Poll: Star Wars VII's lightsaber combat changes, yay or nay? (Spoilers)

[ThatOtherGirl]

The new lightsaber duel was fantastic. Exactly what it should have been.

As for the other discussions going on, I always find it really funny when people count Obi-wan vs Darth Vader as a real lightsaber duel. It wasn't actually a fight, we know this. Them even having the weapons out is a mere formality and both characters know it. There is no way Obi-wan walks away from the fight. Yeah, it wasn't great fight choreography, but that is not the point of the scene. They knew they couldn't make a good fight scene so they chose to instead make a good character scene. Frankly, the scene carries more weight than even the best lightsaber duel of the prequels. And then the actually good fights of episode 5 and 6 are great.

As for the few comments about Rey winning being dumb, makes perfect sense to me. Ren was literally shot in the gut by a weapon with the power of a grenade launcher. It had roughly the same effect as if someone had strapped a high explosive grenade to his side and set it off. It is only because of his powers that he wasn't blown to pieces on the spot. They went to great lengths to establish how powerful that bow caster was earlier in the movie for this exactly purpose. It literally sends men flying with the force of it's explosion, and they didn't even take a direct hit like Ren did.

Then he chases people for a few miles as he is literally bleeding out. That is his recklessness and foolishness again coming through. And then proceeds to get into a protracted sword fight. His entire force advantage was being used just to keep himself conscious and alive, which is why he never used his powers in a more direct manner to simply paralyze his opponent as we see him do several times though the movie.

I can easily buy that Finn and Rey together could defeat him in those circumstances. She didn't actually have to win the fight, all she had to do was survive until Ren died. His wound caused him to become ever weaker as he is literally dying as he fights (which is exactly what allows Rey to win.) Rey didn't win because she was powerful, Ren lost because of his own reckless stupidity.

 

[Ishigami]

[x] Not sure yet.

The fight choreography of the original trilogy was quite frankly horrible.
The fights kind of worked back then because they were basically just a visual representation of the conflict between the characters fighting.

I feel that this was lost during the prequels. Those fights were good too watch once but like anything in the prequels they didn't age well as they lacked substance and are painfully over-choreographed.
Which led to its own set of problems e.g. Darth Maul being killed by the slowest most foreseeable move in Star Wars history.

So yea I'm all good for a middle ground here. I'm just not sure yet if the new movies arrive there.
We haven't seen much and what we have seen is plagued by typical awful Hollywood action scene cutting.
Problem being that the actors probably can't sword fight for shit and obviously the director and camera men (or whoever is charge of cutting and framing too) are from Hollywood...

If you want to know what is wrong with that I recommend this little video:
Its about comedy but goes into framing and cutting for action scenes as well.

Anyway:
Lightsaber hits more like cuts of an actual blade? I'm okay with that.
Slower fights that are not over-choreographed? I'm okay with that.

So yea go ahead with that just fix your cutting...

 

[Pinkamena]

"better swordmanship"

No. The saber fights in the prequels were glorified dancing and fancy jumps. It looked fake as fuck and had absolutely none of the gravitas of the original trilogy.

 

[luckshot]

i think the difference between original trilogy vs prequels lightsaber fights is one of purpose and considering the movies are nearly different genres it isnt surprising

the originals were big character driven and the saber duels could have been replaced with chess games because those movies were character pieces more than action

while the prequels seem to be action movies for made to be accesible to children as well as adults, the saber battles were set pieces that were all about the action and not the characters

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Big yay from me. They actually felt physical and dangerous. But on the other hand, maybe too physical at times. And by that I mean that sometimes the actors seemed to move like they were swinging actual swords, not what are basically only handles with laser sticking out of them. In the prequel trilogy, however stupidly over-choreographed the fights were, they at least seemed to be fought with effectively weightless weapons in terms of how the fighters moved. But that aside, I hugely appreciate the change. I've seen some people bitching about how Ren gets his ass handed to him by a rookie, but Jeremy Jahns explained it best: the guy's been out of practice for years, he's not fully trained in using a lightsaber (if at all, he's so young), and he's gotten shot before the scene, multiple times if I remember correctly.

 

[Gatx]

My only complaint with Episode 7's handling of lightsaber combat is that it basically casualized it. Used to be only three types of people could use lightsabers in a fight and not risk killing themselves. Jedi, Sith, and Supreme Badasses. Now any chump or greenhorn can use em and stand their ground.

As far as Rey goes, she's got some natural/suppressed and hitherto unexplained talent for Jedi related things. Finn on the other hand, was part of the First Order and those stormtroopers are trained to fight Jedi. It'd be fair to say that he's at least familiar with the weapon.

And consider that Luke, being a mostly self-taught swordsman, isn't really on the level as any of the Old Republic Jedi, and that everyone since learned from him, well... Everyone in the movie is kind of a greenhorn.

The funny thing is, that's actually close to how a Sith blade probably SHOULD look. Most Sith use synthesized red crystals which are more than a little unstable and can actually (Rarely) cause an opponent's lightsaber to fizzle out.

I know Abrams stated that Kylo Ren crafted it himself, but I like to think it's an ancient Sith lightsaber recovered from Korriban. I also like to entertain the notion that Ren's mask actually belonged to Darth Revan.

That's one of the big issues I have with the saber being a major part of this whole DIY look Kylo Ren's got going on. He's supposed to be basically this Darth Vader copycat but doesn't have the official parts as it were, but EVERY JEDI/SITH builds their own lightsaber so there shouldn't be anything special about him making his own. Luke made his own for RotJ and even used synthesized crystals for it and it didn't turn out unstable looking, and presumably Luke would've taught all of his students.

All this is really telling me is that Kylo Ren is bad at making lightsabers.

Also I don't know how accurate the wiki is but apparently synthesized crystals aren't a thing anymore? Instead all lightsabers have "kyber" crystals.

 

[default]

I dunno what people are talking about. Empire's fight has really good choreography. Hope's was obviously not great, but it wasn't meant to be.

Personally, I prefer a little more restraint and weight to the movements and actions of the fighters. Deliberation, poise, execution, balance. It's far more suspenseful and entertaining to me than flashy superfluousness. The high-fantasy style whippy-flippy fighting of the prequels was kinda fun to watch but completely shallow and ridiculous. It feels like they aren't even trying to hit each other half the time. Pretty lame popcorn stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I like snappy anime style fighting and crazy over-the-top techniques too, but I feel it doesn't really fit into Star Wars.

I enjoyed the fight in Awakens. It was intense and solid, and the setting was beautiful.

I read a bit about lightsabers and the way the fights were designed for the original trilogy. Lucas wanted the sabers to have a real weight and presence to them. They weren't just metal handles with light sticks, they had some kind of gyroscopic force and weight that made them difficult and dangerous to handle. In the prequels they're just whipped around like reeds.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

They're okay. The new sound assets they use are pretty damn visceral, which I like, but it was otherwise okay.

What I will praise though is the fact that the fight at the end was well presented with little dialogue, and that Disney and co. did understand that what made the original trilogy's fights so engaging was the emotional value. Seeing Finn go 1 to 1 against Kylo Ren and honestly hold his own through sheer bravery and perseverance was pretty cool.

I am a bit miffed though that force powers now manifest as "whatever works for the writer" instead of just manipulating objects. It certainly made Rey's fight a bit boring(cause I mean, where's the limit?), but otherwise it was okay.

Not as flashy as the prequels, but I don't mind.

 

[Dizchu]

I prefer the swordplay in The Force Awakens to the swordplay in the prequels for the same reason I prefer the gunfights in Die Hard to the gunfights in Rambo or the car chase in Mad Max 2 to the chase in The Matrix Reloaded. Yes sometimes excessive camp and spectacle are great, but action is pointless if there's nothing at stake.

Not only are the fights in the prequels unrealistic, but I honestly couldn't care less about the characters involved. When Qui-Gon Jinn died I didn't really care. When Finn's back got sliced I genuinely felt invested. When Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in Episode III I can't say I felt much catharsis at all, while Luke defeating the same character in Episode VI felt like a genuine triumph.

Action needs context, ya know? If I don't care about the characters, I don't care about the fight. Simple as that.

 

[Pickles]

-snip-

I agree with what you said on the prequels, but I thought the fights from 5 and 6 were pretty good (especially 5).

...Im basically just quoting you because that video was awesome, cheers.

 

[HybridChangeling]

The prequels I guess were trying to make a point that the ways of the 'saber were lost in the Order 66 thing, and how Luke fought was an unrefined attempt. But the problem with that is Luke's fighting looked a lot better. It seemed like it wasn't a fight but a dance, and a bad one at that. There were little to no emotion or the prequels, meanwhile in the original you can feel and sense and see the emotion of both combatants, even the masked guy, through movement and sound. The lightsaber fights benefited the characters development, not the other way around, The RotJ fight showed us Luke's raw emotion and even his near fall to the Dark side in those furious swipes at Vader. Meanwhile 3 guys danced with swords in Phantom Menace and one died. We didn't see any emotion except Ewan trying his hardest to emote in a robotic movie.

Awakens went back to that in a way, retaining the idea of slight choreography, but also going back to the base fight itself. I like it.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Oh no, Episode VII has the best lightsaber fighting in the series. It's like original trilogy fighting sped up to lethal speed.

 

[Beliyal]

The lightsaber battle was excellent and I really really hope they keep them like this in the next two movies. Perhaps show the characters developing more skill, but don't go into the fake and senseless over-choreographed dancing of the prequels. The battle felt so real and savage, helped by all the sparks from lightsabers hitting the trees and hissing of snow. It finally looked like the lightsabers are actually there and everyone treats them like they are; we're no longer dealing with sticks that had the effect added later.

And the best part of the battle was the fact that I cared about the characters, knew their motives and felt their connection and stakes. The battle was a culmination of a great movie and a well-made introduction of all the characters and their interactions.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That's one of the big issues I have with the saber being a major part of this whole DIY look Kylo Ren's got going on. He's supposed to be basically this Darth Vader copycat but doesn't have the official parts as it were, but EVERY JEDI/SITH builds their own lightsaber so there shouldn't be anything special about him making his own. Luke made his own for RotJ and even used synthesized crystals for it and it didn't turn out unstable looking, and presumably Luke would've taught all of his students.

All this is really telling me is that Kylo Ren is bad at making lightsabers.

The crystal is cracked.

Spoiler

Spoiler

How "impressed" one is by simple visual storytelling like this will depend on how many films one has seen, of course, but it is worth noting that these kind of small tricks that inform characterization were utterly absent from the prequel trilogy, so it's nice to see them return.

PS - I also suspect he made this saber "on the sly" as it were, without Luke's assistance or instruction. I doubt Luke would have approved.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Its an old argument but I stand by that the duel on the second Death Star is better than all of the duels in the prequels put together. The episode VII fight felt like a return to form for me.

 

[FalloutJack]

There is no one way to make use of a light saber, except of course if that way gets part of you cut off. Anything goes, as long as you don't die, so to me it matters not.

 

[Schtimpy]

I felt like the most recent fight was the one with the least teeth to it. At least in the prequels it felt like if they hit with the saber, someone was losing a limb. Ren would have to be an amazing swordsman to make the cuts that he did. The aim and the precision needed to not cut Finn all the way through the back to the front is ridiculous. Remember, all the other lightsaber cuts on flesh in the series had no resistance.

Spoiler

Never thought I'd see someone get bitchslapped by a lightsaber.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I really don't want to nit pick, but this bothers me for some reason (Maybe because I saw Star Wars again yesterday in a fit of boredom).

At least in the prequels it felt like if they hit with the saber, someone was losing a limb.

I suppose that's why they never even tried to hit each other with lightsabers. I mean, the other guy may represent the other side of the force, which you hate with a passion, but actually cutting him is still a dick move. Better to swing completely wide to prevent injury.

Ren would have to be an amazing swordsman to make the cuts that he did.

Or, you know... and impatient one who just swung his sword around like a club.

The aim and the precision needed to not cut Finn all the way through the back to the front is ridiculous.

Or, you know... he just swung short. Because he's impatient.

Remember, all the other lightsaber cuts on flesh in the series had no resistance.

And there's zero resistance in Episode 7 as well. Actually, in all the prequels, lightsaber did[/d] meet resistance, marking them as the only movies to do so. Do you not remember them trying to cut through anything that wasn't a droid or a spindly looking piece of tech that look like it was designed to break in the first place?

Spoiler

This is in opposition to Episode 7, where Kylo Ren practically carves through a wall of computers in a fit of rage, and both Ren and Rey chop through 2 feet thick trees without even nothing them. And the lightsabers, as mentioned before, never find any resistance in flesh.

I feel like some people are reading too much into things. Or just not paying attention.

Thank you, AccursedTheory, this is what I was popping in to say myself. I'm really digging your posts today.

After 6 years and over 5000 post, I was bound to post something of quality eventually, despite my greatest efforts.

Alas, I'm back to posting complete trash, as you can see.

 

[Hoplon]

I feel like some people are reading too much into things. Or just not paying attention.

it's there own interpretation, i mean i don't know what they where on when they saw it. but I do believe they saw what they say.

Thank you, AccursedTheory, this is what I was popping in to say myself. I'm really digging your posts today.

After 6 years and over 5000 post, I was bound to post something of quality eventually, despite my greatest efforts.

Alas, I'm back to posting complete trash, as you can see.

it's terrible, i will have to write to my MP about it.

 

[Schtimpy]

So, it's a little out of order because I went with OT then prequel.

Ren would have to be an amazing swordsman to make the cuts that he did.

Or, you know... and impatient one who just swung his sword around like a club.

The aim and the precision needed to not cut Finn all the way through the back to the front is ridiculous.

Or, you know... he just swung short. Because he's impatient.

Ok, so half my bad. Just re-watched it. Ren made 2 cuts, one on Finn's shoulder with the crossguard, and the back slash. The back slash was in a arc so I believed the point did as well, but I realize now that the cut is legit. Funnily enough, that strike was the most skillful looking of all of Ren's strikes. It was a precise under-hand arc up, compared to the sloppy over-hand waving down he usually resorts to.

The other strikes that were in my mind were actually Rey's, not Ren's. Again, my bad. She hit him in the leg, the shoulder, and face. The shoulder was a poke, so I'm gonna ignore it. The leg and the face were both very light wounds (comparatively) and full swings, the face one even had a twirl before it! That's really hard to do with no training and no resistance. I couldn't do that. Although, it's not like she was mid battle, so she could aim. After she got her "Super-Sayian mind zen" thing (which gives strength!), she was toying with him. The fight was over.

So yeah, I was wrong, but they showed skill with how they wounded. I don't know. I'm not saying that the fighting wasn't brutal, it just had no teeth. Ren shouldn't have two legs.

Gotta admit Finn got wrecked though. He got his back ribs cut. Good thing Chewie brought the falcon around. Still, 5$ says the wound is never referenced again (no obvious shape damage).

I suppose that's why they never even tried to hit each other with lightsabers. I mean, the other guy may represent the other side of the force, which you hate with a passion, but actually cutting him is still a dick move. Better to swing completely wide to prevent injury.

I always looked at it like a fast and complicated game of chess. These guys have super powers. They probably would look ridiculous and flashy to us normies. I think the dumb fighting style they choose in the prequels was the most representative of what those fights would look like.

Remember, all the other lightsaber cuts on flesh in the series had no resistance.

And there's zero resistance in Episode 7 as well. Actually, in all the prequels, lightsaber did[/d] meet resistance, marking them as the only movies to do so. Do you not remember them trying to cut through anything that wasn't a droid or a spindly looking piece of tech that look like it was designed to break in the first place?

Spoiler

This is in opposition to Episode 7, where Kylo Ren practically carves through a wall of computers in a fit of rage, and both Ren and Rey chop through 2 feet thick trees without even nothing them. And the lightsabers, as mentioned before, never find any resistance in flesh.

Oh you mean the time he had to cut through the Blast Door, ya know, the one designed to protect against lasers? I always thought that he was holding it steady to melt through the door. If he wanted to, he could have written "Qui-gon was here" on the wall, but he had places to be. Even so, this is a side thing. We're not debating Lightsaber vs. Metal resistance. I'd consider Blast Doors as an exception anyway.

I feel like some people are reading too much into things. Or just not paying attention.

Alas, I'm back to posting complete trash, as you can see.

Nice. Seriously though, are you not having fun talking about lightsabers? I'm having fun.

...And I never understood the "reading to much into things' argument. Are we supposed to consume media in exactly the way the creater thought we should? All art is a pointless thought piece. Overthinking it is the point.

it's there own interpretation, i mean i don't know what they where on when they saw it. but I do believe they saw what they say.

Dude, like, that's just your opinion, man. Also, kinda offensive. I could just be an idiot.