Poll: Should The Elder Scrolls go back to using a text-based dialogue system like Morrowind's?
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This is why most RPG's have gone to shit, Planescape is clearly the better of the two games there. Less Voice acting and more story IMO. Don't get rid of it completely, but, reduce it in favor of deeper plot lines and more content. Hopefully as the industry shifts more towards a digital distribution model the "ok epic game needs to fit on 1-2 discs max" mentality will go away. I'd be ok with 4-5-6 disc games AND pay MORE for them if they would flesh the story out more.Anthraxus said:Imagine an RPG like Planescape being fully voice acted ? It would never happen,
Oh and this
HerbertTheHamster said:
No. Hell no.
You can't turn back the clock, or stop advancements. Technology goes forward, not back.
Besides which, I don't particularly like the text-based dialogue. I might be in a minority here, but I feel that voiced dialogue gives the NPCs more personality and identity, rather than a text-based system which turns them into glorified menus.
You can't turn back the clock, or stop advancements. Technology goes forward, not back.
Besides which, I don't particularly like the text-based dialogue. I might be in a minority here, but I feel that voiced dialogue gives the NPCs more personality and identity, rather than a text-based system which turns them into glorified menus.
Both had pros and cons. Skyrim probably wouldn't be the same game, but it might be better. Morrowind didn't suffer at all. What does piss me off is a game like DA2, where everything is linear and limited--so much so, in fact, that you notice very easily that your "dialogue choices" have no impact on how things unfold. Regardless of what you say you're going to do, the same things happen, just with you on a different side. That seems like the ultimate oversimplification of Skyrim's system, that system taken to its poorest conclusion. In that way, Skyrim is a nice middleground for developers: not too dumb, but also easily accessed for those who dont want to read your lines of text.
Oh. I thought of something. What if Developers just wrote a whole bunch of dialogue (in the "classic" sense), and then put in voice actors. For everyone, or maybe just important people. Then, everyone would get what they want: people who read and don't care for voice acting can just pick their next dialogue choice, people who prefer voice actors can lean back and listen.
Absolutely, I thought Morrowind's dialogue system was great: Give the NPC's one or two voiced lines, and then let us infer what the actual dialogue sounds like from there. Not only did voicing all of the dialogue not help "immersion" (this is becoming more and more of a useless buzzword) in any sense whatsoever, but the quality and quantity of dialogue plummeted in direct proportion to how much voice work was done. Pro-tip: characters can derive just as much of their personality from word choice as well as inflection.
I don't mind reading when the writing is good, but writing is one of Bethesda's biggest weaknesses.Anthraxus said:
Though the dialogue in Skyrim does get in my nerves when its regurgitated so much. Is it weird that that is what I hate about the game most? I feel like a person on the verge of a murderous psychotic breakdown whenever I go into a city. I cautiously walk around and try to avoid coming too close to a person, lest they ask me to brew them an ale again. And when I do get too close and they inevitable tell me something they've told me 100 times already, I will snap and put an arrow through everyone's eye. Then I'll pour void salts on the wound.
The problem with that is how there are still people that have Standard definition my copy of Skyrim is stuck on wide screen. If not for the voice dialogue I would have to buy the guide.
The dialogue and journaling system used in Morrowind was excellent. The TES construction kit was really powerful. A writer could easily pump out hundreds of dialogue and journal entries for a huge variety of topics. Then, by assigning these dialogue options traits, and their NPCs corresponding traits, a navigable dialogue system that allowed the player to interact with ANY NPC to learn about the game world and the characters themselves.
I used to be able to talk to bandits, shopkeepers, guards, peasants, travelers, soldiers, and even daedra and creatures if they were calmed. They would tell me about the region, the weather, current events, their trade, their background, and nearly anything else that I wanted to know. Its not that hard to write a basic script, and the writers for Morrowind were talented and had a great premise and universe to work in. On top of that they had a versatile and time saving toolset to work with. Text is powerful, and on top of that, we read much faster than we listen. We often skip the shitty dialogue, instead choosing to read the subtitles. And we never got bombarded with multiple conversations in Morrwind in the middle of a dragon fight.
Now because children don't like to read anymore, and game developers have a hazy notion that "cinematic" is the way to go, we have spoken dialogue. I like voice acting, it can be done very well, just take a look at Seth Green's work in Mass Effect. But the voice acting and animations in the elder scrolls just don't cut it. They're wooden, stereotypical, and overall they seem to cheapen the experience where my imagination used to enrich it. That's the true shame, that Bethesda took something that was great, and replaced it with something that could have been great in a different game. But in such an open world, the crummy dialogue betrays the fake nature of the world. That is the true break in immersion.
Companies, especially game developers seem very hesitant to invest any effort or resources into any long range endeavor. Valve created the source engine, a versatile, scalable, and hefty toolset that has served them well over the last several years. They hardly need to lip synch anymore because they did that work at the beginning of HL:2. I hope that someday in the future, a company will produce a good text to speech program suitable for this. Game developers won't have to spend so much time and money on mundane tasks, and will be able to focus their creativity elsewhere. Someday talented writers will work in video games again, and the program will be able to turn their genius into a more digestible form of storytelling to those who read at a grade school level.
I used to be able to talk to bandits, shopkeepers, guards, peasants, travelers, soldiers, and even daedra and creatures if they were calmed. They would tell me about the region, the weather, current events, their trade, their background, and nearly anything else that I wanted to know. Its not that hard to write a basic script, and the writers for Morrowind were talented and had a great premise and universe to work in. On top of that they had a versatile and time saving toolset to work with. Text is powerful, and on top of that, we read much faster than we listen. We often skip the shitty dialogue, instead choosing to read the subtitles. And we never got bombarded with multiple conversations in Morrwind in the middle of a dragon fight.
Now because children don't like to read anymore, and game developers have a hazy notion that "cinematic" is the way to go, we have spoken dialogue. I like voice acting, it can be done very well, just take a look at Seth Green's work in Mass Effect. But the voice acting and animations in the elder scrolls just don't cut it. They're wooden, stereotypical, and overall they seem to cheapen the experience where my imagination used to enrich it. That's the true shame, that Bethesda took something that was great, and replaced it with something that could have been great in a different game. But in such an open world, the crummy dialogue betrays the fake nature of the world. That is the true break in immersion.
Companies, especially game developers seem very hesitant to invest any effort or resources into any long range endeavor. Valve created the source engine, a versatile, scalable, and hefty toolset that has served them well over the last several years. They hardly need to lip synch anymore because they did that work at the beginning of HL:2. I hope that someday in the future, a company will produce a good text to speech program suitable for this. Game developers won't have to spend so much time and money on mundane tasks, and will be able to focus their creativity elsewhere. Someday talented writers will work in video games again, and the program will be able to turn their genius into a more digestible form of storytelling to those who read at a grade school level.
Well I say do both, do voice acting for all the important bits and text only for the long winded life stories they oh so love to share, and cut the budget on towns folk blabing random shit at you because we really don't want to hear it.
You really can't go text only on a triple A title in this day and age (unless you are called Nintendo), but there is nothing wrong with adding a little extra for those that really care.
You really can't go text only on a triple A title in this day and age (unless you are called Nintendo), but there is nothing wrong with adding a little extra for those that really care.
I don't like it when the game dumps a wall of text on me for every conversation. I would gladly cut back graphics for more dialog, but I would like it to be voiced acted and well done.
Not every game needs 100 choices for you to choose from, I just want it to be well done.
I think the biggest issue is how games are trying to shove your entire response into good, neutral, and evil all while only giving you three words to hint at what your character are going to say.
We should have all rpg makers play Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines before we let them make dialog choices. YES I AM A MASSIVE FANBOY.
Carry on.
Not every game needs 100 choices for you to choose from, I just want it to be well done.
I think the biggest issue is how games are trying to shove your entire response into good, neutral, and evil all while only giving you three words to hint at what your character are going to say.
We should have all rpg makers play Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines before we let them make dialog choices. YES I AM A MASSIVE FANBOY.
Carry on.
While the Morrowind system gave more options I doubt developers would actually explore those options. If I remember correctly, Morrowind DID have more options with characters... all of them just as pointless as the ones in Skyrim. One benefit to Morrowind, though, is that you didn't have to worry about the NPC having ONE line that they'd repeat every ten seconds and when you clicked on them. Overall, I'd say its a mix, but given that I think that the text based system would detract from Skyrim's feel, I'll say no.
I wonder..........This brings up an interesting point.
For Morrowind I got incredibly drawn into the story, but since there was stuff I couldn't understand (I was young at the time, in middle school) I took the effort to learn more about the lore online.
Oblivion's voice acting made it more engaging, but I have no fond memories of the story like I do for Morrowind. I had no complaints about the voice acting, but it didn't add anything to the game other than the aforementioned "engaging experience."
Skyrim sort of bridged the two. I'm very much into the story of Skyrim (well not the main questline, but the setting and the circumstances of the rebellion). And while I would still love it without the voice acting, then voices really do add to the experience.
Guards comment on your armor, if you're sick, sometimes changing what they say depending on the time of day (this only happened once so I don't know if it's a big thing). Hell, at one point I took off all my clothes and got some comments: "whatever you do at home is your own business." You could of course replicate it with text, but the voices do add something even though I can't be sure what.
For Morrowind I got incredibly drawn into the story, but since there was stuff I couldn't understand (I was young at the time, in middle school) I took the effort to learn more about the lore online.
Oblivion's voice acting made it more engaging, but I have no fond memories of the story like I do for Morrowind. I had no complaints about the voice acting, but it didn't add anything to the game other than the aforementioned "engaging experience."
Skyrim sort of bridged the two. I'm very much into the story of Skyrim (well not the main questline, but the setting and the circumstances of the rebellion). And while I would still love it without the voice acting, then voices really do add to the experience.
Guards comment on your armor, if you're sick, sometimes changing what they say depending on the time of day (this only happened once so I don't know if it's a big thing). Hell, at one point I took off all my clothes and got some comments: "whatever you do at home is your own business." You could of course replicate it with text, but the voices do add something even though I can't be sure what.
Not sure Nintendo really applies in this whole debate. Their games don't really have stories (though the Metroid Prime series had quite a few details.)Mr.K. said:
I was thinking Skyward Sword, closest thing to triple A RPG with lots of text and not a single word of it spoken.Lovely Mixture said:
Part of characterization is in a character's voice, their tone, pitch, rate even. Robbing characters of their voice hinders their presence as an element of the story. What if the infamous "Would you kindly?" scene from Bioshock were naught but text? No one would be talking about that scene anymore.