Poll: Should Writer/Creators feel shame for Sexualization?

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Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Spartan448 said:
Honestly... why does anyone care? The one logical fallacy all of these people seem to make is that all male game characters are somehow supposed to represent males in general, and that all female characters are supposed to represent females in general. No, no they're not. One person is one person and is going to be radically different from the next person. If a dev decides to make a character design sexualized, okay, go right ahead and do that - it is the storywriter creating the character and the character is going to have whatever traits the storywriter decides to put in. And of one of those traits is that the character doesn't mind showing a little (or a lot) of skin, you can't criticize the developer for that - people are like that, and just because it offends you personally doesn't mean it's an abomination that needs to be destroyed. Honestly, the only time it's unacceptable is when the character's personality is just so counter to that kind of appearance that the only conceivable reason for the character dressing like that is because fanservice. On the other hand, if you are in a situation where you want to dress a character like a fanservice character even though their personality is counter to that, there are a few things you can do to make that work. For example, the character may be being forced to by another character (in which case bonus points if you make this a source of tension between two characters). Or you could go the psychology route and have it be a conscious/subconscious type of thing, where outwardly the character is very uncomfortable with what they're wearing, but internally they rather like dressing like that.

Honestly, the only reason this is a problem is because of the way religion has influenced and developed the West's sense of morality. You don't hear controversies like this over in Japan because they just don't care, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that A) They realize that banning something or making it taboo will only make people want it more, and B) The fact that most Japanese people grow up around a mixture of religions rather than one central one like in the West means that some things from each part are lost or changed. Sexuality is simply another part of the self in Japanese culture, wheras in the West, showing your ankles condemns you to an eternity engulfed in fire and brimstone. As a result, we Westerners tend to fear sexuality much more than anywhere else, especially in the US (again, primarily because of the religion issue).

Having a sexualized character doesn't make you a sexist. It just means you have a sexualized character.
Well, the argument being made by feminists like Anita Sarkeesian and her defenders is that idealized women appeal to men, and that idealized men are also a male empowerment fantasy. Basically the ripped Chippendale guy doesn't count because somehow despite all of the money spent on things like the actual Chippendales and man-porn directed at women that women don't find that appealing and thus it doesn't draw them in the same way. Likewise we're supposed to accept that women for whatever reason don't dream about, or find attraction in, a physical ideal of their own gender. Basically that supposedly all women want portrayals that match the average everywhere since they are all grounded entirely in reality.... in short it's complete BS and basically used to try and sell arguments intended to get attention. At the end of the day women creating fantasy create the same kinds of ideal protagonists that you see in video games and the like, and the hyper-sexy action girl has the same kind of appeal as the studdly action dude. Basically members of the same gender want to be them, members of the opposite gender want to be with them.

As a general rule one thing you'll notice is that those who complain about the objectification of women tend to be women who are unattractive, or guys who are lonely or have an unattractive girl in their life (whatever they might say to them). Exceptions of course exist, and the majority of people of normal or below average looks generally don't care either (and in part are content with the escapism present in fantasy). Basically the rank and file of the movements against fantasy art and the like are a bunch of very bitter, angry, people who feel they have been cheated in life by not having won the genetic lottery. Sometime take a careful look at the people your argueing with, and when your dealing with the exceptions that exist what kinds of gains they get from the position. For example Anita Sarkeesian herself isn't exactly ugly, but she's also someone who is riding a platform to fame and notoriety, and generally doesn't engage on her own behalf.

You go to cons and stuff, or just browse the internet, and you'll see pictures of tons of cute girls dressing up as a lot of these fantasy characters and such, and having fun doing it. You'll see not-so cute ones doing it for fun as well of course. Obviously women do not hate these characters or feel objectified, nobody is exactly pointing guns at them and say "yeeeesss, dress up like Harley Quinn and put videos of yourself doing sexy poses on the interwebs....", while one can point to the whole "fake geek girl" thing (which is another entire issue) I very much doubt groups like "Team Unicorn" have some pimp in the background directing them with a baseball bat during their videos. I also doubt Ubisoft had to resort to human trafficking to recruit The Frag Dolls.

Basically there is no issue, there is just a lot of bitter people who want to make an issue, and those who realize they can exploit those bitter people to their own ends.

When it comes to Japan it's a mixture of things, as I've said before Japan is largely a mirror of American culture minus the PC crap we let taint everything here, especially nowadays. A few years ago though you could say it was more overtly barbaric still, but as a general rule it's started to change itself to be more intentionally acceptable, hence why it can be argued by some that "Anime" is technically dead because the sort of borked mentality that created it is gone, or at least not allowed to express itself to the same extent it used to be. Basically where something like "Rapelay" used to be par for the course, it's become a bit more underground even there than it is now. Japan is a bit more open with porn, but at the same time the US isn't exactly lacking in it either. I mean if you have the money and desire you can get some dude to back a whole UPS truck full of porn up to your house if you want to. What's more driving cross country I noticed a surprising number of adult stores which actually got me to do some checking. Ironically it seems the coasts (east and west) with a huge PC-liberal community seem to be more prudish with such things (going by numbers which probably indicates consumption) the more conservative states who make moral arguments but are against this kind of legislation and forcing social agendas with the law seem to have more of them. I'm not a big porn consumer though so it's not like my research has been exhaustive. The point being that while Japan might have more sexual merchandise out in the open, I don't think there is that big a difference, especially seeing as your talking a multi-billion dollar industry in the US alone.

Interestingly I think one of the things with Japan is that on a lot of levels World War II hit a reset button for it, and gave it a chance to try and redefine what it wanted to be, which has been embraced with mixed degrees of enthusiasm. When it comes to gender politics in the relatively civilized world I think the big countries to actually keep an eye on are Russia, China, and India. While those countries have paid lip service to civilizing, your dealing with deeply engrained cultures with set gender roles that go back thousands of years (compared to how the US say set it's basic policies that lead to gender equality not even 300 years ago), as a result they play the whole "progressive society" card but in practice tend to wind up with very unfriendly environments where women are still expected to largely complement men, and having a woman is a sort of entitlement for a guy and a privilege for her. Hence why you still see a lot of human trafficking problems in those countries, shocking caste revelations (like how the servant of an Indian ambassador was being treated), and can even find girls willing to marry dudes they never met complete with a pre-nuptial even just to get out of the country (mail order bride modern equivalent). Those are the nations to watch, the Middle East is technically worse, but it doesn't even make pretensions of being progressive for the most part so it's on the table a lot more. Of course this has little to do with anything.
 

mecegirl

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GloatingSwine said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
I guess I disagree, about fighting have an egregiousness amount of lack in diversity of female characters, than games taken in as a whole.
The reason it tends to stand out in fighting games is that they tend to have quite large casts. Since you see all the examples in one place it stands out more that there's way greater variety on one side of the gender fence.
This is by no means proof, but I really am trying to think of a female fighting game chracter that isn't young and/or conventionally attractive. The most I can think of is Panda from Tekken. Characters like Sheva and Mileenia from Mortal Kombat sorta count because of their faces, but nothing stopped developers from giving them supermodel bodies. So while its a bit off topic,now I'm curious.

Just off the top of my head, and I'm not a fighting game expert, these are the games I can think of.
Street Fighter
Mortal Combat
Rival Schools
Tekken
Dead or Alive
King of Fighters
Soul Caliber
BlazBlue
Darkstalkers
Guilty Gear

And even with games like Darkstalkers, where everyone isn't human, its hard for me to think of many distinctly unattractive female fighting characters. A little weird looking but nothing to extreme.
 

deathbydeath

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Daniel Janhagen said:
(I mean, what am I paying for?)
I don't know, a good story/music/special effects/humor/a chance to be scared/a good time with friends/an opportunity to learn something/to reinforce a certain image of youself to others? If your only reason to spend money on a work of art is for titillation than I highly suggest you go home and re-evaluate your life. That can't be healthy.
Daniel Janhagen said:
Fanservice is always a good thing.
I would argue that fanservice only works if it doesn't clash tone of the work. For something like the Sisters of Battle from Warhammer 40k, panty shots would feel out of place and undermine the tone everything else is trying to build.

That being said sexualization can add interesting layers to a character's design, and create dissonance or reinforce themes.
 

Daniel Janhagen

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deathbydeath said:
Daniel Janhagen said:
(I mean, what am I paying for?)
I don't know, a good story/music/special effects/humor/a chance to be scared/a good time with friends/an opportunity to learn something/to reinforce a certain image of youself to others? If your only reason to spend money on a work of art is for titillation than I highly suggest you go home and re-evaluate your life. That can't be healthy.
Daniel Janhagen said:
Fanservice is always a good thing.
I would argue that fanservice only works if it doesn't clash tone of the work. For something like the Sisters of Battle from Warhammer 40k, panty shots would feel out of place and undermine the tone everything else is trying to build.
Sisters of Battle are already very much fanservice, as is most of Warhammer. Not very sexually oriented though.

A good story/music/special effects/humor are all examples of a great ways to service me. (A good time with friends is mostly my own doing (and my friends' obviously!)). If we get sexual fanservice on top of that, then that's just even better.
 

fenrizz

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While I respect and encourage an artists freedom of expression, I also feel that if a society decides to shame some expression and consider them taboo then that is probably the natural response to that expression.

Should it be illegal? Hell no.
But not all expressions are created equal.
If people consider your creation an abomination then they will probably tell you so.
If society is wrong then history has showed us that others will probably join you and expand the borders of what is acceptable.
 

fenrizz

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Therumancer said:
Spartan448 said:
Honestly... why does anyone care? The one logical fallacy all of these people seem to make is that all male game characters are somehow supposed to represent males in general, and that all female characters are supposed to represent females in general. No, no they're not. One person is one person and is going to be radically different from the next person. If a dev decides to make a character design sexualized, okay, go right ahead and do that - it is the storywriter creating the character and the character is going to have whatever traits the storywriter decides to put in. And of one of those traits is that the character doesn't mind showing a little (or a lot) of skin, you can't criticize the developer for that - people are like that, and just because it offends you personally doesn't mean it's an abomination that needs to be destroyed. Honestly, the only time it's unacceptable is when the character's personality is just so counter to that kind of appearance that the only conceivable reason for the character dressing like that is because fanservice. On the other hand, if you are in a situation where you want to dress a character like a fanservice character even though their personality is counter to that, there are a few things you can do to make that work. For example, the character may be being forced to by another character (in which case bonus points if you make this a source of tension between two characters). Or you could go the psychology route and have it be a conscious/subconscious type of thing, where outwardly the character is very uncomfortable with what they're wearing, but internally they rather like dressing like that.

Honestly, the only reason this is a problem is because of the way religion has influenced and developed the West's sense of morality. You don't hear controversies like this over in Japan because they just don't care, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that A) They realize that banning something or making it taboo will only make people want it more, and B) The fact that most Japanese people grow up around a mixture of religions rather than one central one like in the West means that some things from each part are lost or changed. Sexuality is simply another part of the self in Japanese culture, wheras in the West, showing your ankles condemns you to an eternity engulfed in fire and brimstone. As a result, we Westerners tend to fear sexuality much more than anywhere else, especially in the US (again, primarily because of the religion issue).

Having a sexualized character doesn't make you a sexist. It just means you have a sexualized character.
Well, the argument being made by feminists like Anita Sarkeesian and her defenders is that idealized women appeal to men, and that idealized men are also a male empowerment fantasy. Basically the ripped Chippendale guy doesn't count because somehow despite all of the money spent on things like the actual Chippendales and man-porn directed at women that women don't find that appealing and thus it doesn't draw them in the same way. Likewise we're supposed to accept that women for whatever reason don't dream about, or find attraction in, a physical ideal of their own gender. Basically that supposedly all women want portrayals that match the average everywhere since they are all grounded entirely in reality.... in short it's complete BS and basically used to try and sell arguments intended to get attention. At the end of the day women creating fantasy create the same kinds of ideal protagonists that you see in video games and the like, and the hyper-sexy action girl has the same kind of appeal as the studdly action dude. Basically members of the same gender want to be them, members of the opposite gender want to be with them.

As a general rule one thing you'll notice is that those who complain about the objectification of women tend to be women who are unattractive, or guys who are lonely or have an unattractive girl in their life (whatever they might say to them). Exceptions of course exist, and the majority of people of normal or below average looks generally don't care either (and in part are content with the escapism present in fantasy). Basically the rank and file of the movements against fantasy art and the like are a bunch of very bitter, angry, people who feel they have been cheated in life by not having won the genetic lottery. Sometime take a careful look at the people your argueing with, and when your dealing with the exceptions that exist what kinds of gains they get from the position. For example Anita Sarkeesian herself isn't exactly ugly, but she's also someone who is riding a platform to fame and notoriety, and generally doesn't engage on her own behalf.

You go to cons and stuff, or just browse the internet, and you'll see pictures of tons of cute girls dressing up as a lot of these fantasy characters and such, and having fun doing it. You'll see not-so cute ones doing it for fun as well of course. Obviously women do not hate these characters or feel objectified, nobody is exactly pointing guns at them and say "yeeeesss, dress up like Harley Quinn and put videos of yourself doing sexy poses on the interwebs....", while one can point to the whole "fake geek girl" thing (which is another entire issue) I very much doubt groups like "Team Unicorn" have some pimp in the background directing them with a baseball bat during their videos. I also doubt Ubisoft had to resort to human trafficking to recruit The Frag Dolls.

Basically there is no issue, there is just a lot of bitter people who want to make an issue, and those who realize they can exploit those bitter people to their own ends.

When it comes to Japan it's a mixture of things, as I've said before Japan is largely a mirror of American culture minus the PC crap we let taint everything here, especially nowadays. A few years ago though you could say it was more overtly barbaric still, but as a general rule it's started to change itself to be more intentionally acceptable, hence why it can be argued by some that "Anime" is technically dead because the sort of borked mentality that created it is gone, or at least not allowed to express itself to the same extent it used to be. Basically where something like "Rapelay" used to be par for the course, it's become a bit more underground even there than it is now. Japan is a bit more open with porn, but at the same time the US isn't exactly lacking in it either. I mean if you have the money and desire you can get some dude to back a whole UPS truck full of porn up to your house if you want to. What's more driving cross country I noticed a surprising number of adult stores which actually got me to do some checking. Ironically it seems the coasts (east and west) with a huge PC-liberal community seem to be more prudish with such things (going by numbers which probably indicates consumption) the more conservative states who make moral arguments but are against this kind of legislation and forcing social agendas with the law seem to have more of them. I'm not a big porn consumer though so it's not like my research has been exhaustive. The point being that while Japan might have more sexual merchandise out in the open, I don't think there is that big a difference, especially seeing as your talking a multi-billion dollar industry in the US alone.

Interestingly I think one of the things with Japan is that on a lot of levels World War II hit a reset button for it, and gave it a chance to try and redefine what it wanted to be, which has been embraced with mixed degrees of enthusiasm. When it comes to gender politics in the relatively civilized world I think the big countries to actually keep an eye on are Russia, China, and India. While those countries have paid lip service to civilizing, your dealing with deeply engrained cultures with set gender roles that go back thousands of years (compared to how the US say set it's basic policies that lead to gender equality not even 300 years ago), as a result they play the whole "progressive society" card but in practice tend to wind up with very unfriendly environments where women are still expected to largely complement men, and having a woman is a sort of entitlement for a guy and a privilege for her. Hence why you still see a lot of human trafficking problems in those countries, shocking caste revelations (like how the servant of an Indian ambassador was being treated), and can even find girls willing to marry dudes they never met complete with a pre-nuptial even just to get out of the country (mail order bride modern equivalent). Those are the nations to watch, the Middle East is technically worse, but it doesn't even make pretensions of being progressive for the most part so it's on the table a lot more. Of course this has little to do with anything.
I really enjoyed reading this.
While I may or may not agree, it was certainly thought provoking.

Have a fine evening, good Sir.
 

ThreeName

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The Lunatic said:
No, I think we've come a long way in the freedom of expression of sexuality and to shame people for it would only push more towards repression of such things.
Actually this is all that needs to be said. Well done.
 

Chaos Isaac

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It depends on the content, theme, and other things.

Say, sexualized female characters in Silent Hill 2 makes sense, it's part of the theme.

But such sexualized characters don't fit in something like... Dark Souls, where a different brooding atmosphere and themes run dominant.

Then again, if you have a character who is sexual open, doesn't mind flaunting what she had and enjoys teasing people, she may dress provocatively. Same thing for a male character, who may be all like, "Ah yeah, check out mah abs."
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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I'm not fussed about the ones in fighting games if I'm honest for one reason: assuming they were a real person, and their skills were equal to the AI at it's highest, then each woman in all of those games would be capable of knocking 11 shades of shit out of about 90% of their playerbase.

As a random example, Hitomi from DoA is good looking lass who'll be a stunner when she grows up, but could probably break all of my ribs before I could set my stance.
 

CpT_x_Killsteal

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Short answer: No.

Long answer: Saying creators of fiction should be shamed for expressing their sexuality, sexual desires, sexual tastes, sex, anything, makes you sound like a thousand year old reverend.

The thing is, it's their work. It's their thoughts put onto paper, or made into a game. Saying they should feel ashamed for it is akin to calling it a thought crime. Someone else's creative work doesn't have to appeal to, or even include you, me, or anyone else.

@grassgremlin doesn't seem to be answering their own question. You've said what you prefer, but you don't say whether the creator should feel shame for making something outside of what you've stated. You also might want to edit the title.

And honestly? Half the bloody arguement for gay/trans rights is that it's fine as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. To try and shame someone over what they want to wank to just spits in the face of that (barring pornography that is produced against someone's will, i.e. child porn and non-roleplay rape porn).

Edit: wait, is Ken Panders, Ken Ashcorp? God I love his music.

Edit 2: Good topic by the way. I think it gets to the heart of what's been going on lateley
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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GloatingSwine said:
Therumancer said:
Not really to be honest. For starters, you'd be hard pressed to find female heroic fantasy characters, even those created by women, that tend to be unattractive, or fit in the "old or fat" mould.
I wouldn't, you know.

Know why?

I have a whole damn shelf full of Terry Pratchett books and he's been writing those characters probably since before you were alive.

The rest of your post basically TL;DRs into "You can't blame videogame designers for being unoriginal hacks who parrot prior cultural conventions without thinking about them".

But I can and am, they're unoriginal hacks, just because no-one else (except the people who have) has done it doesn't excuse them.


Also: Appeal to "realism" in deeply unrealistic settings does not work unless you are attempting satire.
You do realize that Terry Pratchett writes comedy right? His entire schtick is to make fun of traditional fantasy tropes. He thus does not apply to a discussion when people are trying to do heroic fantasy material straight on, or engaging in a different form of satire.

What's more Terry Pratchett's contributions to the field haven't ever managed to garner anything like mainstream appeal or attention despite the amount of time he's spent writing and the amount of material he's produced. Thus you do not see things attempting to sppeal to the mainstream seeking inspiration from his work. There HAVE been attempts over the years to break his stuff into the mainstream but it's mostly fallen flat, various made for TV movies and the like. What's more given how off kilter his stuff is intentionally his body of work hasn't been directly inspirational in the same way that guys like Howard, Moorcock, Leiber, Tolkien, or numerous others have been. Of course it could also be argued that the lack of mainstream acceptance is because he hasn't embraced the things that are needed to be accepted by the mainstream.

The point here being that if Pratchett and others achieved major success in the mainstream, then you'd see more things similar to what they have created influencing video games and the like. At the best they represent easter egg material if someone drops a reference into another body of work for those who also read the material. That hasn't happened though.

Otherwise if your going to bother to respond at all or try and make a point you shouldn't include a dismissive TL:DR, since I believe I spelled out pretty well why Terry Pratchett wouldn't fit the criteria. Of course then again nobody does, which is sort of my point.

As I also pointed out I'm also not saying that there aren't people who want things away from the traditional mould, there are, it's just that today's gaming industry is entirely based around mainstream success and going for the biggest demographic. Comparitively few games are produced. Yes it would be better if they stopped doing ALL AAA games and released a larger number of games at professional but lesser production values 'A, B, and C quality games' so to speak to cater to a wider array of people and their tastes, but that isn't how the business works as much as we'd all like it to be different. Since they go after the largest demographic, and most men and women like the kinds of characters your seeing, that is what they produce. Indeed the gaming industry will point out to previous eras where they did produce a lot of off kilter games, and I believe we even saw attempts at discworld, but simply put even when profitable these games did not generate enough profit to make them happy. Basically nobody wants to do fair work for fair pay here, everyone wants to grab onto the latest mainstream trends, strike it big, and make big bucks. Today they aren't going to make a lot of games, so if they decide to do a brawler with a female character it's a simple choice of having a character like Bayonetta who appeals to the vast majority of consumers and will make them tons of money, or making a more conservative action heroine who will appeal to less people and might make money, but not as much, and not as reliably. Basically there is a reason why we have a Bayonetta 2 and Team Ninja keeps making games in general, it's because the people who complain about the sexism, body image issues, and other things are a minority. Basically it's not just a bunch of repressed man-children that find this kind of thing appealing no matter how much a bunch of Social Justice Warriors and Feminists might wish it was otherwise. This kind of thing is heroic fantasy to healthy, normal, people and pretty much what most people want from the genera and their heroes. It's not even an issue where gaming needs to "grow up" really, it's a situation where the industry just needs to get a bit less greedy and start producing for some of the bigger and more vocal niches instead of everyone pig piling on the same kind of stuff. There is a place for action games that don't feature traditional "heroic fantasy" type ideal builds for their protagonists, indie developers have proven this via things like "Rochard", but overall the big business side of things doesn't think that piddly amount of profit is worth it's time.
 

grassgremlin

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Are we distinguishing between "calling out" and "shaming" in this? Because the latter seems tobe included in the former quite a bit. Simply mentioning this sort of thing is supposedly tantamount to shaming in the gaming community.
No. That's my fault then when it comes to interpretation. I do think the poll might be flawed.
 

MerlinCross

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deathbydeath said:
That being said sexualization can add interesting layers to a character's design, and create dissonance or reinforce themes.
Holy **** someone else knows about Eredan! I had no idea! COOL!

OT: I'm not sure if they should feel shamed or called out for it. My thoughts on it well I'm paraphrasing a quote right now because it's been awhile and I'm tired.

"Mai Shiranui looking the way she does? Awesome. EVERYONE looking like that? No, you can do better."
 

grassgremlin

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Therumancer said:
I'm not going to touch on your highly offensive response about ugly girls because . . . wow.
Guess you can't be attractive and a feminist?

Here's some reading material

http://exploringbelievability.blogspot.com/2012/04/how-to-write-empowering-female.html
http://exploringbelievability.blogspot.com/2012/01/character-design-style-of-substance.html
http://exploringbelievability.blogspot.com/2012/02/authorship-blame-and-neutrality.html

Read and Learn then we can debate some more.

The truth is the argument is mainly Laziness
 

grassgremlin

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DANGER- MUST SILENCE said:
This is 100% the wrong question
You raise a good point, but at this time I can't change the poll.
I honestly would like to change it to "should fans feel ashamed" but creating another poll on the same subject would be redundant for me.

Others are welcome to bring the issue to light, though.
 

Ikaruga33

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No one owes you anything, fuck off.
If I want to make a game with big titty ninjas, I can do that. It's my game, fuck off. I can choose to make the guys half naked buff dudes, but I can also choose not to.
No one has the right to act like the moral police and shame other people for their own creative choices.
 

L. Declis

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Well, my personal opinion is no.

And people who say men are not sexualised, I remember thinking that I spend a lot of time looking at Snake's ass in skin tight outfits, Vamp, Raiden (naked), most female characters have a cleavage, and most men spend their time shirtless. Haven't got a problem with it; I hope when I'm 80, I have an arse as nice as his.

However, the main reason I'm bothering to chip in is that I have recently become friends with four video game artists in China. I had a look at what they're drawing. Every woman has giant knockers, or you can see most of everything, and there isn't one you'd call objectively ugly.

I asked them why do they always draw both men and women sexy or attractive? Why never ugly ones?

They responded that there is no point, really. If you have control, and the look reflects what you want, then why should you choose ugly over pretty? May as well make the entire experience look as good as possible; you don't like crappy backgrounds, so why boring, ugly people?
 

Batou667

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Jux said:
Doesn't matter to who? It certainly matters to some of us.
Well... do you also spend time on IMDB's forums talking about how porn is stopping film being taken seriously? Do you go to book forums and talk about how 50 Shades of Grey is holding back the medium?

If not, then that suggests that it doesn't matter, at least not as much as some people are claiming. And, why is sexualisation in games considered something that affects the entire medium by association, while sexual sub-genres are allowed their niche when we're talking films, books, or music?

Jux said:
You say that so ominously. I'm not sure if anyone here has suggested these nefarious "corrective" measures (unless these "corrective" measures ammount to promoting a diversity of viewpoints in gaming, in which case I stand guilty as charged, and we can move on to the sentencing phase).
Perhaps I'm being phenomenally thick, but how will "calling out" and "shaming" developers for the inclusion of "problematic" material in games promote diversity? Seems to me that this will curtail diversity by promoting a single vision of what a morally-correct gaming industry ought to look like.

This is a major issue I've had with the liberal progressive element in gaming from Sarkeesian onwards. You can lobby to have elements you don't like removed from games, *or* you can push for more diversity. You can't achieve both at once because they contradict each other.

Jux said:
Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that sexuality in games is inherently bad (least of all me, considering the first line of my post is saying that sexuality in characters doesn't inherently bother me). However, I think the way it is sometimes portrayed (that is, contextually) is bad.
Fine, and everybody's entitled to an opinion. But why is this such a pressing issue that *must* be discussed ad nauseum, rather than something we just accept as a matter of personal taste? Case in point, Jim Sterling's "stupid sexy Bayonetta" video is five and a half minutes long, and he doesn't mention gameplay until the 4:30 mark. We have a HUGE, and I'd say disproportionate, obsession with analysing the life out of a handful of hot issues in gaming, and it's starting to detract from the actual games.

Jux said:
I'm pretty sure that no where did I presuppose that challenging cultural norms is at the top of the list of considerations when making a game, only that perhaps it should be a little higher on the list. Handwaving away criticism because 'it's just a game' is a disservice to the medium in my opinion. You may not care one lick, but don't presume to tell me what my priorities should be when looking at games in a critical way.
I'm being a realist. Perhaps some indies might be able to justify spending five evenings a week coding a text adventure with the goal of challenging the public perception of living with AIDS - and frikkin' fine, more power to them - but the big studios are there to make money. We should be neither surprised nor outraged when mainstream gaming caters to the mainstream and employs lowest-common-denominator tactics.

Jux said:
We're in a gaming forum. Bemoaning people talking about culture criticism of games in a gaming forum is senseless. Yes, I'm relatively sure most of us know that human trafficking is the bigger problem compared to depictions of human trafficking, but again, that doesn't mean that the way a game depicts such a heinous act should be free from a critical eye.
Sure, but looking at the wider context should inform us of whether a certain cause is worth getting on our soapboxes about, and if we're committed to fighting, where the battles are better off being fought. GamerGate has been a perfect example of both sides setting their sights too low.
 

Denamic

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Humans are sexual creatures. It's vital for the survival of our species. Sexualisation is not inherently bad. What matters is how you do it.
 

Clarkarius

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Creators should be concerned with creating stronger characters as a whole. Flat characters who only exist to be sex objects or back ground dressing are the result lazy writing and mindless audience pandering. Likewise if a character is properly developed and the subject matter is handled maturely certain design decisions can be justified if it makes sense for the character to dress in that manner within that world. But this can be a very fine line to tread and can still lead to controversy, as demonstrated by the whole Bayonetta debate, where a well developed character, whose sex is defining part of their character has received both praise and ire in equal measure.