I kill that 1 doctor only, I didn't even THINK about killing the other. At that point in time, all I care about is Ellie, everything and anything else is irrelevant
Marlene calls Joel out on growing to care for Ellie outright, pretty quick after he wakes up - probably why she lets him wake up at all actually - and it's self evident from the continued determination to "complete delivery" when no obvious reward is forthcoming to motivate him sufficiently for all the trouble (and removal from his own power/comfort base, etc) involved.tippy2k2 said:But there is a very logical explanation for why the end happened the way it did;Mylinkay Asdara said:Snip
The Fireflies were under the assumption that Joel didn't care and they didn't want to risk Ellie saying no to the surgery.
That's what it comes down to. Joel was bitter about taking the job in the first place and saw Ellie as nothing but a glorified Amazon package when the Fireflies last saw him. They have no clue that he has grown to care for Ellie (and some members wanted Joel killed anyway just in case but Marlene (the black lady) sided against that).
The other important part was the speed. I think the Fireflies were afraid Ellie would say No and so rather than risk her putting up a fight or their conscious getting the best of them (namely Marlene, the leader of the group), they decided not to risk it and get her right away.
Or at least that's how I interpreted the end events.
Don't forget, the fireflies, as far as I observed in the game, are losing grounds. They are losing bodies, grounds and influence. Heck, in Boston, they are dying if not outright dead midway through the game. Plus, the infection and other hazards make distance communication and supply operation FUBAR at best. They are DESPERATE, and a cure is a way to turn the situation in their favor. Once a cure is being found, there will be no shortage of recruitment and influence coming to fireflies.tippy2k2 said:But there is a very logical explanation for why the end happened the way it did;Mylinkay Asdara said:I only had to kill the one, and I was pretty horrified and pissed off about the whole way the last sequence plays out. I think the writing finally fell apart - or maybe the concept of making the statements they intended overshadowed considerations of cohesive thought.
In short - the whole final sequence never happens if they, oh, I don't know 1) drug Joel until the business is done, 2) let Joel see Ellie, fine and getting patched up, and tell him hey we need some help on the parameter, thus getting him out of the way while business is done - AND out of the hospital AND away from being able to muck things up, 3) waited a reasonable amount of time before proceeding with business so as to not have it be quite so obvious that cutting a kid up is the #1 priority of the day before even maybe letting her recover from nearly drowning - which just casts them as inhuman, I feel, for the sole purpose of smoothing the idea of killing them all on your way to to something entirely irrational. I refuse to believe Joel hadn't considered they wouldn't need her alive to study her brain. I refuse to believe that Ellie didn't at least suspect she'd be making the ultimate sacrifice at some point in the "study."
It just gets really irrational and poorly done all around - everyone's wearing the "stupid hat" so things can pretend to urgently make a great moment of decision happen that you will not be consulted about and probably disagree with. This is not so uncommon in games through the ages, but it is a focal point in this game for reasons I'm still unable to suss out.
The Fireflies were under the assumption that Joel didn't care and they didn't want to risk Ellie saying no to the surgery.
That's what it comes down to. Joel was bitter about taking the job in the first place and saw Ellie as nothing but a glorified Amazon package when the Fireflies last saw him. They have no clue that he has grown to care for Ellie (and some members wanted Joel killed anyway just in case but Marlene (the black lady) sided against that).
The other important part was the speed. I think the Fireflies were afraid Ellie would say No and so rather than risk her putting up a fight or their conscious getting the best of them (namely Marlene, the leader of the group), they decided not to risk it and get her right away.
Or at least that's how I interpreted the end events.
Ellie would have said yes. I got the impression she already knew but didn't tell Joel. That's why she was so quiet before the Giraffe part, when Joel was talking about teaching her guitar. That's why Ellie gave her "This can't all be for nothing" speech. And Joel knew she would say yes. That's why when Marlene called him out it, all he could do was look down. And that's why he lied to Ellie at the end.Sarge034 said:On a side note. I agreed with most of Joel's actions through the game, but the only reason I agree with the decision to get Ellie out of there is because she didn't have an active say in it. If they had just sat Joel and Ellie down and explained what they wanted to do I would not be able to support Joel, unless of course Ellie said no.
I know she said she would have, but who knows if she would have been able to follow through. My problem was that they didn't even ask her. They just decided they were going to take what they wanted, much like all of the bandits in the world. I did it on principle. I believe he lied to her at the end for a verity of reasons, but mostly because he knows she would have probably said yes.hollowzm said:Ellie would have said yes. I got the impression she already knew but didn't tell Joel. That's why she was so quiet before the Giraffe part, when Joel was talking about teaching her guitar. That's why Ellie gave her "This can't all be for nothing" speech. And Joel knew she would say yes. That's why when Marlene called him out it, all he could do was look down. And that's why he lied to Ellie at the end.
Joel did the wrong thing, a human thing, but the wrong thing. Joel killed a whole bunch of Fireflies and stole away the key to antidote to the infection in order to save Ellie. It's pretty in line with his past of doing bad things to save his brother. Joel's decision at the end is the writers giving approval for such an action. It's to make us think about how we, as humans, care more about the individuals in our lives than to larger numbers of other people.
The issue there is that if the Fireflies did talk to Ellie about it, it wouldn't have been any more than a Hobson's choice.Sarge034 said:I know she said she would have, but who knows if she would have been able to follow through. My problem was that they didn't even ask her. They just decided they were going to take what they wanted, much like all of the bandits in the world. I did it on principle. I believe he lied to her at the end for a verity of reasons, but mostly because he knows she would have probably said yes.
Now it is debatable if she was "the key" to anything. If you read the notes they say that there is a very low possibility of creating a cure from her. They just want to try because they have nothing to lose. And all this talk of "right" and "wrong" is very humorous. In a survival situation of this magnitude there is you, and the people you care for. Everyone else is secondary. There is no "right" or "wrong" there is only survival. Now you can have your personal morals but those are not universal.
The issue for me is that they didn't ask her. That in itself is enough to warrant an armed rescue/response. Like I said, I did it on principle. If they didn't let her go if she said no then they are no different than the bandits and cultists I had no qualms gunning down during the rest of the game. I would treat them no differently.Mikejames said:The issue there is that if the Fireflies did talk to Ellie about it, it wouldn't have been any more than a Hobson's choice.
While I do think that they owed it to Ellie to talk to her beforehand, I honestly don't see her refusing if she was put on the spot as the last hope of humanity. And even if she did, it's not like anyone would be ready to let her go if they had a chance to save countless lives with a cure.
I think it's pretty logical to assume the military would've just shot Ellie on sight, especially if the Fireflies of all people were the ones handing her over. The Fireflies have their own agenda and wouldn't risk whatever cure to fall into the hands of the military.Mylinkay Asdara said:I can see time being a factor - although? honestly I almost want to bring up the folly of putting an asset like Ellie into the hands of obviously underfunded "resistance" scientist hands rather than turning her over - if any party is going to just cut into her anyway, let's remember, apparently without any regard for her willingness - to maybe the government, which while obviously strained still seems functional in a military sense at least. Maybe they have to hurry before their installation is consumed by the infected - yet again, as we've seen with all the other institutions of theirs we have come across so far transversing the country. Maybe they are just over anxious to get something done, anything done, to justify their "resistance" against? I'm guessing cruelty to people under martial law? It isn't really ever made terribly clear what they are rebelling against for me to agree or disagree with their "cause."
Right, we are clearly meant to think that she'd be shot on sight - that little side-show of the line up of people getting checked and the people who check "infected" being summarily executed right there was not put in for no reason. Which is entirely legitimate. I mean, that's how you keep a quarantine zone free of the zombie/infected. It looks and seems brutally calculated and clear cut, but that's how you have to be if you want to survive the "20 years later" they managed.Casual Shinji said:I think it's pretty logical to assume the military would've just shot Ellie on sight, especially if the Fireflies of all people were the ones handing her over. The Fireflies have their own agenda and wouldn't risk whatever cure to fall into the hands of the military.Mylinkay Asdara said:Snip
As for the what happened in the hospital... You can say everyone suddenly put on their stupid hats, but it's not too strange to figure Marlene was under the assumption that Joel wasn't gonna go King Kong on the facility. Sure, she knew he was going to be trouble, but after all he's done for her she felt it right to at least tell him the truth. A slight misjudgement of his character on her behalf maybe, but nothing that indicates forced idiocy for plot reasons.
See, nothing Marlene or even Ellie could've said would've deterred Joel from his actions. Because in the end he doesn't do it for Ellie's sake, but for his own. If Marlene told Joel Ellie was fine and he should just go take a break or watch the parameter, Joel would've wanted to see Ellie. If Ellie was awake and told Joel the procedure was nothing special and she could handle it alone, Joel would've wanted to stay with her. If Marlene had kept him sedated till the operation was done, he still would've gone on a rampage. The only way they could've avoided everything was if they had killed Joel while he was unconscious. But again, Marlene felt it right to atleast tell Joel the truth.
It was a terrible situation no matter how it played out, but in the end, Joel killed dozens of people who were risking everything to stop a pandemic.Sarge034 said:So here's the question. Who is the bigger monster? The man who kills humans and dooms the human race to the status quo apocalypse to save a little girl, or the group that would kill a young girl without her permission in the hope to find a cure when they say they doubt they can even find one?
Those people weren't risking shit. Marlene is the only person on the Firefly side of things that gave a single fuck about Ellie as a person and she gave up. Not because there was a good chance to end the plague but because "The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... so be it." This was no great push for the cure. This was the actions of the helpless looking to do something, anything, to try and exert some control over the situation. And what if they had succeeded? The cure would have been used as a recruitment tool for the Firefly movement and as a weapon against the government.Mikejames said:It was a terrible situation no matter how it played out, but in the end, Joel killed dozens of people who were risking everything to end a pandemic.
Joel knew that she would have agreed to it, but Ellie gave him a reason to live. In the end, saving her and lying to keep her with him was more for his sake then for hers.
The perfect precision weapon for hostage situations!Gormech said:Um ... I used the flamethrower ... wasn't really sure how many were in there.