Not risking anything? I'm pretty sure more than half of the Fireflies had been killed by the time we actually found any. Now the cure obviously wouldn't be an overnight thing, but it's a first step. A foothold for communities to not lose more people like we lost Tess and Sam.Sarge034 said:Those people weren't risking shit. Marlene is the only person on the Firefly side of things that gave a single fuck about Ellie as a person and she gave up. Not because there was a good chance to end the plague but because "The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... so be it." This was no great push for the cure. This was the actions of the helpless looking to do something, anything, to try and exert some control over the situation. And what if they had succeeded? The cure would have been used as a recruitment tool for the Firefly movement and as a weapon against the government.
I believe Ellie probably would have said yes if they had asked her. I think she might have said yes if they actually explained the low chance of creating a cure. However once they started acting like bandits, just taking whatever they wanted, they got treated like bandits.
No they are not risking anything by killing Ellie. The Fireflies who died on the trip did so to protect Marlene. That could have happened at a quarantine zone, on the road, or at their base of operations. Killing Ellie was simply a case of welp, let's do something. There was no attempt to do live studies, or blood cultures, or anything. Just pop that ***** open and see what we see mentality.Mikejames said:Not risking anything? I'm pretty sure more than half of the Fireflies had been killed by the time we actually found any. Now the cure obviously wouldn't be an overnight thing, but it's a first step. A foothold for communities to not lose more people like we lost Tess and Sam.
The needs of the many... This is where the philosophical soul searching come into play. In some situations I would agree, but too much was not quite right for me to agree to that mentality in this case. They didn't talk to Joel/Ellie beforehand, there was next to no chance that they would be successful, and they would utilize the cure as a weapon.I do agree that it was a wrong not to talk to her beforehand, even if they wouldn't have accepted a refusal she deserved explanation, but it was still a sentiment of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. Meanwhile, Joel lies to a kid to maintain this perception of a world without hope, just so she can wander the wasteland indefinitely with him. It's an engaging story, and fitting to Joel's character, but he was no hero.
I was talking about their mission in general, being the only people who hadn't given up on finding a cure.Sarge034 said:No they are not risking anything by killing Ellie. The Fireflies who died on the trip did so to protect Marlene. That could have happened at a quarantine zone, on the road, or at their base of operations. Killing Ellie was simply a case of welp, let's do something. There was no attempt to do live studies, or blood cultures, or anything. Just pop that ***** open and see what we see mentality.
They didn't have to save Joel you know. Marlene had him resuscitated and told him what was going on right before he goes out of his way to kill her. And their messages are about hitting a brand new milestone with Ellie, not about taking a stab in the dark.The needs of the many... This is where the philosophical soul searching come into play. In some situations I would agree, but too much was not quite right for me to agree to that mentality in this case. They didn't talk to Joel/Ellie beforehand, there was next to no chance that they would be successful, and they would utilize the cure as a weapon.
Now, I don't think Joel lies to instill the perception of a world without hope. The lie was to keep her from running back into the arms of people who wanted to kill her, nullify the guilt and anger she would feel, and to keep her with him. I do believe they go live with Joel's brother so they are not wandering the wasteland indefinitely. I do think it fits Joel's character, but for different reasons than you seem to.
That's rather presumptuous seeing as we don't actually get any of the government's story in this matter. The Fireflies say the government has stopped and the bandits say they won't shoot me if I just come out with my hands up... Never trust a biased source.Mikejames said:I was talking about their mission in general, being the only people who hadn't given up on finding a cure.
"After years of wandering in circles we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back in control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain."
Yes, Marlene is the weak link in the Fireflies' plan. She cared for Ellie (a little) and she respected Joel enough to tell him what was going on to his face. Everyone else didn't give a fuck about Ellie and wanted to kill Joel. And went out of his way? If I remember correctly she blocks his path and dies like the rest.They didn't have to save Joel you know. Marlene had him resuscitated and told him what was going on right before he goes out of his way to kill her. And their messages are about hitting a brand new milestone with Ellie, not about taking a stab in the dark.
Irrelevant to my point.Joel made it clear that he was a survivalist. He robbed and murdered innocents long before he met Ellie. Now he has someone he cares about, but ultimately, it wasn't about what she would have wanted. It was about what Joel needed.
I assumed that the implication was that after 20 years the government had been reduced nothing but oppressive martial law over a few cities like Boston, but there's nothing really proving or disproving that there isn't any other group out there still trying.Sarge034 said:That's rather presumptuous seeing as we don't actually get any of the government's story in this matter. The Fireflies say the government has stopped and the bandits say they won't shoot me if I just come out with my hands up... Never trust a biased source.
There's no guarantees in medicine, but they make it out to be the best chance they'll ever have, to the point where the surgeon is willing to stand up to your shotgun with a fricking scalpel for it.*text*
They don't have a single idea as to why she's immune and when her blood is taken from her body the fungus starts to grow. So what would happen if they took her brain from her body I wonder... This is just throwing science at a wall and seeing if anything sticks.
Heh, can't imagine why they would have wanted to kill Joel.Yes, Marlene is the weak link in the Fireflies' plan. She cared for Ellie (a little) and she respected Joel enough to tell him what was going on to his face. Everyone else didn't give a fuck about Ellie and wanted to kill Joel.
She stood in his path arms raised, he shot her in the gut. She pleaded to be let go, he shot her in the head.And went out of his way? If I remember correctly she blocks his path and dies like the rest.
I didn't want to kill any of the doctors, but the game didn't let me just shoot the one blocking my way in the knee, so I had to kill him.Casual Shinji said:Nope, just the one guy with the scalpel blocking my way.
First time playing I didn't know I could actually kill him with said scalpel, so I just shot him with El Diablo.
Yeah, but after the Giraffes she says that Joel should teach her to swim after all this, so I don't think she did know she was going to be killed for the cure.hollowzm said:Ellie would have said yes. I got the impression she already knew but didn't tell Joel. That's why she was so quiet before the Giraffe part, when Joel was talking about teaching her guitar. That's why Ellie gave her "This can't all be for nothing" speech. And Joel knew she would say yes. That's why when Marlene called him out it, all he could do was look down. And that's why he lied to Ellie at the end.Sarge034 said:On a side note. I agreed with most of Joel's actions through the game, but the only reason I agree with the decision to get Ellie out of there is because she didn't have an active say in it. If they had just sat Joel and Ellie down and explained what they wanted to do I would not be able to support Joel, unless of course Ellie said no.
Actually, she stood in your path with a gun and then lowered it so she could take a hold of Ellie. As for finishing her off... Never leave a combat capable enemy on the battlefield and never let a fanatical enemy live. It never works out well. If he had let her live she would have healed up and spent the rest of her waking days searching for them. This would put the entire community at the power station at risk. It was just safer that way.Mikejames said:She stood in his path arms raised, he shot her in the gut. She pleaded to be let go, he shot her in the head.
Yeah, i remember Joel said something like "You would just come after her" before executing Marlene. Looks like he thougt of the same risk if he would let her live.Sarge034 said:Actually, she stood in your path with a gun and then lowered it so she could take a hold of Ellie. As for finishing her off... Never leave a combat capable enemy on the battlefield and never let a fanatical enemy live. It never works out well. If he had let her live she would have healed up and spent the rest of her waking days searching for them. This would put the entire community at the power station at risk. It was just safer that way.
It looks like everything else just comes down to personality types, personal morals, and beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.