that stayed open at night for drinks after they closed down the grill. A patron was a few sheets to the wind and smacking the waitress on the backside when my friend calmly asked him to not touch the staff. Without warning, without provocation, and without a lead up of increasingly belligerent threats, the patron pulled out a gun and shot my friend in the stomach six times. He survived, but it was touch and go in the hospital and he nearly died of complications later.

When a situation can go from simply telling a kid 'stop climbing on that rail, you're going to get hurt - and if you don't stop I'll have you taken out of here' to being surrounded and potentially attacked by a group of that kids friends, it stops being about 'kids being kids' because those 'kids' were not acting like 'kids' and more 'punks fully capable of attacking and hurting others for no other reason than they feel like it'.

 

[Mjauv]

What had happened was that the kid was riding between the tram-cars which is both foolish AND dangerous. Really dangerous.

What he's saying to the guards are:
"let go of me you fucking whore"
"let go"
*groan of, probably, pain*
"let go of me you fucking whore, LET GO OFF ME!!!"
"I swear to god I'm gonna fucking murder you, you fucking whore"
*more groaning*
"fucking whore"
"you shall fucking let me go" (he's trying to give the guard an order)
"let me go" (the guard tells him no)
"you are breaking my fucking arm"
*at this point he starts kicking the guard*
"you fucking whore" (at this point, the guard says "STOP KICKING" and wrestle him to the ground)
at the ground, more groaning of pain
"enough! Ah my leg!"
"ah he [the guard] fucking hit me"
"let me go"
(the guard explains to a bypasser that the kid kicked him at about 02:30)
"well he kicked me IN THE FOOT! FUCKING WHORE!!!"
"Get off!"
"I'm not kicking! Let me go!"
(at about 03:05 he says something I can't hear exactly but I do think he says something like "back off, you oughta watch your fucking back")
at 04:20 when the other guards arrive the guards tells him that he's under arrest under PL13 (Police Law §13 which is disturbing the peace)
"what are you doing?"
"what the fuck are you laughing about?" (directed to somebody outside the picture)

the kids friends start off by telling the guards about his age and that he won't be prosecuted, they then go back and forth between insults ("fucking cunts", "assholes" and such) and claiming "he didn't do anything"

 

[MrTub]

I find this whole discussing quite disturbing, and I'm honestly wondering what video the people supporting the guard in this thread watched.

Now, I want to speak my mind, but I don't want to get drawn into the name calling I see in a lot of these posts, so I'll just tell you what I saw:

For the first two minutes, I see a very large guard holding a small child in an unnecessarily painful hold. I *can't* hold my elbow that high over my shoulder, and although a 12-year-old is going to be quite a bit more nimble, it probably still hurts. At first I assumed the kid had been shoplifting or something, and I thought it was out of line. Speculating about what may have made this called for, I thought the kid might have attacked the guard, or someone else. When I then read the kid was restrained not for something as minor as being reckless, as we all were at that age, I was amazed. The guard was bullying the kid. Hurting him for no reason, when a normal guard would have simply held on to the kid in a non-painful manner.

Meanwhile, his friends are running around being little shits, and the restrained kid is probably shouting nasty stuff too.

Then, at the 2-minute mark, there's something I clearly see very differently from most people in this thread. The kid is trying to climb out of a painful hold! Most people here claim he is kicking the guard, but it's far to slow to be kicking! And you can see the kid trying to get his arms out of the guards arm.

I could go on, but on whether the rest is appropriate hangs on your interpretation of the preceding, and this is getting too long.

I also wonder why he was just standing there, and, at the end, dragging the kid off. A security guard is only allowed to restrain people under very specific conditions, usually to wait for the police. Is that what they were doing?

The reason the fact that the kid is 12 is not so much relevant in and of itself, but because it results in this: The kid is tiny, and the guard is huge. A man that big should be able to restrain a kid that small without having to resort to violence.

But the most disturbing thing is the people saying this is good because the kid needs to "respect authority". I honestly don't know how to respond to that without pulling some form of a Godwin. In democracies we are governed by 'Rule of Law', and authority in no way keeps people from having to justify their actions. Security guards have no special privileges, and he's either be right or wrong regardless of uniform.

Oh, and in a vain attempt to prevent to black-and-whiting so prevalent in this thread: I'm not saying the kid and his friends aren't behaving like little shits. I'm not saying they shouldn't have had some proper degree of punishment. I'm saying that the guard initiated violence with the painful restraint, that I don't think the kid was kicking the guard, but trying to get out of the restraint. I think if the guard had held the kid in a normal manner from the start, there would have been no violence.

Ok, lets see it from the guard point of view. You have a minor that is calling you whore, fuck off and die, I will kill you. You also got lots of his friends around which you need to keep attention to, and then you feel the minor that you got in armlock (or whatever you want to call it) starts to kick you. Would you really think that he is just trying to get free?

And honestly what kind of people do you know if you think its normal to ride trains (aka risk your life) at age 12?

 

[Frost27]

At about 1:58 the kid appears to spit in the guard's face. The guard turns his head but doesn't retaliate, that is when the kid starts kicking him. Also, he did not hit him with the ASP. He snapped it out with a wrist flick but did not make contact. It is an odd camera angle but the apparent asp "strike" was just a deployment.

I think the guard acted in a reasonable and professional manner and he only escalated the force used to detain the kid when the kid forced the situation.

Had that been here in the states, the kid would have been either tasered or seasoned heavily with pepper spray before the cuffs even went on. Then if he struggled he would have been beaten with the baton in question.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

Maybe I'm missing something but all I saw was a Security Guard put a kid on the ground and kneel on him. They do this to anyone whose acting irrational or violent. Swearing, threats of violence, spitting, ECT are all reasons for you to have a guard pin you down.

Kneeling on a person can in some cases lead to a lifethreatening situation since you are restricting the airways of the person you are kneeling on. The guard could be charged with dangerous assault. It is as far as I am aware illegal to do in Denmark, even for the police since people have died of it.

 

[HavoK 09]

snip

snip

He's twelve, guys. TWELVE! Twelve. Years. Old. I get it, children are often annoying online and it's fun seeing the assholes who ruin your multiplayer gaming experience get a beating but that still doesn't change the fact that we're talking about a child here, not an adult.

You two keep talking about common sense and how at your age you understood bla and bla but did you really? I mean here you are, at an age when you're supposed to have "common sense", condoning violence against children and you have the audacity to claim you "understand" what common sense is? Really?

and if he is 12? I have been in trouble too during that age, I had a problem at a shopping centre too and the guards spoke to me and my friends but instead of kicking the guard or acting tough we decided to lay low and avoid further problems because we were told to behave like that, if you get yourself into some shit you shouldn't struggle to get even deeper.

Violence is never the best awnser but sometimes it can be efficient enough to tell you DO NOT KICK A GUARD THAT IS THE DOUBLE OF YOU!, if that was a random thug the kid could have been even worse

 

[holy_secret]

Colleagues of mine.
I don't think they acted out of order. I would've done the same in their shoes. Fortunately, I've never had to do anything that comes close to violent.

The reason the guard pushed the kid down to the ground was because he started kicking the guard. The guard explained this a few seconds later, but the kid was denying the fact, instead choosing to scream "you hit me you hit me!".

That kid had it coming.