Poll: Should Link be female in the next Lengend Of Zelda

[EvilRoy]

Forgive me for intruding on what looks like one hell of a quotathon up there, but I'm just going to quickly add my thoughts. Changing the gender of a character just for the sake of changing the gender, or trying to be progressive seems to me to be a stupid move. If you can establish a decent reason for why Link is suddenly female, and how her new story will be different then fine. But by that point, why not just create a new character entirely?

Captcha: public good. What are you saying? -.-

If you'd just read a few of the posts before posting...

We have discussed all this so much, you can gain so much more by reading before posting and could probably post some more relevant of your insight.

I mean you talks as if there is only one character of Link that would have to be changed, rather than the actual case where almost every Zelda game released the Link is a completely new character.

And the idea that this is trying to be "progressive" (hasn't Fox News made that a dirty word) rather than how the Link Mythos inevitably leads to a hero rising from the population who is courageous enough, 50% of the pool is female, it's becoming increasingly likely that the next Hero of Hyrule will be female.

But that's for the opportunity to summarise.

Having read most of this thread I can say there is very little to be taken away from the past posts. To the extent of it being difficult to believe that these posts are actually responses to each other and not simply lists of non-sequiturs.

To the meat of your post:
It seems odd to me that people who aren't Zelda fans are expected to know the 'multi link theory', or indeed have an investment in it. People have pitched the same idea to me with regards to James Bond, but I can't help but not really care. I'm watching the movie to see an Englishman of varying age, temperament and hair colour kill people and fight megalomaniacs. Expecting me to worry how the films lead into one another is akin to expecting me to wonder about the true place of the baked snack I'm eating in the hierarchy of our social structure. When I play Zelda games, I'm playing to solve simple puzzles and experience acceptable combat, not to sweat the order or interactions between games.

Assuming then that I accept the multi-link theory, now you're asking me which particular sect of Hindu-Buddhist reincarnation I believe in. There are some that readily assert that a male remains male life to life, while others assert that cross-gender reincarnation is possible. Having said that, there are yet further groups that feel the best explanation for homosexual desires is that the soul itself has a gender regardless of, and if necessary in spite of, the body that it comes to inhabit incarnation to incarnation.

The statement that the incarnation of Link as female is inevitable implies to me that not only do cross-gender reincarnations occur in this universe, but they are mandatory (tossing aside those groups that feel an enlightened soul is capable of influencing their next existence) and follow statistical systems.

You're asking me to swallow a lot here, with little to back it up. As an average legend of zelda fan, if I turn on the next game and link is female with no explanation? I'm just going to assume I'm playing as zelda.

 

[GestaltEsper]

I don't see why and I don't see why not.

 

[Brainwreck]

Link should be a gypsy hermaphrodite gay lesbian (see, it's because a hermaphrodite is somewhere inbetween a male and a female)

There. Progress.
You may hand over my Nobel now.

 

[Negatempest]

Wow, some serious fanboyism/misogyny against a female Link.....why? Seriously why? Link, in a nutshell, is an avatar of an adventurer destined to free a long lost royal individual. So if Link being female goes against the whole lore because, even though there is no basis at all whatsoever that Link will always only be a male, I dunno um it doesn't matter thus they shouldn't do it because it is an empty promise to the lower minority...

The **** bull*** train of thought is that? Think about it for a sec. You as an individual say a gender swap should not happen because it will only make the female players happy? You say it as if a female adventurer can NEVER exist and a pansy/weak male lead could never exist....the **** trail of thought is that?

When you do a gender swap of such a character as Link, ESPECIALLY LINK, you start thinking deep about what makes Link..well Link. Is this individual forever destined to fulfill the prophecy set long before he/she is born regardless of how he/she starts off in the world?

I would like one good reason. ONE honest, could destroy the entire lore of Hyrule, reason why Link cannot be female. Will it ruin the lore somehow...no. Will the world blow up...no. What will it do? IT will for a FACT show which game players are Misogyny pricks....

Hell, Samus was considered one of the most manliest of men before you found out the secret he was actually a she.

 

[Treblaine]

It seems odd to me that people who aren't Zelda fans are expected to know the 'multi link theory', or indeed have an investment in it. People have pitched the same idea to me with regards to James Bond, but I can't help but not really care. I'm watching the movie to see an Englishman of varying age, temperament and hair colour kill people and fight megalomaniacs. Expecting me to worry how the films lead into one another is akin to expecting me to wonder about the true place of the baked snack I'm eating in the hierarchy of our social structure. When I play Zelda games, I'm playing to solve simple puzzles and experience acceptable combat, not to sweat the order or interactions between games.

Assuming then that I accept the multi-link theory, now you're asking me which particular sect of Hindu-Buddhist reincarnation I believe in. There are some that readily assert that a male remains male life to life, while others assert that cross-gender reincarnation is possible. Having said that, there are yet further groups that feel the best explanation for homosexual desires is that the soul itself has a gender regardless of, and if necessary in spite of, the body that it comes to inhabit incarnation to incarnation.

The statement that the incarnation of Link as female is inevitable implies to me that not only do cross-gender reincarnations occur in this universe, but they are mandatory (tossing aside those groups that feel an enlightened soul is capable of influencing their next existence) and follow statistical systems.

You're asking me to swallow a lot here, with little to back it up. As an average legend of zelda fan, if I turn on the next game and link is female with no explanation? I'm just going to assume I'm playing as zelda.

It's not a dubious unproven fan theory, Wind Waker explicitly spelled it out.

It also has nothing to do with inheritance or reincarnation either, they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS!

It said that the Link of Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks is not related at all by bloodline nor anything to the Link of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. And that many times before there has been a Link. It is also made clear in Wind Waker of the hyrule tradition of young adventures wearing the green tunic.

It's not reincarnation, it's not any person's soul in many different bodies.

You do understand how many people can adopt the same name... but be completely different people?

"not only do cross-gender reincarnations occur in this universe"

Look, Where the HELL did you get this reincarnation crap from?!?! Link in Wind Waker has NO KNOWLEDGE of the Link of Ocarina of time, nothing at all suggest any sort of reincarnation. Only the "Hero of Time Reborn" which is not to say it's the same person's soul, but that another completely different person has risen to earn the title.

"You're asking me to swallow a lot here"

No, you brought up the whole reincarnation crap and acting as if there was no explicit statement in the whole Zelda series that the different Links were different unrelated individuals who merely adopted the same role.

PS: James Bond is hardly unrelated, after Sean Connery every James Bond was a stand-alone narrative, so each film was a reset. Craig's Bond changed that for the first time since Sean Connery's Bond each film was a true sequel to the previous.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

CHANGE REQUIRES JUSTIFICATION Mr. JimB...not women.

This, like the Samus metaphors you make further on in your posts, make no sense to me.

You said "I have never once seen anyone answer why it should be accepted without question that men do not require plot justification but women do."

I am clarifying for you that it has nothing to do with changing from man to woman and more to do with the "change" in general. Make sense?

Now, keeping in mind that:

[HEADING=2]THERE IS ONLY MORE THAN ONE LINK BECAUSE THEY NEEDED TO FILL A PLOT HOLE[/HEADING]

I still agree that, canonically, it COULD make sense... but it would drastically change the way that the role of Link is perceived. This change is unnecessary and would be hackneyed like everything else that has recently pulled a politically correct gimmick like this.

"The way it has always been written" is a bad answer. People were killed in the Dark Ages for not using leeches to cure diseases because "that's the way it was always done," and never mind that the leeches didn't work.

Oh... um... hey, what the fuck are you talking about? Jesus Christ I hope you try to defend this insane leap of a straw man that you just somehow pulled on me.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MAINTAINING A WRITING STYLE IS LIKE USING LEECHES IN THE DARK AGES AS PROVEN BY THIS ABSOLUTE BRILLIANT METAPHOR OF JimB. I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE COMES UP WITH THIS STUFF.

Seriously...

I have NO fucking clue...

...

Anyway...

Nevertheless, it is canon. You can't argue that Link has to stay male because that's the tradition while claiming the tradition that would allow for a female Link doesn't count. If you want the traditions to be valid reasons for basing decisions on them, you can't cherry-pick.

I'M NOT SAYING IT WOULD OR WOULDN'T MAKE SENSE.

YES it could be explained canonically. I've said this so much.

But the idea of Link WAS developed around this idea of this elfin boy and that's why he works so well as an elfin boy. To change that would change A LOT of the main themes of the series.

There would not have to be plot to differentiate female Link from male Link, because--and perhaps this is only in the game I'd be interested in--the entire point of a female Link would be that female imaginary elves are every bit as good as male imaginary elves at beating up imaginary wizards and saving imaginary princesses.

Okay, so you're just straight up admitting it. The only part of the game you'd care about is that a female protagonist would usurp a male protagonist. You don't care how it affects the plot. You don't care if they just ignore gameplay innovation. You just really wanna see that agenda victory...

Do you hear yourself?

The Legend of Zelda has proven time and again to establish strong female leads. It is in no way a sexist title, and there are many women in the game who prove to be MUCH more powerful than Link could ever hope to be.

Here's the absolute bottom line that I'm trying to say-

It's a bad idea to change the main character of a franchise after more than 2 decades.

"Well actually it's not the same characte..."

Stop it. That's the least relevant idiosyncrasy ever.

Link has always been a young boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link.

There is NO reason to change it.

"Because it COULD be a girl one time and that would show how women..."

Stop it. Zelda isn't a fucking women's rights game. It's a badass story about a timeless elfin boy.

This one guy said it best...

"For every Zelda game we tell a new story, but we actually have an enormous document that explains how the game relates to the others, and bind them together. But to be honest, they are not that important to us. We care more about developing the game system."

-Shigeru Miyamoto

 

[EvilRoy]

It seems odd to me that people who aren't Zelda fans are expected to know the 'multi link theory', or indeed have an investment in it. People have pitched the same idea to me with regards to James Bond, but I can't help but not really care. I'm watching the movie to see an Englishman of varying age, temperament and hair colour kill people and fight megalomaniacs. Expecting me to worry how the films lead into one another is akin to expecting me to wonder about the true place of the baked snack I'm eating in the hierarchy of our social structure. When I play Zelda games, I'm playing to solve simple puzzles and experience acceptable combat, not to sweat the order or interactions between games.

Assuming then that I accept the multi-link theory, now you're asking me which particular sect of Hindu-Buddhist reincarnation I believe in. There are some that readily assert that a male remains male life to life, while others assert that cross-gender reincarnation is possible. Having said that, there are yet further groups that feel the best explanation for homosexual desires is that the soul itself has a gender regardless of, and if necessary in spite of, the body that it comes to inhabit incarnation to incarnation.

The statement that the incarnation of Link as female is inevitable implies to me that not only do cross-gender reincarnations occur in this universe, but they are mandatory (tossing aside those groups that feel an enlightened soul is capable of influencing their next existence) and follow statistical systems.

You're asking me to swallow a lot here, with little to back it up. As an average legend of zelda fan, if I turn on the next game and link is female with no explanation? I'm just going to assume I'm playing as zelda.

It's not a dubious unproven fan theory, Wind Waker explicitly spelled it out.

It also has nothing to do with inheritance or reincarnation either, they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS!

It said that the Link of Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks is not related at all by bloodline nor anything to the Link of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. And that many times before there has been a Link. It is also made clear in Wind Waker of the hyrule tradition of young adventures wearing the green tunic.

It's not reincarnation, it's not any person's soul in many different bodies.

You do understand how many people can adopt the same name... but be completely different people?

"not only do cross-gender reincarnations occur in this universe"

Look, Where the HELL did you get this reincarnation crap from?!?! Link in Wind Waker has NO KNOWLEDGE of the Link of Ocarina of time, nothing at all suggest any sort of reincarnation. Only the "Hero of Time Reborn" which is not to say it's the same person's soul, but that another completely different person has risen to earn the title.

"You're asking me to swallow a lot here"

No, you brought up the whole reincarnation crap and acting as if there was no explicit statement in the whole Zelda series that the different Links were different unrelated individuals who merely adopted the same role.

PS: James Bond is hardly unrelated, after Sean Connery every James Bond was a stand-alone narrative, so each film was a reset. Craig's Bond changed that for the first time since Sean Connery's Bond each film was a true sequel to the previous.

I was unaware that there was any explicit statement anywhere in the games that explained this, and in fact I still find it difficult to believe that myself and every player of these games is expected to know this. Or care.

The rest of my post could be attributed to my misuse of the word 'reincarnation' the more correct term that you yourself quoted is 'rebirth'. However, having read your post over I feel that you do not understand what either reincarnation or rebirth is. I suggest that you take some time to calm down and research these terms.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

It's not reincarnation, it's not any person's soul in many different bodies.

You do understand how many people can adopt the same name... but be completely different people?

"not only do cross-gender reincarnations occur in this universe"

Look, Where the HELL did you get this reincarnation crap from?!?! Link in Wind Waker has NO KNOWLEDGE of the Link of Ocarina of time, nothing at all suggest any sort of reincarnation. Only the "Hero of Time Reborn" which is not to say it's the same person's soul, but that another completely different person has risen to earn the title.

The term reincarnation doesn't imply carrying memories over... I don't know where you got that from.

Also, I have to ask your source for all of this "knowledge" about the Multi-Links. I know that personally, Miyamoto admitted there were multiple Links once. There is a slight mention of it in Wind Waker.

I was under the impression that Link was reborn as himself, and until you can find me legitimate proof otherwise, my THEORY is as valid as yours.

PS: James Bond is hardly unrelated, after Sean Connery every James Bond was a stand-alone narrative, so each film was a reset. Craig's Bond changed that for the first time since Sean Connery's Bond each film was a true sequel to the previous.

You're just so so wrong. Jesus Christ.

You do know that 007 was a book series, right?

Ian Fleming would be so pissed at you right now.

 

[GeneralFungi]

If this was done early on in the franchise I wouldn't have a problem with it. We would have grown up to associate with link in both genders, similar to how Shepard is accepted at both genders. But even though Link is a different person in each of the games, there are enough similarities between all of them that we can immediately identify any of them as 'Link'. It's been so long, Link is now characterized a certain way and is identifiable. To gender-link, while interesting, would be very hard for many to adjust to. She wouldn't be called link, she would be called 'She-Link' or something similar, where Shepard is simply 'Shepard' in the mass effect games regardless of gender. See where I'm going with this?

I do support the idea of a Zelda adventure where you actually play as the princess. That seems like a more effective way to involve both genders, and it wouldn't be as upsetting to the fan base (though there would still be pouting and whining to come from it, as we all know.) And it would lead the way to new innovations in a series that, while extremely good, needs to be shaken up a bit for interest now and then.

 

[SilentHillFreak]

In My opinion Link should not be a female. But I agree that they should make an attempt to make a Legend of Zelda game with Zelda as a main character. It would be a good game not only as a way to add new creative gameplay, buut it would also have an intersting plot which I believe would create some good, well deserves twists in the franchise that chould pull players more into the real world of the legend of zelda universe.

 

[Treblaine]

The rest of my post could be attributed to my misuse of the word 'reincarnation' the more correct term that you yourself quoted is 'rebirth'. However, having read your post over I feel that you do not understand what either reincarnation or rebirth is. I suggest that you take some time to calm down and research these terms.

No it's not.

Not if you mean the same personality or same individuality inside a different body. Because that is NOT THE CASE!

Wind Waker's only reference to "Hero Of Time is reborn" it makes very clear that it is not in the literal sense of "that guy from Ocarina of time has been reborn as this guy in Wind Waker" but that a new person has been born to earn the title "Hero of Time".

I understand it perfectly well. YOU do not understand what the Zelda games are actually about! There is no need to research the meaning of reincarnation, which I know, because reincarnation and rebirth are irrelevant. Certainly no barrier to a female link.

Link has always been a young boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link.

Did you have as much indignation over adult Link seen in Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword? That's not a young boy. That's a man.

That completely breaks from the formula of boy adventurer.

In fact Zelda games have done a LOT to vary on the basic formula. They still keep the iconography of fantasy setting and the hero in the green tunic, but nothing about that excludes a female protagonist.

It's a bad idea to change the main character of a franchise after more than 2 decades.

"Well actually it's not the same characte..."

Stop it. That's the least relevant idiosyncrasy ever.

Least relevant mannerism-of-one-individual?!?!? I don't think you mean that word. And it's very relevant as the characters have been so different, you can't chalk up up to varying artstyles, you can tell just from the way they act they have very different idiosyncrasys (see, that's a proper use of the term).

The term reincarnation doesn't imply carrying memories over... I don't know where you got that from.

Also, I have to ask your source for all of this "knowledge" about the Multi-Links. I know that personally, Miyamoto admitted there were multiple Links once. There is a slight mention of it in Wind Waker.

I was under the impression that Link was reborn as himself, and until you can find me legitimate proof otherwise, my THEORY is as valid as yours.

Reincarnation implies a lot.

There is more than a slight mention in Wind Waker. It spells it out.

You have no evidence for your assertion which doesn't even qualify for the level of theory.

It is spelled out explicitly that Link in Wind Waker is not at all related to the "Hero of Time" of Ocarina of Time.

If they are reborn "as himself" or reincarnated or whatever, why does the Link of Ocarina, Wind Waker then Twilight Princess have such contrasting mannerism? It's not like it's the same individuality in a different body, each is a completely different person. They have no common memory, no common personality, they just have a common general role and quest. That's nothing to exclude a female from such a role.

There is direct contrary evidence for your assertion of Link rebirth, by the revelation that Link of Wind Waker has no relation at all to the "Hero of Time" the Link of Ocarina of Time.

PS: James Bond is hardly unrelated, after Sean Connery every James Bond was a stand-alone narrative, so each film was a reset. Craig's Bond changed that for the first time since Sean Connery's Bond each film was a true sequel to the previous.

You're just so so wrong. Jesus Christ.

You do know that 007 was a book series, right?

Ian Fleming would be so pissed at you right now.

I DID say "after Sean Connery" as in "from Roger Moore onwards". Those films really did have little to nothing to do with the book series, only borrowing titles and phrases. Live and Let Die the book is so utterly different from the Roger Moore film.

 

[EvilRoy]

The rest of my post could be attributed to my misuse of the word 'reincarnation' the more correct term that you yourself quoted is 'rebirth'. However, having read your post over I feel that you do not understand what either reincarnation or rebirth is. I suggest that you take some time to calm down and research these terms.

No it's not.

Not if you mean the same personality or same individuality inside a different body. Because that is NOT THE CASE!

Wind Waker's only reference to "Hero Of Time is reborn" it makes very clear that it is not in the literal sense of "that guy from Ocarina of time has been reborn as this guy in Wind Waker" but that a new person has been born to earn the title "Hero of Time".

I understand it perfectly well. YOU do not understand what the Zelda games are actually about! There is no need to research the meaning of reincarnation, which I know, because reincarnation and rebirth are irrelevant. Certainly no barrier to a female link.

No whats not?

Also, once again, not really demonstrating you have a good grasp of what the term reborn or rebirth mean. This is of particular importance since Nintendo is a Japanese company where buddhism is kind of a big deal, in particular the term "blank is reborn" would not mean the same here as it would there. You seem to consider it in the same terms as "the king is dead, long live the king" which, based on culture, would be false.

Accusing me of not knowing what the zelda games are about is basically an admission that you have no argument beyond your own interpretation of a media series. This is not adequate for me to accept your assertions that a female link is somehow inevitable, just as it is not adequate for me to accept immediately after booting a zelda game with a female lead that I am not just playing as zelda.

 

[JimB]

I am clarifying for you that it has nothing to do with changing from man to woman and more to do with the "change" in general. Make sense?

I didn't edit my post until at least fifteen minutes after I made it (I don't know how long because who checks that?), so I'll assume you're arguing in good faith here and let this one slide.

Oh...um...hey, what the fuck are you talking about?

I am comparing your justification of "This is how we do it, and the fact that we do it this way is sufficient reason to not have to analyze why we do it or open ourselves to the possibility of change" to the first example of the same thing I was reminded of in order to illustrate how contemptible I find it. I often speak in metaphor. It's a bad habit of mine.

But the idea of Link WAS developed around this idea of this elfin boy and that's why he works so well as an elfin boy. To change that would change A LOT of the main themes of the series.

Which themes? Which parts of a Legend of Zelda game are penis-dependent?

Okay, so you're just straight up admitting it. The only part of the game you'd care about is that a female protagonist would usurp a male protagonist.

"Usurp?" Seriously? And you're accusing me of melodrama? You're treating the idea of a female Link as a crime against male Link, robbing him of his rightful place?

You don't care how it affects the plot.

No, I don't, because I am incapable of imagining a situation in which "Link has boobs" matters to the plot without getting pathetically juvenile about it.

You don't care if they just ignore game play innovation.

Oh, I dare you to point out where I even implied that I want developers to ignore game play.

The Legend of Zelda has proven time and again to establish strong female leads.

How do you define the word "lead" such that it applies to an NPC in a video game?

It is in no way a sexist title[...]

Uh, I don't remember saying it is, but thanks for reassuring me of that fear I never mentioned, I guess.

[...]and there are many women in the game who prove to be MUCH more powerful than Link could ever hope to be.

What do relative power levels (not that I'm even sure how you measure power in this instance) have to do with anything?

Link has always been a young boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link.

What you have described is not a character. It's a demographic, a wardrobe, and a skill.

It's possible we're disagreeing so much because you and I have such disparate definitions of the word "character" that we haven't been talking about the same thing this entire time.

Zelda isn't a fucking women's rights game.

I'm not asking for it to be. I'm saying I would enjoy a game with a female Link.

Let's be clear, here: I am not crusading for women's rights. If I was worried about that, I'd be arguing about clitoridectomies, or Afghani girls getting shot in the head for wanting to go to school like boys, or that woman who got gang-raped to death on a public bus in India, or Chinese infants being drowned for the crime of being born with a vagina. My head is not quite so far up my ass that I think putting Link in a skirt instead of a tunic is going to notably improve anything in the world. I just want a video game where a woman takes charge of her own life instead of waiting for the male protagonist to come fix it. I want a piece of escapist entertainment that will make me happy for as long as it takes to play it.

 

[Yeager942]

"Should" Link be a girl? No.

Would I like to see it? Yes.

 

[Areloch]

Just stepping in here, but doesn't Skyward Sword confirm that all 3 of the main characters of the whole series(Link, Zelda, and Ganon(dorf)) are all basically reincarnations due to Demise's curse? So Ganon is Demise's hatred. Always the same guy. Zelda has to be descended from the Goddess' bloodline, and Link has to be someone with the spirit of the hero who defeated him. So Link would be a re-incarnation of that spirit.
This explicitly rules out Link possibly being 'anyone with the courage to step up and save the people/fight evil'.
That said, it doesn't invalidate the possibility of Link being female, but Link, by virtue of the canon/story, cannot just be some random schmuck.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

Link has always been a young boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link.

Did you have as much indignation over adult Link seen in Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword? That's not a young boy. That's a man.

Dude he's 16 in OoT.

16 is a boy.

And if you'd rather, then I can amend it to "Link has always been a ~9-19 year old boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link."

Way to just prove absolutely nothing by making another ridiculous straw man though!

(I just want to put this in here, if you are trolling, you are doing a SPECTACULAR job. I honestly believe that you think you just made a point there, but if you're fucking with me then you really are doing a great job.)

It's a bad idea to change the main character of a franchise after more than 2 decades.

"Well actually it's not the same characte..."

Stop it. That's the least relevant idiosyncrasy ever.

Least relevant mannerism-of-one-individual?!?!? I don't think you mean that word. And it's very relevant as the characters have been so different, you can't chalk up up to varying artstyles, you can tell just from the way they act they have very different idiosyncrasys (see, that's a proper use of the term).

I don't know what idiosyncrasys are, but idiosyncraSIES are structural or behavioral characteristics peculiar to one individual or group, so my definition still holds water.

Way to just prove absolutely nothing by making another ridiculous straw man though!

Also, let me reiterate something.

"Link has always been a ~9-19 year old boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link."

Those are the staples of the character.

Everything else is up for grabs.

The term reincarnation doesn't imply carrying memories over... I don't know where you got that from.

Also, I have to ask your source for all of this "knowledge" about the Multi-Links. I know that personally, Miyamoto admitted there were multiple Links once. There is a slight mention of it in Wind Waker.

I was under the impression that Link was reborn as himself, and until you can find me legitimate proof otherwise, my THEORY is as valid as yours.

Reincarnation implies a lot.

No. Reincarnation means rebirth of soul/essence. In no major religion is past life memory generally accepted.

There is more than a slight mention in Wind Waker. It spells it out.

No... it doesn't. It just implies that the hero is the same entity.

You have no evidence for your assertion which doesn't even qualify for the level of theory.

Ah, theory qualification... true. Theories require sufficient proof so I guess it's just a hypothesis.

Way to just prove absolutely nothing by making another ridiculous straw man though!

Oh btw, where's the proof of your HYPOTHESIS?

Pretty conveniently forgot that part didn't you?

It is spelled out explicitly that Link in Wind Waker is not at all related to the "Hero of Time" of Ocarina of Time.

If they are reborn "as himself" or reincarnated or whatever, why does the Link of Ocarina, Wind Waker then Twilight Princess have such contrasting mannerism? It's not like it's the same individuality in a different body, each is a completely different person. They have no common memory, no common personality, they just have a common general role and quest. That's nothing to exclude a female from such a role.

There is direct contrary evidence for your assertion of Link rebirth, by the revelation that Link of Wind Waker has no relation at all to the "Hero of Time" the Link of Ocarina of Time.

You seem to not understand anything at all about reincarnation so let me explain it from a Buddhist perspective.

Buddhists believe that when you die, you are reborn into another living being. You don't remember anything and are in no way similar, but you are the same entity.

More liberal uses of the word usually show up in fiction where anything can be transferred. The Legend of Zelda is one such work of fiction.

I believe I actually know of a specific Miyamoto quote where he specifically says Link is "reborn", but it could just be lost in translation. If I can find it though, its more evidence than your hypothesis has.

Although to be honest, what you are referring to is actually just a type of reincarnation. See, an incarnation can be a deity figure and it can be REincarnated into multiple different bodies.

 

[Devil_Worshipper]

Skyward Sword is iffy for me. I thought the rules were that just every incarnation of Link, Zelda, and Ganon were the avatars of the three Goddesses in the mortal plane. Zelda is always born into royalty, but Link tends to come from a different background each time. Ganon stays the same because he's the same Ganon whose resurrects himself each time he's defeated.

Honestly tho, making Zelda the pov character would accomplish the same end. Seeing as every incarnation has been consistent as far as gender. See no reason to change that at the drop of a hat. If we want to stay consistent to the setup and progress the mythology that's already been established. Just change the pov. IMO if you were going to end the series you'd have to make Ganon the pov character.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

Oh...um...hey, what the fuck are you talking about?

I am comparing your justification of "This is how we do it, and the fact that we do it this way is sufficient reason to not have to analyze why we do it or open ourselves to the possibility of change" to the first example of the same thing I was reminded of in order to illustrate how contemptible I find it. I often speak in metaphor. It's a bad habit of mine.

I never said anything like that. At all.

Go back and re-read my post. I swear to god, you just look at a select few words of posts and freak out about shit.

All I said in a nutshell was that the writing department would be better off not pandering and sticking to what it does well. You blew it way out of context and started babbling about the Dark Ages.

But the idea of Link WAS developed around this idea of this elfin boy and that's why he works so well as an elfin boy. To change that would change A LOT of the main themes of the series.

Which themes? Which parts of a Legend of Zelda game are penis-dependent?

So, in adult terms, you want to know which themes are dependent on using a variation of the same male protagonist?

Okay, there's the knight in shining armor/damsel in distress theme and there's the constant aesthetic consistency of the main character.

Then there are themes that rely heavily on it.

There's the bounce around from beta male to alpha male (and sometimes gamma male) in the different games in the series (WW, OoT (Adult), and TP respectively). This even happens within some of the games... mainly OoT.

I could keep going, but mainly, it is a matter of theme and aesthetic.

Okay, so you're just straight up admitting it. The only part of the game you'd care about is that a female protagonist would usurp a male protagonist.

"Usurp?" Seriously? And you're accusing me of melodrama? You're treating the idea of a female Link as a crime against male Link, robbing him of his rightful place?

I used a funny word... nice straw man bro! Way to stay on topic!

You don't care how it affects the plot.

No, I don't, because I am incapable of imagining a situation in which "Link has boobs" matters to the plot without getting pathetically juvenile about it.

That's probably because you seem to have the worst sense of storytelling concepts of anyone I've ever met.

The Legend of Zelda has proven time and again to establish strong female leads.

How do you define the word "lead" such that it applies to an NPC in a video game?

In works of fiction, lead is loosely used to refer to the characters who are highlighted the most.

Examples of female leads in Zelda games:

Zelda
Saria
Midna
etc.

The more you know!*

Link has always been a young boy with a green tunic, a cap, long ears, and some mean swordfighting skills. To change ANY of that is changing the character of Link.

What you have described is not a character. It's a demographic, a wardrobe, and a skill.

It's not a demographic if you aren't referring to marketing, but I know what you mean.

The thing is that being a male in a green tunic, and cap, with a sword is what makes Link who he is.

It's possible we're disagreeing so much because you and I have such disparate definitions of the word "character" that we haven't been talking about the same thing this entire time.

Semantics always come into play with this stuff, but I don't think it matters. Those traits I listed define who Link is whether you mean each character or his character in general.

Zelda isn't a fucking women's rights game.

I'm not asking for it to be. I'm saying I would enjoy a game with a female Link.

Let's be clear, here: I am not crusading for women's rights. If I was worried about that, I'd be arguing about clitoridectomies, or Afghani girls getting shot in the head for wanting to go to school like boys, or that woman who got gang-raped to death on a public bus in India, or Chinese infants being drowned for the crime of being born with a vagina. My head is not quite so far up my ass that I think putting Link in a skirt instead of a tunic is going to notably improve anything in the world. I just want a video game where a woman takes charge of her own life instead of waiting for the male protagonist to come fix it. I want a piece of escapist entertainment that will make me happy for as long as it takes to play it.

I can see that.

Those games exist too.

Hell, it sounds like what you want is a game where you can play as Zelda.

You're just being greedy though. You want to take a stable franchise and convert the main character into a strong female lead because you think it will be less likely to fail, but it's the exact opposite. You won't get your strong female and after ~25+ years of the same main character, I'll be forced to change the way I think of him (I really don't want to do that... I like Link a LOT as a character).

Good strong female leads don't have to be converted from good strong male leads.