Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

snip

So once again you're going to dismiss anything you disagree with because of reasons. Even when places like the WHO disagree with you. [http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/] Even if the WHO uses some pretty dumb examples and totally ignores trans people in that. Fine, sure, that's your right. Insulting me for it on the other hand by insinuating that I'm having hallucinations is a pure load. If every medical professional I've ever met can agree that being trans, and any/all of it's sub categories is actually a provable thing about gender variation and how gender identity is separate from biological sex. Yeah there isn't enough scientific proof and no reliable sources.

I've said this before and I'm saying it again. You can not agree with my stance, you're free to think what ever you want, but it's crossing the line when you make it a problem for someone else. Why? Because it's extremely rude.

captcha: dog days
Jeez captcha, you're telling me?

 

[TwistednMean]

So once again you're going to dismiss anything you disagree with because of reasons.

Yes. Those reasons being the utter lack of any scientific evidence supporting your case and you using completely irrelevant historical anecdotes about gender curiosities as proof of existence of a third (or, possibly, more) genders. You are illogical and your narrative is artificially constructed. Need I explain further why I dismiss it?

Even when places like the WHO disagree with you. [http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/] Even if the WHO uses some pretty dumb examples and totally ignores trans people in that.

WHO does not cite any sources to back up their claims. Which is convenient when there are none, right?

But hey! Look what else this particular article has to say!

In the United States (and most other countries), women earn significantly less money than men for similar work

I knew it! It is the Patriarchy at work again isn't it? Oh, wait, that claim is just pure lie with a pinch of weasel wording. WHO doesn't seem like a reliable source of information all of a sudden...

Fine, sure, that's your right. Insulting me for it on the other hand by insinuating that I'm having hallucinations is a pure load. If every medical professional I've ever met can agree that being trans, and any/all of it's sub categories is actually a provable thing about gender variation and how gender identity is separate from biological sex. Yeah there isn't enough scientific proof and no reliable sources.

I've said this before and I'm saying it again. You can not agree with my stance, you're free to think what ever you want, but it's crossing the line when you make it a problem for someone else. Why? Because it's extremely rude.

Wow, you sure looked long and hard for something to get insulted about. Anyways, it was never my intention to imply that you lack psychological health. You, in my opinion, choose to delude yourself into believing something exists when it does not. And since you belong to a group of similar minded individuals, you delude yourselves together. It is called group think.

While it is not a medical condition by any definition of the term it is certainly dangerous and it is a problem, because it strips you of the capacity for critical thinking and produces an unquestionable dogma into which you try to indoctrinate other people. It's like a cult, albeit a nonreligious one.

If the thought makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should reevaluate your beliefs from their very core. Then you can conclude whether I am right or merely a random transmisogynist troll. But merely getting offended will get you nowhere.

 

[Eliam_Dar]

Biologically, only two, and I am sorry for those who think otherwise, but this cannot be changed. There is no surgery that will change that, no amount of hormones, or treatment.
This is the main reason I reject the idea that gender binary is a social construct. It is not.
Having said that, if you are a man that feels like a woman, and desires to be addressed in that manner, I don't have any problem, and I will do that. In fact, I don't really mind to use any personal pronoum, and acknowledge any gender identity anyone desires (but don't expect from me to know at first sight).
Marry whoever you like, love anyone you want, as long as you are consenting adults go ahead.
I am a happily married straight man, and I don't see any reason mess in other people's lives.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Wow, you sure looked long and hard for something to get insulted about. Anyways, it was never my intention to imply that you lack psychological health. You, in my opinion, choose to delude yourself into believing something exists when it does not. And since you belong to a group of similar minded individuals, you delude yourselves together. It is called group think.

While it is not a medical condition by any definition of the term it is certainly dangerous and it is a problem, because it strips you of the capacity for critical thinking and produces an unquestionable dogma into which you try to indoctrinate other people. It's like a cult, albeit a nonreligious one.

If the thought makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should reevaluate your beliefs from their very core. Then you can conclude whether I am right or merely a random transmisogynist troll. But merely getting offended will get you nowhere.

I didn't have to look very hard, it was something that strikes a perpetually raw nerve, so I apologize if it seems like I went off on you, or anything. To be blatantly honest the nonacceptance isn't all from your particular stance either, transgender people do it to each other, we can get quite cliquish, so can gays and lesbians, hell in regards that last one, some of them refuse to believe in bisexuality.

At any rate I've thought critically about my gender identity probably far longer than you would believe possible, basically from the moment I became aware that boys and girls(males and females biologically speaking) were different. I'm not being dogmatic about something, once I did a bare bit of research on it, groupthink really doesn't apply. I was alone with my gender dysphoria for a very long time, and as I learned about the subject more and more I began to understand lots of things about it, and what fit me. I'm still learning things, but I do know that expressing myself honestly makes life easier, and people refusing to accept why and how I'm different doesn't make life easier.

If you wanna talk about critical thinking, I'm critical of a lot of ideas that float around in the LGBT community. I'm one of those weirdos that believe that there's more to sexuality and gender identity than simply "born that way", and on the same vein I don't buy the "it's a choice" line either. It's not a dogmatic blind faith in the way it's seen by "the group" for me. I see a deep complex set of things regarding sexuality and gender(not biological sex strictly speaking) interwoven with in humans from social behaviour, to identity, and even on the brain chemistry level. Which as far as I can tell is generally the consensus amongst people who are experts in these fields.

I don't see you as a transmisognyist, or really transphobic, even though that might how I could initially react. At the same time the lack of acceptance strike deep, I've been hurt emotionally by non-accepting attitudes quite a bit, so that sort of thing can instantly set me off. The thought doesn't make me uncomfortable with my personal views, but I am uncomfortable with people actively refusing to at least give me the barest acceptance of who I am. Like with you, I see it as ignorant, and the way you're framing disagreement to the point of exclusion out of hand seems stubbornly close minded. Call it indoctrination if you want, I just prefer a bare minimum of open mindedness, as opposed to the "nope, you're totally wrong, because of my opinion" stance. Though I probably come off that way, but then again that stance has been used as a weapon against me by close friends and family.

Anyways I hope that makes things a little clearer, at least as far as my stance is concerned.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Regarding gender.

No comment. I'm not touching any comments or any polls regarding gender.

Sex on the other hand.

When it comes to humans, a very much sexually dimorphic animal, there are only two sexes. XX, means female, and XY means male.

I doubt I'm ever going to use gender ever again when speaking English (my second language), because it's one of those words the philosophers, and tumblr tossers have descended upon and made essentially meaningless (especially with all those bogus "chosen pronouns" and utterly stupid "genders" like mayonnaise).

 

[Nailzzz]

I would be reluctant to really take the concept of gender too seriously. As far as I am aware the term was created by some hack doctor who attempted to legitimize the concept using child abuse and lies. The fact that so many supposed academics grabbed onto the idea's and hung on for dear life, rather than distance themselves from it over the fail state outcomes of the results of his experiments, if not even for moral reasons, is something I find really troubling.

If you're referring to the infamous "study" where the doctor essentially forced one of two male twins to transition then you are laughably incorrect. Gender as a concept has been around for a looooong time.

I'm pretty sure we aren't having a discussion about grammar. Not sure why you think it is relevant to the discussion. I suppose you could make the claim that since language can often determines the lines by which people tend to formulate ideas but it strikes me as reaching a bit for a justification in regards to this subject.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

So once again you're going to dismiss anything you disagree with because of reasons.

Yes. Those reasons being the utter lack of any scientific evidence supporting your case and you using completely irrelevant historical anecdotes about gender curiosities as proof of existence of a third (or, possibly, more) genders. You are illogical and your narrative is artificially constructed. Need I explain further why I dismiss it?

Even when places like the WHO disagree with you. [http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/] Even if the WHO uses some pretty dumb examples and totally ignores trans people in that.

WHO does not cite any sources to back up their claims. Which is convenient when there are none, right?

But hey! Look what else this particular article has to say!

In the United States (and most other countries), women earn significantly less money than men for similar work

I knew it! It is the Patriarchy at work again isn't it? Oh, wait, that claim is just pure lie with a pinch of weasel wording. WHO doesn't seem like a reliable source of information all of a sudden...

For the first part... Shit is that condescending way to state things.

On the other hand I kind of do agree with your of the WHO's assessment it is inherently flawed and shallow, then again the WHO isn't much of an organization to be taken seriously from what I've seem them do.

So here's a better more complete much more well referenced article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender]

 

[Piorn]

There is only biological gender, and for that you need one XX and one XY to get an offspring.
All other definitions are really just people drawing lines in the sand to define themselves, and ostracize all variations they don't like. And the more lines you draw, i.e. make up new genders and other Tumblrisms, the easier you make it to insult others.

 

[Someone Depressing]

Sex and gender are seperate things. Your sex is the gender you were assigned with at birth, and gender is another matter entirely: namely your "mental sex".

It's a very cultural, subjective issue. In the west we typically have two genders - male, and female - but in many eastern communities such as in Taiwan there are cultures that accept up to 5 genders. (ie, cis male, cis female, trans male, trans female, agender, among other examples)

So the answer is, no. There are more than 2 genders, but which genders are considered acceptable depends on your culture.

Call yourself whichever gender you want - pangender, dinosaur, America - as long as you simply aren't using nonbinary genders to mock people who don't consider themselves binary.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Genetically, yes. There are only two genders.

Psychologically, however, and culturally? That's a huge, if not a gigantic can of worms. Gender identity is being fractured and redefined and sometimes ignored outright, with people claiming they're asexual or happy sticking with an intersex nature or upbringing. Add to that the fact that the cultural aspects of each gender have blown up over the past few decades and are now gracing us with stay-at-home dads and super-active female soldiers out on the front lines, and you're left with the impression that genes no longer matter in the general discussion.

Considering, I'd join the emerging masses and say that your "gender" is whatever defines you on a deeply personal level. If you're a man who's trying to become the woman he feels he's always deserved to be, then good on you. If you're a woman who's trying to reach ideals of masculine physicality and you're at peace with your own process, then that's awesome. If you're an Otherkin or a furry or anything else in-between and you're confident enough to say that this isn't a phase and that it really does define you, then go for it. You have to be sure, though.

Just try and respect other people's perceptions of their own gender, though. The prefix "cis" is almost an insult as of late, and it's gone to the point where I wonder if we don't have to apologize for being in synch with our biological status, or even being born of a specific race.

I'm a cis white male; not a walking stereotype.

 

[Eliam_Dar]

Holy shit this thread has become just head-smackingly stupid.

The amount of people here who refuse to educate themselves on the ACTUAL ACADEMIC DEFINITIONS OF GENDER AND SEX and instead just parrot whatever bullshit they were taught growing up is truly sad. Sexual dimorphism exists, yes, all you idiots give yourself a cookie. Socially and anthropologically constructed gender roles and identities exist, and those are incredibly varied and not fully described by two terms. I don't give a fuck where you grew up. Take an anthropology class, learn about other cultures, and for fucks sake stop assuming that the western concept of binary gender is all there is.

And stop comparing trans individuals to otherkin. It's not clever, it's not a "gotcha" point. All you're doing is telling whoever you're talking to that your opinion isn't worth listening to. Literally all you're doing is complaining that someone else is complaining, and when they're complaining about having roughly quadruple the average suicide rate and depressingly high incidences of assault, you really just come off like an asshole.

That is an awful amount of anger. You have all the right to disagree, no need to call people names. Gender and Sex for me are intrinsically related. Gender roles were assigned to a particular biological sex for a reason. Hence biological dimorphism affects gender.
Unfortunately the "academic" definition of gender is very polluted by several agendas, so it is not a valid point

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Holy shit this thread has become just head-smackingly stupid.

The amount of people here who refuse to educate themselves on the ACTUAL ACADEMIC DEFINITIONS OF GENDER AND SEX and instead just parrot whatever bullshit they were taught growing up is truly sad. Sexual dimorphism exists, yes, all you idiots give yourself a cookie. Socially and anthropologically constructed gender roles and identities exist, and those are incredibly varied and not fully described by two terms. I don't give a fuck where you grew up. Take an anthropology class, learn about other cultures, and for fucks sake stop assuming that the western concept of binary gender is all there is.

And stop comparing trans individuals to otherkin. It's not clever, it's not a "gotcha" point. All you're doing is telling whoever you're talking to that your opinion isn't worth listening to. Literally all you're doing is complaining that someone else is complaining, and when they're complaining about having roughly quadruple the average suicide rate and depressingly high incidences of assault, you really just come off like an asshole.

That is an awful amount of anger. You have all the right to disagree, no need to call people names. Gender and Sex for me are intrinsically related. Gender roles were assigned to a particular biological sex for a reason. Hence biological dimorphism affects gender.
Unfortunately the "academic" definition of gender is very polluted by several agendas, so it is not a valid point

I'm curious as to what agendas you specifically mean there.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Unfortunately the "academic" definition of gender is very polluted by several agendas, so it is not a valid point

I guess this is why I find the hard science academia (physics, chemistry, biology, math) a lot more credible.

There's less politics involved in it. There are a lot more "hard" answers, and stuff can be calculated, and shown to be a certain thing regardless of any philosophical or political opinions.

 

[Vivi22]

To me it's as simple as biology, but there's no harm in humoring people and accepting they can identify with whatever they feel like.

Not even close. Gender as a technical term refers to identity, biologically using sex is more accurate term.

I meant exactly what I said, o judger of closeness: to me they're one and the same, but I believe in humoring people.

Ones biological sex has little to nothing to do with gender which is a social construct. You may have meant what you said, but what you said was incorrect.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

I'd say there are only two genders. Many, many, many forms of sexuality - but only two genders.

 

[Callate]

Usual disclaimer:

The idea that "Gender" refers to things like psychological self-image, social status, or behavior/societal expectation, and not referring to biological/physiological status, is of very recent coinage, something that often gets overlooked. Most dictionaries still regard "sex" and "gender" as being interchangeable. It is certainly useful for some purposes to recognize "transsex/transsexual" and "transgender" as being significantly different things, but it's wise to try to be clear in one's usage and not leap to rip the head off of anyone who is using what you feel to be "wrong" terminology.

Carry on.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

To me it's as simple as biology, but there's no harm in humoring people and accepting they can identify with whatever they feel like.

Not even close. Gender as a technical term refers to identity, biologically using sex is more accurate term.

I meant exactly what I said, o judger of closeness: to me they're one and the same, but I believe in humoring people.

Ones biological sex has little to nothing to do with gender which is a social construct. You may have meant what you said, but what you said was incorrect.

On the other hand, I think you're incorrect. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

To me it's as simple as biology, but there's no harm in humoring people and accepting they can identify with whatever they feel like.

Not even close. Gender as a technical term refers to identity, biologically using sex is more accurate term.

I meant exactly what I said, o judger of closeness: to me they're one and the same, but I believe in humoring people.

Ones biological sex has little to nothing to do with gender which is a social construct. You may have meant what you said, but what you said was incorrect.

On the other hand, I think you're incorrect. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Well there is enough evidence academically and in the medical and psychological fields that say you're incorrect. If you disagree with the experts, then your position is impossible to back up except from a personal standpoint, which can end up make you looking backwards. No offence intended there.

 

[The_Darkness]

SNIP

On the other hand, I think you're incorrect. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

At the end of the day, words mean whatever the people using them want them to mean. Many people do use the words 'gender' and 'sex' interchangeably.

However, it can be considered more useful if sex refers to being biologically male/female/intersex, whereas gender refers to one's mental perception of they are male/female/transgender.

Take, for example, recorded cases of people feeling that they were born in the wrong body. If we define gender and sex as above, then we can say "this person's sex is male, but their gender is female" to explain the situation. However, if we treat the two words as interchangeable, then we're forced to use slightly clumsier sentences such as "This person is physically male, but they are mentally female." We can do more with language if the two words don't mean exactly the same thing.

(This relates to Callate's post above - it's only recently that this idea has caught on within the English language.)

If we do accept gender as an individual's mental perception of who they are (for convenience within language), then we can further include people whose gender doesn't match up to male or female - leading us to a gender spectrum rather than a gender binary.

***

On a side note, it's worth noting that brain scans have detected differences between cisgender people (whose gender and sex match up) and those who are transgender (gender and sex don't match up). More on that here [http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html].

 

[Dizchu]

Is it not biologically accurate to call someone with a penis a man and someone with a vagina a woman?

"Man" and "woman" are words humans invented to describe certain groups of people. Biological sex is not treated merely as one variable like eye colour, hair colour, skin colour etc. It has a certain cultural significance that brings with it societal expectations. If these expectations did not exist, nobody would have a problem with being called "man" or "woman" because it'd be like calling someone a "blonde" or "redhead", ie. it's a trait that isn't seen as the foundation of someone's entire identity. But because these societal expectations exist, inevitably there will be people who don't adhere to what is commonly expected of biological males/females.

If we lived in a utopia where zero sexism existed and zero expectations were conjured up when learning about the biological sex of a person, this discussion wouldn't be happening. But we don't, sexual dimorphism is celebrated and because it is so ingrained in our culture, transgender people will inevitably exist.

You can be biologically essentialist about this if you want, but you have to understand that "man" and "woman" as words and concepts carry far much more weight than just "was born with a penis/was born with a vagina". It'd be disingenuous to suggest otherwise.